response 100 of 190:

Oct 19 21:13 UTC 1995

        Of course we do. We want to know just what we can get away with.

response 102 of 190:

Oct 20 13:16 UTC 1995

Nominees so far:

        Scott Helmke (scott)
        Christopher Cloyd (sidhe)
        Rob Henderson (robh)
        Anne Perry (anne)
        Misti Anslin (mta)
        Rane Curl (rcurl)
        Audrey Bricker (headdoc)

Nominations are open through November 15.

response 104 of 190:

Oct 20 16:21 UTC 1995

Looks like a terrific slate to me.  It will be hard to vote.

One thing Grexxers should think about is ways to expand the kinds of ways
that people can volunteer for Grex.  Currently we have staff and board.
There are much more than enough people willing to serve on both.  Staff
requires some computer talent and is thus only available to a few.  The
board you have to get elected to.  This seems to leave us with lots of
people who'd be willing to do something, but have nothing to do.

The idea should not be to find make-work for them.  People are attracted
to challenging projects where something significant is at stake and they
are trusted to do it right.  Wolfmage's suggested fund raiser is a good
example of a such a project.

Only a few of those candidates can be elected.  It'd be a shame not to
take advantage of the willingness of others to get involved.

response 106 of 190:

Oct 20 18:40 UTC 1995

Thank you, popcorn and ajax, for thew nomination and second.  I accept the
nomination, and if elected, the challenge.

response 108 of 190:

Oct 21 04:29 UTC 1995

I nominate Mark Conger, login aruba, to run for the board.

response 110 of 190:

Oct 21 10:37 UTC 1995

Actually Kerouac, in a way, I agree with you. I have been trying to convince
various grexers for quite some time now that all the time and effort I put
into the system to keep it running and maintain it "supports" the system
far more than a lousy $60 bucks would. So far, no one agrees with me. If
I can't get a membership, it's very unlikely you'll get one jsut for
participating in the conferences. BTW, I can't vote either.

response 112 of 190:

Oct 21 18:55 UTC 1995

Let me take a wack at that nose while it is still extended.. I don't know
any volunteer non-profits that donate "memberships" to volunteers *no
matter how much time they donate*. I also don't know any other volunteer
non-profits where the volunteers expect that - they all pay their dues.
Time *is* a donation - called an "in kind" donation, but the very essence
of it is that it has no monetary value. The problems that arise if
memberships are given for volunteer service are two-fold: 1) it can be
viewed as a payment, which makes the volunteer either a contractor or a
consultant, but in either case, declarable on income tax (and my require
carrying workmen's compensation, etc), and 2) how do you value one
person's donation of time against another"s? How many hours are worth "one
membership", and are they *quality* hours? Is rebooting Grex worth more or
less than attending a board meeting? Let's never go this route. 

response 114 of 190:

Oct 21 22:55 UTC 1995

   Look Im not saying that the purchase of a membership shouldnt buy
the right to vote.  What Im saying is that it shouldnt be the only
way one can be allowed to vote.  Why cant the rule say that any
user of grex who has paid three months dues or has simply been a
contributing user of grex for lets say twice that period, six months,
can vote.  That would give active uses like selena, or gregc, or myself
who may have personal reasons, based on our beliefs or economic situations
or whatever, for not buying a membership at a specific time the chance
to fully participate.  All Im saying is that there should be an
alternative.

But what Im getting instead is what many newer users have sensed, which
is that there are many members of grex who resent the growth and changes
which have happened to this system since it went on the 'net.  And 
consequentially, they resent new users.  Why do you think popcorn
got flamed when she wanted to suspend reaping during august? Because
certain folks look with disdain and disgust at everyone outside
Ann Arbor who runs newuser and clogs up grex's arteries!

response 116 of 190:

Oct 21 23:28 UTC 1995

Marcus, you are on the right track. I wonder if, just perhaps, some
kind of promotion of Grex to gain contributions aside from membership
dues and JCC sales, and ajax and many others who have contributed
from inside, might be at least worth the time to consider. Thank
you for the very rational response. <adbarr remembers when people
objected to maps of the world showing the Soviet Union in red, because
red was an "appealing" color> I am not advocating anyone's position
here, but, trying to fight boredom, am suggesting we think about
and honestly debate these issues. It does make me wonder why . . . . I 
respect all sides here and am taking furious mental notes for HVCN.

response 118 of 190:

Oct 22 00:37 UTC 1995

To me, that's not what Grex is about, and that's not at all what
memberships should be about either.  Things like outbound access, ftp,
telnet, & etc., are certainly all worth money, and there are plenty of
worthy organizations engaged in that very business.  Certainly, grex
could become an ISP, but grex is certainly not an effective competitor
in this business as presently constituted, & it would take a lot of
changes (and the probable neglect of the things it does well today) in
order to become a serious competitor in this market.  As matters stand,
internet access is merely a perk of membership.  Anyone who only wanted
internet access would be better served by any commercial ISP; by
eliminating "free" access and other wasteful activities, such systems
can provide far better value than ever Grex could.

