response 101 of 143:

Oct 8 08:21 UTC 1996

Kerouac sometimes does have good points to make, but he can also be
irritating.  It sometimes seems like he considers it a point of honor to
"win" all arguments, no matter the cost, and that's sad.  One of the
hardest things to do in computer conferencing is to *listen* to what
other people say, and *understand* what they are really saying (and not
what you would like them to say.) And yet, that's really the most
important part of computer conferencing; not what you change in others,
but what you can change in yourself.

The thing that really turned me off about libertarians is when I
realized they were really modern day feudalists.  They are very keen on
a week central government, & just about as keen on the right to bear
firearms, and so forth.  I have never seen any libertarian seem the
least bit concerned about the dangers of large corporations.  That's
fascinating because it is in fact increasingly hard to tell the
difference between the policies of big government and big business.  The
result of all that would seem to me to be a sort of corporate feudalism,
or perhaps even a kind of corporate fascism, a prospect I don't find at
all appealing.  It is an interesting (and certainly worthwhile) problem
to consider how to get people to play fair.  Unfortunately, I don't
think the libertarians are any closer than anyone else to finding an
answer.  I don't know what any of this really has to do with Grex
however, except insomuch as Grex is, in many ways, the antithesis of big
business.  (And, no, I don't blame Rob for voting libertarian.  It's a
free country after all.  I just wish I could find someone out there that
*I* could feel good voting for...)

One person above thought we were in some danger of becoming "like"
m-net.  I'm not sure there's a real danger.  Certainly, one of the first
signs that something was maybe going wrong on m-net, was when the policy
cf became very polarized between two very different ideals of what m-net
should be like.  It was hardly the kind of split you see here in coop,
of kerouac vs.  everyone else - it was in fact a roughly 50/50% split,
which meant there was really no way for anyone to win.  (Indeed, however
much kerouac argues here, I've got to believe we're doing *something*
right that kerouac values, or else why would he bother to be here at
all?)

I'm not sure it's really fair to "throw stones" at arbornet here, but I
do think there are some very significant and important differences
between arbornet & grex, which I think make it in fact very unlikely
that grex will go the way of arbornet (at least, not anytime soon):

A very basic, yet I think key difference is that we've always been
*extremely* open about our accounting process.  We've always posted what
our expenses and income were, right online for anyone to look at.
Keeping all that stuff in the open keeps everyone honest.

We've also always emphasized that donating to the system is for "the
good of the system",n not for individual selfish benefit.  We back that
up by (for instance) not having separate patron lines.  We also
emphasize the egalitarian nature of grex by having having one simple and
affordable rate that buys membership rights.

We have a very warm and close relationship between the grex board and
grex staff.  There is a lot of trust between the two groups.  That's
important because one of the most important things the board does is to
provide a supportive environment to get technical things done.  I also
believe, in the end, the membership can take a lot of the credit for
that happening - they've done an exceedingly good job of picking board
members who have best captured all those qualities, out of a superb list
of candidates.

I don't think there's really any danger grex will become like m-net, at
least, not as long as we keep these ideals in mind.  Grex is a living
entity, though, so it *is* important that we always keep them in mind,
and not take them for granted.  So it is useful to stop, and think about
these things every so often.  As long as we all keep these things in
mind, though, I doubt the process will ever become onerous, and if there
is a rock out there for grex to founder on, it is likely to be something
so completely unexpected that none of us has ever thought of it.

response 103 of 143:

Oct 8 13:35 UTC 1996

   Ahem.

   One of the things Grex could do better, is keep on track of an
items subject matter.

   ;-)

response 105 of 143:

Oct 8 14:17 UTC 1996

I'm a little concerned that in directing all of this attention
toward one difficult user we will (are) teaching other problem
users that if you want mega-attention and the ability to dominate
discussion all you need do is act-out.

