|
Grex > Coop8 > #120: Regarding a breach of etiquette | |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 138 responses total. |
dang
|
|
response 100 of 138:
| 
Oct 20 21:25 UTC 1996 |
The thing is, people in b) can't vote. Also, we can't give outgoing internet
to unidentified people and still keep our "good neighbor" rep on the internet.
|
mta
|
|
response 101 of 138:
|
Oct 21 00:44 UTC 1996 |
I'm extremely leary of any move to change the by-laws unless it's to solve
a serious problem that can't be reslved in any other way. I just don't see
that here.
re: #93
Even if such members cant have the right tovote, there seems to be
little reason not to go ahead and throw in the usual other perks so
they are getting something for their money.
*sigh* You really don't get it, do you? Memeber ship in Cyberspace
Communications/GREX isn't a purchase of services of any sort. Members are
not members because of what we expect to "get for our money". Membership in
GREX is a donation to a worthy cause because we members realize that someone
has to pay the light and phone bills.
|
brighn
|
|
response 102 of 138:
|
Oct 21 00:53 UTC 1996 |
Then why only have a membership class that gets perks, Misti?
Crate a membership class in which the only thing the person gets is warm
fuzzies and a title.
(er, create, not crate)
|
arthurp
|
|
response 103 of 138:
|
Oct 21 01:34 UTC 1996 |
That class exists already. I've been in it from time to time. All you have
to do is funnel money to grex one way or another.
|
mta
|
|
response 104 of 138:
|
Oct 21 03:24 UTC 1996 |
As far as I can tell, Membership has only one "perq' and that is voting. For
the moment, because telnet is such a severely limited commodity it's
restricted to to members ... but I don't like that and am glad that the staff
id working to find ways to open that up to any user willing to provide
identification. For the record, I don't, haven't, and shan't make use of
telnet capability until it's open to any identified user. (To clarify, I mean
outgoing telnet, because, of course, in coming is already opne to anyone.)
I think voting is appropriately limited only to members. After all,only
people who have a real stake in GREXes future ought to be given a voice in
that future. (If phone lines and electricity were free, I'd want to see
voting privileges determined differently, too. But they're, regretabbly, not
free.
|
popcorn
|
|
response 105 of 138:
|
Oct 21 05:22 UTC 1996 |
Re 104: Misti, Grex doesn't have any plans to open up telnet to anybody who
sends in ID. People had different opinions on whether or not that was a good
idea, so it was very deliberately (with a lot of discussion here in co-op)
*not* specified in the member vote that decided which services are open to
which users.
|
scg
|
|
response 106 of 138:
|
Oct 21 05:43 UTC 1996 |
I need to look up the text of the member vote, but I think it said that we
would open up more services if our resources permitted, or maybe even if we
had sufficient bandwidth. If we did have a really fast Net connection, I can
see that meaning that we would open up outbound telnet to everybody. I now
think that would be a bad idea, although I thought it was a good idea at the
time, since I don't think we can afford the load of effectively becoming a
free terminal server, as MichNet used to be. I'm not sure what the best
policy on that is, since I'm rather comfortable with requiring membership for
things other than voting, but at the same time I do think that providing
something that is a community service really cheaply is probably better than
not providing it all.
|
rcurl
|
|
response 107 of 138:
|
Oct 21 06:29 UTC 1996 |
"I think voting is appropriately limited only to members." That's required
by law (which does not mean that there can't be other classes of membership
that are non-voting).
|
remmers
|
|
response 108 of 138:
|
Oct 21 09:37 UTC 1996 |
Here's the whole proposal that was adopted by the members. It's in the
file /usr/local/grexdoc/archives/prvote/prvote02. Note the 4th from the
last paragraph, which I've emphasized by putting a * at the beginning
of each line. It clearly cites restricted bandwidth as the reason
for limiting certain services to members, and although it doesn't
*require* opening them up to others as bandwidth improves, the concept
is certainly there that it would be a reasonable thing to do.