The same thing applies to voting; that's merely a means, and not an end.
I suppose we could become a far more political sort of organization, and
make voting in and of itself one of the principle attractions, but if
so, I dunno about you, but I'm outta here.  Fortunately, or at least
hopefully, I don't think that's a serious possibility at this point.

response 120 of 190:

Oct 22 05:01 UTC 1995

Marcus in #115 appears to be talking about cooperatives. Cooperatives
are not charitable, non-profit, 501(c)2 tax exempt organizations. They
are non-profit, but founded solely to provide their members with
benefits, by group purchase in particular. When people join a
cooperative they are usually buying "shares", are shareholders, and
receive related benefits. There is no reason why these cannot include
"gifts" to the members, even such as "recognition dinners", although I
can't recall this being done for volunteers, but rather for paid staff
(who usually do work for low wages). 

Re #113: I don't understand, Arnold. I know that time and skill are
valuable, but if they donors of such time and kills are not being paid.
why is it not a "donation", in the pro-bono sense? Are you speaking of
the fact that even though the donation of time and skills (by, say,
professionals) is a "value", there is no tax on the "transaction"?
I take that as a given. However (say) I don't believe that a lawyer
donating pro-bono work can claim that donation as a tax exemption.

I have donated much time and skill to many non-profit charitable
organizations. None has ever offer a "dinner", or any other asset
in recognition, nor would I accept such if it were answered. [However
I'd be interested in specific instances of such practices - at least
all the organizations I've been involved in have been "poor", and
think like Marcus does: to accept a benefit from the organization for
my services is a contradiction of the reason I donated those services.

The CC INc Articles specify that "No part of the net earnings of the
Corporation shall inure to the benefit of, or be distributed to its
members, trustees, officers or other private persons..." This pretty
much excludes conferring memberships as quid-pro-quo for donated
services.

HCVN and Grex differ in that HCVN is a director-based non-profit, and
Grex is a member based non-profit. HCVN has greater freedom to "pay
reasonable compensation for services rendered" to volunteers, as they
are not members, for whom it would be a conflict of interest.

There are, of course, some shifty sands on the pinhead...I was given
an Honorary Membership in one non-profit. Such memberships include
a Life Membership, and therefore do possess some value (except in 
my case I had earlier purchased a life membership, so I received
no monetary benefit). However the provision for Honorary Memberships
are very defined and constrained and require board action, etc,
and are not taxable (well, I never *thought* they could be... hmmmm).

response 122 of 190:

Oct 22 13:07 UTC 1995

I'm quite familiar with the difference between co-op's & non-profits.
But that's all labels, & somewhat arbitrary; and mean different things
in different places.  The articles of incorporation, by-laws, & laws
that they hook into are meant to make some changes and activities
"difficult"; but if we really want to do those things, the bylaws are
constituted to provide a mechanism to make any such possible.

The important thing is to decide if something is worth doing.  For
instance, there is nothing to stop us from becoming a full service ISP,
if we so please.  Becoming a for-profit commercial business is harder,
but not impossible; if the majority of us really wanted to do that, it
could happen.  We could also set membership rates to anything we
pleased, or even eliminate them.  That would be unusual, as Rane's
experience shows, but I know of nothing in the law that outlaws them.
Even though we can do something, though, that doesn't mean it's worth
doing.  I think very few people here would care to sacrifice
conferencing to become a real ISP; I think most of us value our public
service too much to go commercial; and if the phone bills don't get
paid, it's curtains for Grex.  It's a good idea to dream, to be sure,
but we need to also consider the whole picture, when making changes, to
be sure we're not also shooting ourselves in the foot.  As they say,
"there's no such thing as a free lunch".

response 124 of 190:

Oct 22 17:49 UTC 1995

HVCN is not a directorship, but is a membership-based non profit, just
like Grex. The board of directors is technically only an interim board,
to be replaced by a vote of the members, as spelled out in the bylaws,
which are on-line at http://www.hvcn.org/bylaws.html