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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 170 responses total. |
iggy
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response 105 of 170:
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Jan 9 15:32 UTC 2004 |
I would like to inject a couple of points here.
The mnet agora conference has been mentioned several times on grex. It had
been mentioned in the grex agora conference. Jokes were even made about
certain users making a stampede and pushing each other out of the way
so they could be the first to parody a particular response. This was all
done out in the open. If you chose to remain oblivious and not go check it
out for yourself, then your outrage at such ignorance is baffling.
Also, I'm one of you. Like it or not. I'm not an evil mnet interloper. I've
been a grexer off and on ever since it went online. I remember sitting
at a big information gathering at an ann arbor park. (island?).
My personality more closely meshes in with the "typical" mnetter rather
than the "typical" grexer.. but you cannot deny that I am a longstanding
user.
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bhelliom
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response 106 of 170:
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Jan 9 15:33 UTC 2004 |
This is indicative of what grex has become, regardless of whether there
is an "outside user" or an "insider". Grex is now a collection of
little cliques, and the most damaging war has been this petty tug of war
between the townies and the outsiders. It's become absolutely juvenile.
Outsiders won't listen to insiders because they're considered old
guard, insiders won't listen to outsiders because they're rocking the
boat.
This whole debacle has come about because no one will get off their
asses and actually make a policy decision. Valerie isn't just getting
reamed because of her own actions, Valerie is getting reamed and has
left because Grex has been talking but has done nothing about actually
formulating a policy. When it is on the table, Grex dithers endlessly
until technology changes enough to make it temporarily moot, or until
people forget about it. This whole community should be ashamed of this.
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other
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response 107 of 170:
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Jan 9 16:18 UTC 2004 |
#106 is wrong on several major points, and is not generally a
rational response, but is rather obviously emotionally inspired
hyperbole. Sorry, Syl, but you're off the mark on this.
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mynxcat
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response 108 of 170:
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Jan 9 16:35 UTC 2004 |
I'll explain what other didn't elaborate on.
Syl, this time, believe it or not, it is not a "townie" vs "outsider"
issue. Most people involved were very much "townies". It's more of an
mnet vs grex issue, if you can call it that. There are two sets of
views to what happened, one saying that the parodies are no big deal,
and one saying that they are. (And then you have smaller factions who
say they see both sides, or they think this whole thing is beneath
them... but I digress). I know you've always had an issue with people
bringing up the local vs non-local thing, and we've never agreed on
that, but the discussion at hand had nothing to do with it.
And as for Valerie leaving due to a lack of a policy, there was a
policy in place, albeit unwritten, maybe, which she chose to ignore
because it didn't help her accomplish what she wanted to. While I can
understand what she did, and why she did it, it still doesn't mean it
was right. It was still against grex policy. If you don't agree with
policy, you fight to change it, or you leave. (Of course she had other
reasons to leave too, I'm sure)
As for the whole "grex dithers endlessly", I agree with you, but that
wasn't the issue here.
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bhelliom
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response 109 of 170:
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Jan 9 17:41 UTC 2004 |
No, I realize this is not a townie versus and outside issue. I can
read. That much is obvious. But you cannot deny that the vehemence is a
spill over from this event, and that part of the problem inherent in the
system is cliquishness and the appearance of it. There are already
people here that are pointing those kind of fingers.
FWIW, I include myself in the "out to be ashamed category."
Yes, dithering is the issue. We have had countless debates over policy,
and this is a huge result of that. We are, after another seeming
crisis, debating something that should have been solved a long time ago.
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albaugh
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response 110 of 170:
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Jan 9 17:59 UTC 2004 |
"Dithering over policy" - perhaps. But policy is not likely what most people
want to discuss on a forum like grex. Most policies wouldn't be necessary
except that a few rotten apples do bad things, and then you need something
in place to prevent or address a future recurrence.
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gull
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response 111 of 170:
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Jan 9 18:43 UTC 2004 |
Re resp:109: I think you're off the mark on this. But I can see why
you'd get that impression if you already have a preconcieved notion that
Grex is hostile to outsiders.
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jep
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response 112 of 170:
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Jan 9 19:31 UTC 2004 |
According to comments in Valerie's new on-line baby diary (which she
gave permission to readers to talk about on Grex, btw), she removed her
text from Grex because she didn't want to be parodied on M-Net.
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mynxcat
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response 113 of 170:
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Jan 9 19:46 UTC 2004 |
A little late for that. We were done parodying it when she moved it
off-site.
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keesan
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response 114 of 170:
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Jan 9 19:56 UTC 2004 |
Can't mnetters still parody Valerie's new online baby diary? They just can't
make comments in it.
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mynxcat
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response 115 of 170:
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Jan 9 20:20 UTC 2004 |
That would be against the principles of the parody conference. We
parody what happens on grex. We're not really interested in what they
post outside of grex.
