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Grex > Agorage > #6: Member initative: Allow members to host images | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 183 responses total. |
steve
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response 117 of 183:
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Sep 21 16:33 UTC 2006 |
Something that perhaps isn't well understood is that once the
word gets out that Grex "allows" graphical images, people will
plop them over here and give out passwords to others to share
them. This is *already* happening, it's been going on for a
long time. To me allowing graphical images means more than
just Apache giving them out.
Just like the number of people who bring over psybnc, bnc,
eggdrop, mech stuff, irc, etc.
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nharmon
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response 118 of 183:
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Sep 21 17:36 UTC 2006 |
> Not wanting to offer more special things for members is one of the core
> founding principles of Grex.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=core+founding+principles&as_sitesearch=cy
bersp
ace.org
Guess how many results?
Where exactly can we find these core founding principles? Or are we
talking in the abstract about how Ken feels in regarding to special
member priviledges?
So far, the reasons for not allowing members to post images have not
been compelling. John Remmers once told me that users on Grex should be
as free as possible without allowing them to infringe on other people's
usage. This was part of the justification for removing the idle limits.
I feel that at this point Grex has the resources and common-carrier
status to allow all users to post images. And I really think that making
us "different" from "The Other System" is not enough of a reason to open
this freedom to users.
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steve
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response 119 of 183:
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Sep 21 18:27 UTC 2006 |
You are completely ignoring the fact that we have a limit on the
amount of bandwidth we can use for our $100/month charge. Allowing
graphical items for all users is going to ramp up our usage, and if
we get 'successful', we'll wind up paying more, to host web stuff.
I believe we get 50G per month right now, and we're somewhere
around 30% of that. I know that as grex has gotten more stable
usage has climbed up. Now, this is a policy question, that of how
much we're willing to pay for more bandwidth, used largely because
of graphical files. Will we hit the limit that causes us to pay
more for bandwidth? I'm not sure, but we need to think about
that. The next increment of bandwidth would be another $50/month
I believe, or $600/year.
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nharmon
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response 120 of 183:
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Sep 21 19:01 UTC 2006 |
Well, if this is what the membership wants then, who are me or you to
say otherwise?
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steve
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response 121 of 183:
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Sep 21 19:57 UTC 2006 |
I agree, the membership will determine this.
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scholar
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response 122 of 183:
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Sep 22 04:29 UTC 2006 |
re. 119: I've already said this a couple times, but again, please realize
that the official proposal would only allow *members* to host images.
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cross
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response 123 of 183:
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Sep 22 19:30 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #117; I don't think there's any evidence of that. Maybe five or
six years ago that would have been true, but not necessarily now. And surely
no one is *denied* graphical images on grex now, there's just not much that
they can do with them.
Regarding #119; You said we're using about 30% of our bandwidth. Where do
you get that number from? I'd like to see the numbers....
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cross
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response 124 of 183:
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Sep 22 19:32 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #112; Then the apache daemon notices that they're no longer in the
members group and doesn't show their images. No one deletes anything. If
they rejoin, then apache notices that they're in members again and shows their
images. That's that.
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steve
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response 125 of 183:
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Sep 22 21:40 UTC 2006 |
Dan, I remove images from Grex every day, and have at least
a couple of conversations (or attempts if they don't respond)
about Grex not being a file repository. Please don't say
that, its simply not true. It might be a little less common
today, maybe. But we still see people ftping files to Grex
and then ftping them back out again, which surprises me since
we there are so many ftp server packages out there for Windows,
etc.
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steve
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response 126 of 183:
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Sep 22 21:41 UTC 2006 |
The 30% number came from John A, one of the admins at Provide.
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cross
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response 127 of 183:
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Sep 22 21:53 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #125; Steve, what evidence is there that if grex allowed members
to host image files on their personal web pages that hordes of users would
then start trying to move hordes of files here? Clearly they already put
them here expecting them to work, and are suprised when they don't.
And what, precisely, is wrong with users using grex to move files around?
That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Regarding #126; Another way of looking at that is that, if we're only using
30%, then we're wasting the other 70%. I say we have 70% of our bandwidth
to lay around with.
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naftee
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response 128 of 183:
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Sep 22 21:57 UTC 2006 |
re 125 Why are you removing them when they aren't going to be available for
viewing ?
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steve
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response 129 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:03 UTC 2006 |
Sigh. Think about, just a little before squawking, would you?
Each FTP requires bandwitdh.
Each FTP uses space.
Most people after using Grex to move files around leave them
here, not cleaning up after themselves.
I should note that wget plays a role here too, as does mail. People
bring stuff to Grex and move it elsewhere.
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steve
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response 130 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:19 UTC 2006 |
Re #127. Several times in the past we've been an upswing in the
amount of stuff brought here. In talking with a few people who'd
been doing that, they'd said they'd heard that Grex allowed such
things (file storage, bots, warez, ...). Of course none of them
ever bothered to read what newuser told them. Based on this I don't
think its unreasonable to assume that we'll have more of the same.
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cross
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response 131 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:20 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #129; I have thought about it, and I don't appreciate such quippy
statements. But enough about that.
