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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 404 responses total. |
richard
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response 124 of 404:
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Dec 30 18:47 UTC 2005 |
no klg, the aclu is there to protect YOUR rights. The ACLU is
dedicated to making sure that NOBODY violates klg's Constitutionally
protected rights. If Klg's rights are violated, the ACLU will be there
to defend them. He doesn't even need to ask.
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edina
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response 125 of 404:
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Dec 30 18:59 UTC 2005 |
I always wonder about people who smack the ACLU and then end up needing them.
Do you think they have their crow served rare?
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richard
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response 126 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:01 UTC 2005 |
Aruba said:
"We need to work on finding the things we
can (mostly) all agree on, and do something about them."
Thats a nice sentiment, but don't you see that the problem is that
there is not enough middle ground left anymore. We compromise entirely
too much IMO on core beliefs and stands. It gets to the point where,
simply to get along, we can't take strong stands on anything anymore.
I think Aruba's approach is friendlier, but what you end up is people
lacking the strength of convictions for the simple fact that they have
trained themselves to not express them for fear of being impolite. It
is bad for this country. Too little gets accomplished in Washington
these days simply because there is so little middle ground and so many
people determined only to stand on middle ground. It is better to take
a stand then trying to appease everyone.
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edina
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response 127 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:05 UTC 2005 |
Please excuse me while I bang my head against the wall.
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bhelliom
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response 128 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:08 UTC 2005 |
How convenient. We have a comment where people are going to agree, and
KLG comes along and starts the same debate over again. Trolling, are
we?
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tod
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response 129 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:10 UTC 2005 |
re #125
I've crossed paths with the ACLU a few times and neither time was beneficial.
Unfortunately, most of their volunteers do pro-bono work begrudgingly, imo.
I think folks can get better results by going straight to the Civil Rights
Division of the DoJ or else the Dept of Labor if they find their Reps or
Senators are not able to produce results.
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bhelliom
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response 130 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:13 UTC 2005 |
resP:129 Out of curiosity, is it possible that some ACLU chapters are
better than others?
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marcvh
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response 131 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:24 UTC 2005 |
The ACLU is not a "free legal aid" society for anybody and everybody
who has been wronged and has a need; they tend to concentrate their
limited resources on cases which have the potential to be important not
just to the parties involved but in establishing precedents and
guidelines for many others.
Now that the warrantless wiretap program has happened (getting back to
the topic) one of those things may involve legal challenges to this
program. My guess is that anybody facing criminal charges on anything
at all related to terrorism will try to claim that the evidence against
them stems from an unlawful search and therefore is not admissable, at
which point we may get to see if the courts agree that Bush's actions
were lawful. It's also possible that civil litigation would be
initiated against the president.
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richard
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response 132 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:25 UTC 2005 |
In fact Aruba's comments about "finding things we all agree on" is the
big problem the left has. The one thing I respect about the right wing
is they show the strength of their convictions. There are too many
people who are good left leaning thinkers-- like Aruba-- in the
Democratic party who try so hard to come across as centerists that they
back away from almost any view that is controversial or reflects a
definite ideological slant. This is what Howard Dean was talking about
when he ran for President, that so many Democrats have been appeasers
for so long that the party was losing its identity.
Put simply, if those of us one one side of the ideological sphere spend
so much time looking for middle ground, while those on the other side
are solidly staking out their side and not the middle, whose side comes
out stronger?
I'd respect people who show the strength of their ideological
convictions more than those who try to cowtow to everybody by hogging
the center line. I'm more comfortable, for instance, with Judge Alito
as a Supreme Court nominee being an open right wing ideologue than if
he was a closeted whatever pretending to be a centerist, refusing to
express his true thoughts. I'm sick of centerists. I want people to
wear their convictions on their shirtsleeves, to BE who they are.
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bhelliom
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response 133 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:26 UTC 2005 |
Richard. I disgaree. The right looks like they're all in agreement
because the ones that don't agree aren't encourage to speak.
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richard
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response 134 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:30 UTC 2005 |
re #133 I think the right looks like they are more in agreement because
there are fewer people willing to be centerists on the right. Or to
put it more bluntly, there are in my opinion fewer people on the right
who are all that open minded. Believe me, if the left tows the center
line and tries to be all things to all people, it will lose the battle
to the right every time. You have to stake your side, you have to be
willing to stand on your side and say I'm PROUD to be on my side, and
that I'm not going to compromise the validity of my side by going to
the middle and acting like there's a center ground that really doesn't
exist.
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edina
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response 135 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:31 UTC 2005 |
Wow Richard - you just totally came across as a political bigot.
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richard
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response 136 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:34 UTC 2005 |
re #135 edina, in as much as politics is a war of ideologies, what do
you expect? racists think that non-racists are bigots too you know.
If you aren't racist against blacks, a racist thinks YOU are a bigot.
Its what happens when you take a principled position that you know that
others disagree with.
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tod
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response 137 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:35 UTC 2005 |
re #130
Absolutely
re #131
The ACLU is not a "free legal aid" society for anybody and everybody
who has been wronged and has a need; they tend to concentrate their
limited resources on cases which have the potential to be important not
just to the parties involved but in establishing precedents and
guidelines for many others.
Gee, really?