----------
PROPOSAL:
The following internet services enrich the Grex community, do not use
much bandwidth, and do not provide much potential for internet
mischief; therefore they should be made available to all:
Finger
Whois
Ping
Mail (incoming and outgoing)
Incoming Usenet News
Incoming Telnet
Incoming FTP
Incoming Lynx
Talk (and it's various permutations)
Archie
Veronica
WAIS
Gopher (with all Telnet capabilities disabled)
The following services will be restricted to VERIFIED GREX MEMBERS and
VERIFIED GREX USERS (however the board shall define that term) because of
the potential for world-wide mischief:
Outgoing Usenet News
The following services will be restricted to VERIFIED GREX MEMBERS in good
standing, because these services utilize a lot of bandwidth, offer
less of a benefit to the Grex community as a whole, and/or hold the
potential for system cracking and other undesirable activities:
Outgoing FTP
Outgoing Telnet
Outgoing Lynx
Gopher (with telnet capability enabled.)
IRC
*Being that the major objection to open access for the above
*services is the lack of available bandwidth on Grex's internet
*link, It is understood that any of these services may be made
*available to all VERIFIED USERS as well as VERIFIED MEMBERS as soon as Grex
*acquires a link of suitable power and robustness.
In order to maintain the integrity of both Grex, and of the Internet as a
whole, the Grex board shall have the power to restrict or deny internet
access to groups or individuals who pose a security risk, or who engage in
inappropriate behavior (as defined by the Grex board).
The board may also make modifications to this proposal without resorting
to a member vote in the case of an emergency situation, or if some
provision of this proposal proves to be technically impossible to implement.
VOTE RESULTS:
Results were posted on Wednesday, August 17, 1994.
49 out of 80 eligible voters cast ballots. The Tally: Yes 36 No 13
The proposal passed.
|
popcorn
|
|
response 109 of 138:
|
Oct 21 11:41 UTC 1996 |
Right, and if you remember the discussion that led up to the wording of the
proposal, the asterisked paragraph was deliberately left vague because there
were people who strongly objected to the idea of opening up telnet to
non-members. The idea was to leave the decision up to the discretion of
whoever is on the board at that time.
|
chelsea
|
|
response 110 of 138:
|
Oct 21 12:48 UTC 1996 |
I'll find the item where this vote was discussed and
bring it back so folks can have another look.
If bandwidth is no longer a problem necessitating
outbound telnet be restricted to members only (as
srw has said) then the issue should be revoted
as a membership perk. Clean and clear.
|
davel
|
|
response 111 of 138:
|
Oct 22 13:36 UTC 1996 |
BTW, just food for thought - kind of meaningless references for those of you
not near Ann Arbor, I'm afraid. There was an article recently in the
_A2_Observer_ about WUOM's new format. To summarize briefly, as public radio
stations go WUOM has been fairly poor in attracting members. So those who
make these decisions basically turned it (almost overnight, though there had
been creep in this direction before) from a mostly-classical-music station
to an almost-all-news-&-talk station - citing evidence that people are more
willing to give to support this, & the number of similar music-oriented
stations in the area.
It *may* work, for all I know. But I've been listening at work to WKAR
in East Lansing (even during their fundraising <sigh>), and the number of
new contributors who've commented that they're switching their support
from WUOM is large enough to be worth mentioning. I wonder just how fast
WUOM will find *new* talk-lovers to contribute ...
(Application to Grex is left as an exercise for the reader.)
|
popcorn
|
|
response 112 of 138:
|
Oct 22 21:01 UTC 1996 |
I actually do like the new WUOM format better than the old one. But I'm
saddened that they fired a large portion of their staff with very little
notice.
|
scg
|
|
response 113 of 138:
|
Oct 22 22:21 UTC 1996 |
I'll admit to somewhat prefering their new format as well, but that still
doesn't justify completely changing their programming with no notice the week
after finishing a major fund raising drive.
|
srw
|
|
response 114 of 138:
|
Oct 23 05:22 UTC 1996 |
I hate their new format, and don't listen any more, but that
is neither here nor there.
I think that having a membership perq is a good thing. I
believe that there is no consensus that we should open up
outgoing telnet to verified non-members. Some people may want
that, but I am not the only one who does not. The wording in
that vote was indeed contested, as Valerie indicated. I
believe that the wording does not reflect the consensus
thinking at the time. The entire motion carried, but the
individual paragraphs were not voted on. *I* voted for it, but
obviously do not support that paragraph. I didn't consider
that paragraph binding then, and I do not now, because of the
vagueness.
I think it is useful for Grex to offer a small suite of
advantages to members. It is a way of thanking them, and also
offers a small inducement to those who are thinking of
supporting the system. The really important features of the
system are still free, and should stay that way. I really
think there is a *huge* difference between charging for
services (which is a business contract), and the awarding of
perqs in exchange for a donation (which to me is more like
getting a tote bag when you give enough to PBS).
