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Grex > Coop7 > #116: Serious questions about the bylaws! | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 281 responses total. |
davel
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response 100 of 281:
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Nov 8 02:12 UTC 1995 |
Bleah.
(I know, Mary, it's just as long. But the sum of the ASCII values of the
letters is smaller. Does that count as more succinct?)
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davel
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response 101 of 281:
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Nov 8 02:24 UTC 1995 |
To whatever extent the rationale for RRO is to guarantee minority views
a hearing, *we don't need it now*. Not only are board meetings open
to the public - & the public often speaks as much as the board - but
any user can in fact enter into discussions of the issues here in coop
& have their arguments available to those who read them long after any
meeting controlled by RRO is going to be forgotten.
As far as the suggestion that we need to follow RRO in order to be
a candidate for 501(c)3 status, um, that sounds to me like scraping the
bottom of the barrel looking for arguments, not a serious reason for
adopting something like RRO. I think we ought to apply for 501(c)3; I
think we're almost certainly eligible; admittedly the IRS is arbitrary
in these things, but if they choke on *that* then tough, IMO.
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rcurl
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response 102 of 281:
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Nov 8 06:44 UTC 1995 |
davel, your first paragraph is not relevant, as RRO is silent on all
discussion external to formal meetings. The second paragraph is mooter:
I think rickyb's postulate in #98 is a little stretched, but not
irrelevant. The fact is, now is the best time to adopt RRO, when there
are no cliques, contentions, power-blocs, etc on the board. No one would
notice. However, it would then be available if and when needed.
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davel
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response 103 of 281:
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Nov 8 13:19 UTC 1995 |
Coop conference is in effect one long formal meeting. Motions may be
preposed & voted on, & are binding. Other types of official business
may be conducted.
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rcurl
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response 104 of 281:
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Nov 8 16:25 UTC 1995 |
Yes motions *may be* proposed, and voted upon. At that point an on-line
version of RRO (not yet formulated) would be appropriate. One aspect of
the referendum mechanism here that is not perfect is that amendments are
not allowed, except at the will of the proposer. The essence of handling
motions via RRO, however, is that once moved and seconded, the motion is
the "property" of the assembly.
The only official CCI business conducted in coop are member-proposed
motions, and elections. Everything else is conducted as though in
"committee of the whole". (That's why sometimes there is so little result
from so much discussion.)
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ajax
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response 105 of 281:
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Nov 8 21:21 UTC 1995 |
"I'll vote for the new modem bill, but only if it's amended with
provisions for a 60 mile bike path and sound barrier in my district."
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sidhe
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response 106 of 281:
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Nov 9 04:44 UTC 1995 |
..and perhaps someday someone will be kind enought to decypher the
acronym RRO for me. I'm afraid i can't find the reference anywhere above.
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rcurl
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response 107 of 281:
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Nov 9 06:13 UTC 1995 |
Robert's Rules of Order.
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nestene
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response 108 of 281:
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Nov 9 06:14 UTC 1995 |
RRO=Robert's Rules of Order. They were apparantly formulated by a fellow named
General Robert around the middle of the Nineteenth Century.
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ajax
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response 109 of 281:
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Nov 9 06:44 UTC 1995 |
Bah, that's just urband legend. In actuality, a group came up with a bunch
of dumb-sounding rules. They needed a name to make them sound much smarter.
Throughout history, Roberts have always been very smart, so it was the
logical choice. "Billy-Joe's Rules of Order" would have doomed them. Just
don't ask me how Microsoft came to choose the name Bob for its idiot software.
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robh
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response 110 of 281:
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Nov 9 10:21 UTC 1995 |
They named it "Bob" because they figured it would float around
on the surface of your monitor, and refuse to go under. >8)
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adbarr
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response 111 of 281:
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Nov 10 11:42 UTC 1995 |
<adbarr writes note to self reminding him to wop ajax with the Grexbat
next time he catches him> <adds robh>
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srw
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response 112 of 281:
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Nov 10 22:27 UTC 1995 |
Don't let Rane catch you abusing the bat.
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adbarr
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response 113 of 281:
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Nov 10 22:37 UTC 1995 |
I ain't worried a'tall about Rane, but ya gotta watch that "remmers"
character. <adbarr checks the trail for punji sticks> He be mean!
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rcurl
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response 114 of 281:
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Nov 11 07:03 UTC 1995 |
The Greater Grexbat is endangered internationally. The recovery plan
calls for no wopping.
adbarr, while you are looking over one shoulder for remmers, how
will you look over the other shoulder for rcurl?
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adbarr
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response 115 of 281:
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Nov 11 11:52 UTC 1995 |
I ain't talkin' 'bout no mammals! rcurl, ever heard of mirrors? And, besides,
I have a modified home-alarm motion detector to wear when I am "in country".
Would never harm a living bat. My bat is not living. I'm watchin' you guys!
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srw
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response 116 of 281:
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Nov 11 16:30 UTC 1995 |
Not living? Oh...... never mind.