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richard
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response 138 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:39 UTC 2005 |
I mean what would you rather have, a country where nobody stands for
anything, and everybody looks and sounds the same? Thats the middle
ground utopia, where we can all be friends. And where none of us has
any real identity. Too many people in this country do not stand up for
their beliefs, and do not bother to define themselves. The tendency to
the center leads to political apathy, and political apathy is the
single most dangerous thing in the world. It leads to people becoming
de-sensitized to the world's political struggles.
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tod
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response 139 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:43 UTC 2005 |
Spewing hearsay and hollywood bullshit also leads to apathy. You know, like
when people claim the NSA is using satellites to see if our shoes are laced
left over right and other weird paranoid delusions.
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marcvh
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response 140 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:47 UTC 2005 |
The problem that some on the left (including Richard, apparently) have
is sticking to just one topic at a time, rather than rambling about
anything and everything all at once. It's like someone showing up at
an anti-Iraq-war rally with a "Free Mumia" sign; it distracts focus and
serves only to piss people off for no good reason.
This can happen on the right as well, of course, but it seems less
endemic there.
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richard
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response 141 of 404:
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Dec 30 19:50 UTC 2005 |
Why did Ronald Reagan do so well in the 80's? It was because he didn't
try to be a centerist, he stood his ground on the right wing side and
people-- even those on the left-- appreciated the strength of his
convictions. Mondale and Dukakis were liberals who tried to tow the
center line, who tried to be the princes of the middle ground, all
things to all people, and ended up looking-- when compared to Reagan--
as if they didn't have nearly the same strength of conviction. In the
last election, Bush stood on stronger ground on the right than Kerry
did on the left. Democrats lose trying to be centerists.
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richard
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response 142 of 404:
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Dec 30 20:12 UTC 2005 |
Do you know how bad it is? On the left, a lot of people who are
liberals won't even CALL themselves "liberals" anymore. People like
Aruba will call themselves "progressives" instead, because they are
trying as hard as they can to be friends, and look friendly, to
everyone else in the room.
You have a right wing doing all these things, such as this wiretapping,
and a left wing thats afraid of its own shadow. Its pathetic. Why
can't we be passionate about our own views, and care enough about
others that we want them to see the validity of our views? Why do we
have to seek the middle ground and only talk about those few things we
actually agree on? That is not healthy political debate!
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gull
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response 143 of 404:
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Dec 30 20:18 UTC 2005 |
Re resp:106: Sorry if I misread. It seemed to me you were
backtracking...saying, essentially, that you thought Bush should be
impeached...but then again, maybe he had good reasons for doing what he
did...not like that evil Clinton, who would have sold a nuke to
terrorists for his own benefit, given the chance.
I do appreciate that you're taking on someone who would normally be
your ally, here. I was just taken aback by the sudden veer into
reflexive Clinton-bashing.
Re resp:123: He'd probably quietly accept the help, without changing
his public views, just like Rush Limbaugh. Good thing for them the
ACLU doesn't bear grudges.
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edina
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response 144 of 404:
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Dec 30 20:22 UTC 2005 |
Jesus Christ Richard - shut up.
First off, how DARE you be so insulting to people who are trying to figure
out just where they stand when it comes to their politics. Do you have any
clue what it's like to be part of a party that half the time you don't agree
with them? Because believe it or not, Richard, I am a Democrat and I don't
agree half the time. And the GOP is no better.
Secondly, you spout off about political empathy. You want to know something,
NYC boy - try living out here. Try living somewhere where national politics
is very far off the radar. Try it. 97% of the people here don't care about
wiretapping. They don't. And you want to know something else? I'm somewhat
apathetic towards politics because I am busy. I'm busy at work doing a job
that believe it or not, does bear on civil rights. So there's 60 hours of
my time being part of something that will hopefully produce some good. (Or
at least get rid of a corrupt public official.) And when I'm not working,
I'm volunteering with three teenagers as their advocate. So there's another
5-10 hours a week of my life.
So you know what? If I don't always have the time or energy to be reading
all of the left/right wing newspapers everyone is so fond of, try not to
accuse me of apathy - it's insulting.
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richard
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response 145 of 404:
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Dec 30 20:29 UTC 2005 |
edina I didn't accuse you specifically of apathy. Don't take
everything so personally. I was speaking of general terms, and in
general terms, there IS a lot of voter apathy out there. As someone
who works actively on election day at the polls, I am discouraged by
the continuing decline in voter turnout. There is a war, a political
war, going on in this country and the good guys are losing because too
many people on our side are sitting it out. Bush shouldn't be
president right now. But not enough people on our side voted. That is
my opinion.
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edina
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response 146 of 404:
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Dec 30 20:36 UTC 2005 |
Don't take it personally? Come off it. You are so absolutely infuriating
in your tones of absolute that I find it impossible to NOT take it personally.
I'll never understand how people just don't seem to get it. Want to change
the world? Go to law school and learn how to write laws and either become
a politician or work for one, or go to business school and make a lot of money
so you can contribute to causes you believe in.
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tod
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response 147 of 404:
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Dec 30 21:14 UTC 2005 |
I like the way my cousin is doing it: He is a surgeon with a Marine
detachment. He sends me real stories about humanity that the media won't
touch because it paints the Iraq war for what it is. War.
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richard
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response 148 of 404:
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Dec 30 22:04 UTC 2005 |
re #147 in other words, you want war stories that are just about the
war, as opposed to whether the war is right or wrong or the political
nature of the war? You must like Tom Clancy novels. :)
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