I really, totally, 100% believe the problem is best addressed
by ignoring it and encouraging others to do the same.

response 107 of 143:

Oct 8 16:54 UTC 1996

Okay, maybe I do tend to not drop things as fast as I should, and
I'll accept the criticism.  But one of the reasons I have that
tendency is that *I* don't think sometimes that I've made my
arguments clearlyenough.  If I see responses to my suggestions
that are one-liners with no explanation than it is very easy to 
think that the idea is being rejected either because I didnt state
my thoughts clearly enough or *worse* that the rejection is because it was
me who made the suggestion (some readers clearly reject ideas because
theya re mine and not because of its merits-- Mary for instance has made
it very clear that she's disinclined to see the merit in anything I say)

But I dont dominate most items in this conf and I dont get carried away
too often (for instance the most obstinate debate I've seen in a coop item
this year was the one about the last coop login screen, it was an item
that got totally out of hand and it was mostly Tsand nephi on one side and
STeve and Marcus and one or two others on the other side...and sure I had
my two cents worth but that was a contentios issue that I was not a
principal instigator in)  But when I do get involved in a debate, it is
just my nature to defend my positions and clarify them when it appears as
if they are being dismissed not on their own merits.

I got on rob's case because somebody suggested a joint membership with
HVCN where both sides would benefit.  I didnt know HVCN needed the money.
M-net does.  A "joint membership" being a simple discount offered to those
who might want to join both grex and mnet at the same time.  The money is
split evenly and both groups get new members.  There is no combining in
any other way and it couldnt possibly harm either group and could clearly
help, at least potentially, if a dual membership is more enticing than a
single membership in a struggling board like m-net/.   But rob is opposed.
Dismissed out of hand.  And the only real reason I could think of for why
he'd be aginst it (other than it being my idea) is philosophical...he is
not a member of mnet so helping them is counter to his libertarian views.
It doesnt do anything for him.   

So if this item is on what grex can do better, my response is that grex's
opinion leaders can have a clearer idea of its mission and its philosophy,
and that this can only be accomplished through better communication and
understanding of its users.  I dont think its a hardship to say that a
board member should read Agora or go to Party once in a while, those are
essential parts of GRex.  Grex is more than Coop.

That was what I was saying.  Nothing wasa personal attack, nothing was
flaming...EVERYTHING was reasonable and constructive. And for that,Valerie
flames me and everyone else piles on.  I dont think that is a nice way to
be treated.  I dont have any wish to be a villain, my motives are purely
to give Grex my thoughts because right now thats all I have to give.  I
dont live in A2, I cant help you guys move.  I dont plan to become a
member for stated reasons, but when its in my budget , I will certainly
contribute to the buying of new equipment or something.

These respones are my way ofbeing a part of this, but I keep forgetting
that being an active participant in the confing is not being part of grex
is it?  Just another typical clique.

response 109 of 143:

Oct 8 20:20 UTC 1996

But in a joint membership, grex would be getting almost as
much money from a membership as it does now.  Maybe a dollar
less as a form of a discount, which mnet would also match.  Grex
would lose very little moneu from sucha plan and could gain
new members.  And if the bylaws arent easy enough to revise,
that itself it a problem grexcould look at.  Grex is doubtless a
quite different place now than it was started.  Why must the
bylaws be exactly the same.  I dont think they were
written to be eternally unchanged.

Just amend the bylaws so that grex is allowed to discount its
membership fees on occasion based on the board's discretion.    Simple,
straightforward and it would give the freedom toconsider these things.
.,

response 111 of 143:

Oct 8 20:33 UTC 1996

   The Grex bylaws shouldn't be cast in stone, but neither should
they be writ in water.
   I'm really not at all sure, personally, that anything in the
way of discount memberships is a good idea.  Back when we adopted
the $60/yr $6/mo rule, it was seen as cheap at the time.  Given
that inflation exists, that $6/mo is even cheaper now.  My son
Damon came to the conclusion about three years ago, that he
could finance a Grex membership by getting two pop cans a day.
I really don't think that lowering the price is going to attract
more people: those who can afford it, do, and sometimes maybe
save their pennies to do so.  But the majority of people who could
be members, but aren't, are not likely to become such just becuase
of a small break in the membership.  Its exactly like joining an
NPR stations fund raiser.  Few do, but not becuase of the dollar 
amount: its simply becuase few bother to.