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popcorn
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response 117 of 281:
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Nov 11 19:47 UTC 1995 |
Arnold is whopping people with a dead bat?
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rcurl
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response 118 of 281:
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Nov 11 21:21 UTC 1995 |
In #111 adbarr theatened to wop ajax with his dead bat. However, I
thinking wopping is more like polishing, as in "polish the floor with
him". Bats should not be used for this either, as it deranges their
fur, and exposes them to viruses.
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ajax
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response 119 of 281:
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Nov 12 00:09 UTC 1995 |
What about the viruses *I'd* be exposed to, being polished with a dead bat!
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adbarr
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response 120 of 281:
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Nov 12 14:14 UTC 1995 |
Ok. Y'all had yer fun. Now pay 'tention! You are _all_ on the list, and your
comeuppance is nigh:
___ __________________________________________________
|_|__________/ \
| / / / GREXBAT - "When you wop them with this, |
| / / / they is wopped for good!" |
|/__/__/_____ Mfg. 1995 |
|_| \__________________________________________________/
Constructed of virgin foam-rubber. Guaranteed for life. Comes with simple
instructions. Not intended for commercial use. Tests have shown the
appropriate use of the GREXBAT can shorten meetings, stop rambling speakers,
enhance appreciation of your jokes, and appropriately "reward" the occasional
smart-ass or "punster". Intended for adults only. For extreme cases, use in
conjuction with our canned "Dr. Putzger's Bullshit Repellent" 1-800-222-2222
to order. Gold or platinum accepted.
<my apologies to kerouac. I was incited to this, you must admit.>
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rcurl
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response 121 of 281:
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Nov 12 20:26 UTC 1995 |
That's an early, obsolete design. The GREXBAT 95 has three holes,
for multitasking, and to leave wopwhelts.
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mdw
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response 122 of 281:
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Nov 23 13:55 UTC 1995 |
At one point during the founders meetings, some discussion of RRO
actually did come up. A certain amount of discussion on RRO ensued,
mostly, I suspect rickb & rcurl will be disappointed to learn, along the
"yucko" line. One of the most fascinating things about RRO that I know
is that, to my knowledge, no major governmental body in fact uses it
(I'd be delighted to hear of any examples). The parlimentary procedures
followed by the US house & senate, and by british parliement are, for
instance, radically different.
I seem to recall now, that just after that, our discussion wandered onto
the idea of constructing a full fledged judiciary system to deal with
"problem users". This lasted for about 5 minutes, at which point one of
the founders recalled that he had heard of a system, somewhere, which
had decided to do just this. They constructed a very complete and
attractive online judiciary system, a model of electronic excellence.
All who saw it agreed that it was very fair and complete. It was
promptly put into use, and proved a great success. People
enthusiastically joined in the process, as interested parties on one
side or the other, and had no trouble at all in finding the time to
devote their complete and undivided attention on seeing that justice was
served. Indeed, the whole judiciary system was *so* popular and
successful, what with its elaborate series of appeals & hearings, that
it quickly took over the entire system, and the whole system was, in
fact, *nothing but* the judicial system.
That the founders chose not to make either decision is, of course, not
cast in concrete, or even foam rubber. The board could choose to adopt
a more formal set of rules, & the membership could design a more
elaborate judicial system. I've seen nothing to convince me either
would be a good move for Grex, but I am, after all, only one of many.
Still, my feeling is that it's pretty unlikely 501c3 has *any*
particular parliementary procedure wired into it (so far as I know, the
501c3 forms don't make *any* mention whatsoever concerning the actual
content or structure of such meetings), but that if they did, that might
well be reason enough right there to avoid 501c3 at all costs. We got a
system today that works quite well, and there is no evidence that RRO
will work any better, and plenty to suggest that it could work a lot
worse. Computer programmers succeed or fail, more than any other
discipline by their success in logic, and one of the first rules one
learns is: never fix what ain't broke.
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rcurl
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response 123 of 281:
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Nov 23 21:40 UTC 1995 |
If you read RRO, you will find frequent mention of its use by the US House
and Senate, in particular with regard to the few points by which they
differ. I'm not surprised by the "yucko" response from any group starting
up but ignorant of the proper use of RRO. The fact is that just about
every corporation in America has the clause in their bylaws that their
parliamentary authority is RRO. Grex works OK partly by virtue of the
fact that it is run under some presumed rules much like RRO, though
adapted (and ignored) in an ad-hoc fashion. I have seen several instances
where people have been "squashed" by the majority, for the failure of the
chair to exercise proper parliamentary guidance. I think it would be a
good thing for Grex to adopt a fairer system, which can be known to all.
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chelsea
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response 124 of 281:
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Nov 24 00:25 UTC 1995 |
Rane, do you think it's possible for an intelligent person
to have a decent understanding of RRO and maybe even some
experience with using them and still not think they would
be a good fit for Grex?
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