Step back for a minute: you're anticipating a huge influx of users putting
huge amounts of image files on grex. I'm asking what you're basing that on.
I'm saying that, those users who want to try and use grex for images are
already transfering them here. There aren't likely to be many more if we turn
images on. Where do the hordes of users who are going to stampede to grex
to display images going to come from? Why aren't they here already?
And what's the big deal if someone uses grex to move some files around? Isn't
grex's purpose to serve its users? So what if they use a little of bandwidth
and space? We have plenty of both to spare, and they're capped by quotas
anyway.
If we're really worried about the web server using too much bandwidth, then
set up PF to put a limit on it.
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cross
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response 132 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:21 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #130; So it's already happened that the "word" has gotten out, and
yet grex is still here and still has bandwidth and space to spare.
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steve
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response 133 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:31 UTC 2006 |
This touches on what the people who make up Grex want Grex to be.
Are we some kind if ISP, or conferencing system, both?
Once Grex ceased being a local BBS with phone lines, it changed.
Most of the users have never been in the conferences, be that good
or bad. My problem is that there are fewer systems like us around
today, putting pressue on us. People seeking a place for bot tools
are never ending. People who don't know how to set up FTP servers
abound, and use us. These trends are going to continue, or I should
say that I see no reason for them to ramp down. Given that, I'd
like to keep policies in place that won't encourage more file/net
bandwidth use.
I'm not sure I'm going to respond to this item any more. Everything
I say you pounce on Dan, and I'm tired of trying to explain myself.
Since it appears that most people reading this item aren't jumping
up and down to support this, I don't think I can do any more to
state myself. You can (and I'm sure will) continue to question
what I'm saying and thats fine. When this comes to a vote we'll
see what the membership thinks.
Others are free to speak up on this.
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cross
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response 134 of 183:
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Sep 22 22:39 UTC 2006 |
Very well, Steve. I'm sorry that you feel that my asking you to justify
your opinions is "pouncing." However, I just see it as debate, and without
debate, we can't make reasonable decisions. If one cannot justify one's
opinions, then one has no position to stand on. If one cannot change one's
opinions if they cannot be supported, then well, I don't really know what
to say.
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cyklone
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response 135 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:03 UTC 2006 |
#133 is about as close as I've seen you come to admitting your arguments
are essentially cultural and not technical. Even so, I find your earlier
statement "Given that, I'd like to keep policies in place that won't
encourage more file/net bandwidth use." downright bizarre. Exactly what DO
you suggest be done with that bandwidth you're hording like a pot of gold?
I mean you can basically recycle that ridiculous statement anytime someone
proposes ANYTHING that will increase bandwidth use. Are you opposed to new
users in general? Don't new users mean using up more file/net bandwidth
regardless of whether or not you allow pictures?
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steve
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response 136 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:05 UTC 2006 |
Dan, no matter what I say, you're there questioning more. How long
should I try and state myself? I note that you are the only one doing
this. I just don't see what good I'm going to do for anyone, sitting
here talking about this with you on what seems to be an endless basis.
Grex folk reading this, please speak up. Am I all wet? Are you
reading this wondering, and want to know more? Is this discussion
helping you? I would really like to know.
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steve
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response 137 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:07 UTC 2006 |
No cyklone, I'm not againsr new users. But when thousands (and yes, I
mean thousands) of eggdrops, psybnc items, etc are dropped on to Grex,
when people use Grex for various things like file shuffling, and aren't
a part of any of Grex's culture, I have to wonder. Does that make
sense (not that you may agree with it) what I'm trying to get at?
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tod
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response 138 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:08 UTC 2006 |
It is helping me. I will continue to be a contributing member of Grex
regardless of this discussion. I do feel that there is a valid point about
the necessity of protecting Grex from harmful imagery. On the contrary to
that, though; there is something to be said about being able to log into Grex
and make a fully functional webpage in addition to participating in BBS and
party. More members aren't a bad idea.
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cross
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response 139 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:19 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #136; Steve, with respect, take my continued questioning as a sign
that I am not convinced by your arguments and do not support your position.
And since cyklone just posted, empirically I am not the only one (not to
mention others who have posted in this thread).
Regarding #137; Perhaps it is us who are not really a part of grex's culture
anymore, Steve.
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cyklone
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response 140 of 183:
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Sep 22 23:22 UTC 2006 |
Re #137: You're right that I don't agree, but I do think you are clear. It
IS a cultural issue with you and you would prefer something that encourages
more people to post in bbs as opposed to those who don't. I can't say I
wouldn't like to see more new blood in bbs, either. OTOH, maybe just trying
new things temporarily would provide a better test for what would actually
happen, instead of just worrying. As for Tod's concern about photos, if Grex
is so hung up on ID'ing members, and only members can post pictures, then it
seems to me the potential problems are pretty remote. Again, try it and see.
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charcat
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response 141 of 183:
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Sep 23 00:10 UTC 2006 |
I just don't understand all the teeth being pulled about this, Grex
never hosted pictures, other places do (I have mine posted in 3 free
places, no problems). I understand the problems that the staff would
like to avoid and I think it's reasonable.
just my 2 cents worth =^o.-^=
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