response 113 of 143:

Oct 8 20:46 UTC 1996

You can remain separate and stilldobusiness with each other.  But this
is really aimed at helping mnet (which is in such bad shape
that who's going to buy a membership over there unless it is in a
packagedeal?)  But I keep forgetting that libertarians run the
show here and it is against libertarian ethic to help that which
you are not a part of.  Its always, "well,what does it do
for me?"  Libertarianism is Self-Centeredism.

response 115 of 143:

Oct 8 21:45 UTC 1996

(BTW, I expect at least a few other baffers besides mdw will be
annoyed by being described as libertarians, but I expect they'll
let us all know that in short order.  You shouldn't attribute my
personal beliefs to a dozen other individuals as well.  Not everyone
on baff is a Pagan, for instance.  Or likes Babylon 5.  Or hates
eggplant.)

response 117 of 143:

Oct 8 23:40 UTC 1996

I started writing a response to kerouac.  I'll bite my tongue instead.
No, I will observe that M-net's problem is not that its would-be 
financial supporters are looking for a better deal; M-net's 
underlying problem is that the bonds of trust, faith and community 
between the system leaders and the users are in tatters.
Discount memberships are not going to help. Arbornet has been 
trying that. 
 
(And, to turn this back to Grex, such bonds are one of the things 
which work best here.) 
 
On the theory of $6/month:  I'm going to repeat myself.
Grex needs a second identifiable group to encourage additional 
donations.  Say, for $10/month (not including membership fee)
one could be a Grex Godparent.  (*please*, come up with a better name.)
The Godparent group would get no benefits except a listing somewhere,
and a little ego massage.  Since Godparents would not be voting 
members and would not have any different Internet access, 
there would be no ID questions.

response 119 of 143:

Oct 9 09:16 UTC 1996

<<we already have GrexGods ... don't they *need* "parents?">>
  
and, kerouac, you and nephi and i certainly are notthe only ones
who, either/both, here and elsewhere 'draw fire' one way or the other.
  
chelsea had the best suggestion a long way back (not novel, just
reiterated from <probably> centuries ago <chelsea is *not* 'centuries
ago,' just the idea>). 
  
functionally, it amounts to  "respond if you must; if not, don't."
  
ascii, in the beginning, did seem to 'get to me.' then, i realized
better. my goat is my own, you can't get it. solved taht one for me.

response 121 of 143:

Oct 10 06:12 UTC 1996

TS is making a humorous comment in favor of the "godparent" title, 
I think, but I don't get the "Grex Gods" reference.
 
It's not just for Selena, although I have tried to describe 
something she would find attractive; it's also to encourage
additoinal donations from the existing contributor base.
I'm looking for the Grex equivalent of those pages in the back 
of the opera program, which start with the members of the Ford family who 
gave $10,000, and which eventually tier down to the ordinary 
opera lover who gave $50.

response 123 of 143:

Oct 10 18:43 UTC 1996

I'd gotten the impression that selena/ladyevil didn't want anyone
to have her address or phone number.  I'd rather not accept home
pages as valid id, since it's a lot easier to submit a fake address
on a home page than it would be on a driver's license or check.

(This ties in with why staff can't accept info from another .plan
as confirmation of a user's identity when they want a password
changed.  Imagine if I put "popcorn@cyberspace.org" as an alternate
address in my own .plan, then sent mail to staff saying "Help! I'm
popcorn, and I forgot my password!  Please change it and mail it to
robh@cyberspace.org."  We could only accept an alternate e-mail
address from popcorn's .plan.)