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cross
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response 116 of 170:
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Jan 9 21:57 UTC 2004 |
Regarding #102; I'm sorry, then it's a gross misunderstanding on my part.
btw- for reference, I was drawing from this, which you did write, among
other comments:
> - If you carry that argument to completion, then that gives us a world
> where nobody ever exposes themselves in public. Nobody writes an
> autobiography, or even a novel based on their intimate experiences,
> unless their goal is to set themselves forth as a subject for
> derision. I do not believe that that would be a desirable goal.
> Thus I prefer to approach the culture of attack as a negative force
> that decent people oppose, not as something to declare inevitable
> and resign yourself to.
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naftee
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response 117 of 170:
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Jan 9 23:46 UTC 2004 |
re 106 "rocking the boat" heh. Don't disturb my coffee!
But I agree. It's hard to get the collective GreX force to make a
decision. Everyone keeps talking about what they would have done.
re 111 Yeah , xenophobia!
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aruba
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response 118 of 170:
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Jan 10 00:44 UTC 2004 |
I agree with that quote of Jan's in #116.
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cyklone
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response 119 of 170:
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Jan 10 01:27 UTC 2004 |
Not true. I've already addressed this on mnet, so let me say it again
here: the fact that people have been living public lives and writing
autobiographies for hundreds of years, all while subject to public
criticism and even (*gasp*) parody, shows just how silly such "if you
carry that argument to completion" assertions are. To raise the issue in
the context of a public bbs that purports to support free speech is even
more ludicrous, though of course free speech includes the right to make
demonstrably false statements.
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cmcgee
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response 120 of 170:
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Jan 10 02:15 UTC 2004 |
Let me try to craft a different point of view of "dithering over policy".
Consensus is difficult to reach when the starting coversations reveal opposite
points of view, hardened through long use, coming from participants in the
decision-making process. One of the strengths of this process is, however,
that an organization does not "lurch from side to side" if different factions
gain temporary acendancy.
We have had a workable compromise between these points of view for a number
of years. We even worked through a slight change in the policy when we
allowed staff to "close" the scribbled/expurgated log.
We all knew there were extreme differences, but we had a level of trust
between the factions that allowed Grex to function smoothly. Now the behavior
of one emotionally distraught staff member has triggered emotionally-charged
responses, with some factions trying to enflame *all* sides. The presence
of participants who are shouting of "action!" all the time makes it very
difficult for the quiet, slower process to happen.
I think Jan's idea of removing potentially harmful items from public access
while this debate went on was brilliant. I don't know what to think of
Valerie's removal of Jep's items.
What some people see as "dithering over policy" I view as sane and rational
response to try to heal a system that is used to a more civil conversation
style. Right now people are drawing lines in the sand and behaving in
defensive and hostile ways. People who normally don't behave this way are
saying things that have the tone "and I'll leave if Grex doesn't publically
adopt a policy that -I- agree with, right away".
I don't think any policy is the issue at the moment. What I see as the issue
is whether Grex has the strength and will to right itself, and try to develop
better tools to come to trust and consensus. We must assume that we have some
new, permanent participants who are disruptive and "make trouble" for our way
of doing things. If we can't find a new process that accounts for their
participation, the barbarians will indeed win the battle.
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jmsaul
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response 121 of 170:
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Jan 10 04:49 UTC 2004 |
I don't think that characterizing some of the participants in the discussion
as "barbarians" is consistent with the general intent of your response, but I
agree with the rest of it.
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willcome
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response 122 of 170:
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Jan 10 08:41 UTC 2004 |
And, really, if you carry the analogy to its natural and earthly conclusion,
it'd be the CHRISTIANS who're fucking up Grex.
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jaklumen
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response 123 of 170:
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Jan 10 12:17 UTC 2004 |
resp:105 sho' nuff.
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naftee
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response 124 of 170:
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Jan 10 17:05 UTC 2004 |
re 120
>People who normally don't behave this way
Well, gee golly, maybe they are behaving "hostile" now because for once, there
is something profoundly serious to get worked up about? Maybe we don't have
the time to sit around and act slowly! jep already proved this.
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janc
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response 125 of 170:
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Jan 10 19:34 UTC 2004 |
Ah, I understood Dan to have said that I said that that kind of behavior
made community impossible. Which isn't true. M-Net has a perfectly
good community, that is much enjoyed by many people. There are limits
on what can be posted in such a community, as there are in any kind of
community. Personally I'd rather be where community standards place
limits on how nasty you can be, then where community standards place
limits on how openly you can talk about your own life. But a lot of
people seem to think the former is a horrid infringement on free speech,
while the latter is perfectly fine and only sensible.
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mary
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response 126 of 170:
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Jan 10 21:05 UTC 2004 |
If were talking about peer pressure, I agree Jan.
But if we're talking whole item censorship or moderated conferences just
so some folks can feel more comfortable talking about putting breast milk
in their eye, then I'd say it's a bad tradeoff.
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tod
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response 127 of 170:
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Jan 10 23:41 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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jp2
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response 128 of 170:
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Jan 10 23:49 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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cross
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response 129 of 170:
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Jan 11 03:46 UTC 2004 |
Regarding #125; Yeah, my bad; I think I misinterpreted the point you were
trying to make.
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