That tote bag may not be worth much, but you can't get it from
PBS unless you donate to them. I just cannot fathom the harm
in it. If bandwidth is ever no longer an issue, then I shall
be happy to see it put to a vote again, as Mary suggested, and
we can decide the merit of offering membership perqs clean and
clear.
|
kaplan
|
|
response 115 of 138:
|
Oct 23 22:48 UTC 1996 |
Bandwidth will ALWAYS be an issue as long as we are giving it away. Even if
grex had a link 10 or 100 times faster than the current one, there are enough
people out there who would like to use grex as a free maildrop if only it
weren't so slow. It may take some time for people around the net to discover
grex, but given time we can saturate any non-infinate net link (and any
non-infinate CPU too for that matter).
|
remmers
|
|
response 116 of 138:
|
Oct 31 13:39 UTC 1996 |
Re #114, last paragraph: Tote bags are not an integral part of
PBS's service. You don't get access to extra TV programs when
you donate to PBS. I'd see no harm in Grex giving a free coffee
mug or Grex t-shirt to people who donate either. That's hardly
the same thing as giving extra access to Grex's computer
facilities.
|
srw
|
|
response 117 of 138:
|
Nov 4 06:29 UTC 1996 |
I don't think telnet or ftp are any more an integral part of Grex's service
than T-shirts or coffee mugs.
The only difference is that it is electronic in nature. I think that is, or
should be, of no consequence whatever. I really think it is the same as a
tote bag. (perhaps worth more, or perhaps less, depending on the lag)
|
remmers
|
|
response 118 of 138:
|
Nov 4 10:17 UTC 1996 |
No, I think telnet and ftp would be like getting access to extra
programming for donating to PBS. But PBS doesn't do that.
|
srw
|
|
response 119 of 138:
|
Nov 4 17:28 UTC 1996 |
I guess we just disagree on this question. I don't think we are
convincing each other.
|
remmers
|
|
response 120 of 138:
|
Nov 4 17:47 UTC 1996 |
Hey, I don't need to convince you. You have only one vote. :)
|
chelsea
|
|
response 121 of 138:
|
Nov 5 00:07 UTC 1996 |
According to the IRS, in a letter from the IRS to Grex, dated
January 30, 1995, there is a difference between coffee mugs
and Internet service as a membership perk.
Quoted from this letter:
"If a member receives a benefit for his membership
fees such as the ability to post news and to connect
to the Internet, their membership fee would not
be considered a donation."
For what it's worth.
|
ajax
|
|
response 122 of 138:
|
Nov 5 00:22 UTC 1996 |
It doesn't say anything about coffee mugs (or other non-service
benefits), so it doesn't seem to really indicate a *difference*
between the two. The portion of a donation returned in the form
of a coffee mug is deducted from the amount of the donation for
reporting to the IRS, so that's not a donation either. In that
sense, the benefits seem like they probably are treated the same
by the IRS. Interesting how we can read the same text and come
to completely opposite conclusions. :-)
|
chelsea
|
|
response 123 of 138:
|
Nov 5 01:53 UTC 1996 |
The tax code specifically mentions what "gifts" an organization
may give to donors without it counting against the donation.
Mugs, pencils, pens, t-shirts, newsletters, and a few other
miscellaneous. items I can't recall.
I could dig out the exact wording, but not tonight. But I don't
really think the IRS would think of Internet access as a trivial
token gift. In fact, that's just what they said in the letter. ;-)
|
chelsea
|
|
response 124 of 138:
|
Nov 5 02:36 UTC 1996 |
Oh, what the heck, I found it without any trouble at all.
For ajax, IRS tax code quoted by The Ernst and Young Tax Guide.
A charity may advise donors that the full amount of a
contribution is deductible if either of the following
applies:
1. The fair market value of all the benefits
received in conjunction with the contribution
is not more than the lesser of 2% of the payment
or $64.
2. The contribution is more than $32 and the only
benefits received in connection with the payment
are token items, such as bookmarks, calendars,
key chains, mugs, posters, tee-shirts, and so forth,
bearing the organization's name or logo. (i.e., "low
cost articles" with a cost not in excess of $6.40).
Why we are talking about deductible gifts when we aren't an applicable
501(c)3 organization is beyond me. But some may find it relevant when
trying to equate the value of Internet perks to the value of a mug. Or
maybe not. ;-).
|