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Grex > Coop6 > #19: Grex's listing in Michigan Computer User |  |
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| 25 new of 206 responses total. |
gerund
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response 100 of 206:
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Feb 9 04:07 UTC 1995 |
Uh, I don't know if this was pointed out, but in, uh, response 81 i believe
it was someone said that this was cyberspace.com.
It's not... it's cyberspace.org.
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carson
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response 101 of 206:
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Feb 9 05:25 UTC 1995 |
you're right, Gerald. Imagine the confusion!
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mdw
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response 102 of 206:
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Feb 9 06:41 UTC 1995 |
The phrase Rob used was "Geographical distribution is similar to other
figures I've heard.". It wasn't clear to me if he was talking about
users or members; since he's talking about a way to get more users, but
presenting statistics based on members.
I suppose, however, the first question it to figure out what, exactly,
we're trying to accomplish here:
(1) attract more michigan users?
(2) get more money?
(3) get more members?
(4) attract more interesting users?
Rob says, up front, he's talking in a "business" sense - and makes it
clear he's thinking in terms of a commercial business, or sense (2) in
my list of goals. The logic he uses would indeed make sense for most
commercial business. In most businesses, customers are much more
independent of one another, and the usual strategies are to maximize
revenue, minimize expenses, and grow as quickly as is consistent with
one's income. In such a business, one generally tries to provide the
minimum amount of service feasible, and generally tries to minimize risk
as much as possible too. Customers that offend each other represent a
risk, and are therefore to be avoided: MCU's policy is entirely
consistent with this position. "Interesting" users are also a risk.
Interesting users might either offend some other users, driving them
away - or worse yet, interesting users might *attract* and *distract*
from using the service in the most profitable fashion - for Grex, since
we currently have a flat rate membership charge, but limited dial-in
lines; a user who encouraged other users to use the dial-in lines and
them kept them in party for long hours would be a risk. On the other
hand, if Grex had a connect charge, like CompuServe, then such users
might instead represent an asset. Non-paying users would also represent
a liability against the system, so from a commercial stand-point, what
Grex offers "for free" is completely without sense.
But I submit that, as a not for profit; the size of our bank account is
*not* the goal here; but the goal is instead to provide the "best"
system for as many *users* as we can reasonably support. I think that
menas we *are* interested in "interesting" people. I think that also
means we want to *avoid* the kind of sterile system the MCU rules would
suggest. All other things being equal, the more users we can support,
the more good we are doing in the world. I think more users also makes
for a more interesting system; with more different kinds of niches and
opportunities. I don't think we should be interested in reducing the
kind of service we can offer to non-paying users; unless we absolutely
have to for legal or economic necessity. I also believe a large bank
account is a liability, not an asset: a large bank account means we've
failed to invest it in additional service for users, and exposes us to
all sorts of nasty liabilities from people who want that money, ranging
from the government, to selfish members and organizations.
At the moment, I think there's another very simple reason to put plans
for attracting more michigan usrs on hold: we really don't know how the
michigan dial-in scene is going to change. Users who are in michigan,
but not local to Grex, might find it very unattractive to use or support
a system they can't afford to call; as things stand, it seems there's an
excellent change this situation could be true in 6 months.
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ajax
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response 103 of 206:
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Feb 9 10:21 UTC 1995 |
Yes, was financial analysis. Ad produces more members *&* users, thus
covers cost of ad, spreads Grex gospel, and leaves more $ to improve Grex.
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sidhe
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response 104 of 206:
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Feb 9 16:57 UTC 1995 |
GOSPEL?? ugh.
You know, this is all quite silly, and acedemic.
Excuse me, but why do we need to attract more users when we already have
increasingly-common instances of total fill-up on here? You'll pardon my
wonderment <I hope>, but I daresay that before we can even sanely
consider attracting more people, we first must expand how many grex
can handle at once!
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andyv
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response 105 of 206:
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Feb 9 17:45 UTC 1995 |
I must have missed something here. Is MCU a subscription magazine or
can it be picked up free?
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steve
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response 106 of 206:
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Feb 9 17:59 UTC 1995 |
It was free, last time I checked which was a month or so ago.
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andyv
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response 107 of 206:
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Feb 9 18:12 UTC 1995 |
If it is still free, then it is meant to be a public service to the
general population. The $35 is meant to keep the wheels turning like
membership dues here. If it is free to the public, I think it would
be a good idea to list in there so we can be made available to all
the folks who are just getting started as a public service in line with
our goals.
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ajax
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response 108 of 206:
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Feb 9 18:23 UTC 1995 |
MCU is free, but a for-profit biz, like free real estate mags: ad-supported.
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andyv
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response 109 of 206:
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Feb 9 18:40 UTC 1995 |
Well, the $35 goes to publication, pay, and profits to the shareholders.
Does $35 sound expensive for such a listing?
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steve
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response 110 of 206:
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Feb 9 19:32 UTC 1995 |
I'm not sure that $35 isn't better spent elsewhere. Like $35 for flyers,
which could be posted at shopping malls, etc in all the cities that are a
local phone call to Ann Arbor. I think that might be really neat, seeing a
campaign of sorts, aimed at people who walk through the front entrances of
places like Meijer.
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mdw
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response 111 of 206:
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Feb 9 23:53 UTC 1995 |
I think the issue here is not whether MCU would bring in members, but
whether MCU would be the best way to reach the kind of users we'd like
to attract, and whether we'd like to see Grex as even symbolically
supporting the stated policies of MCU.
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kentn
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response 112 of 206:
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Feb 10 04:29 UTC 1995 |
Are we trying to attract a particular "kind" of user or are we after
anyone who wants to learn about computers and wants to communicate?
I'm unclear on what we mean by "kind" here. It sounds discriminatory
and un-Grex-like.
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mdw
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response 113 of 206:
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Feb 10 05:09 UTC 1995 |
Anything we did, or didn't do, to attract a particular "kind" of user
would attract *some* kind of user. So, in that sense, I don't think we
have the option to decide not to do it. We do have the option to open
our eyes in deciding, or to decide blindly and in a default manner.
Once those users find grex, a considerable fraction, perhaps a majority
no matter what we did, would find grex uninteresting and wander off.
Some percentage will stick around. A much smaller percentage will
participate. An even smaller percentage yet will become members. And a
relatively small percentage will stay around for the long term.
The two of these factors together, the number and kind of users we
attract, and the number and kind of users who elect to stick around,
will determine what Grex will be like in a few years.
By deciding where & how we advertise: how we treat new users on Grex,
and also in general by doing what interests us, and interesting or
boring other people, we can modify all of these percentages. There is a
lot of selecting that happens here, and like it or not, we will make a
profound difference in that selection process no matter what we do or
why.
All I'm saying here is: instead of just closing our eyes: pretending the
policies of MCU aren't our problem, and that all growth is good and more
money is better; we ought to decide if that's really the direction we
want to grow in.
Another way to look at it is: if we pour fertilizer around the roots, we
are a gardener. More fertilizer is not always better, and we ought to
decide what kind of garden we want and look at the whole picture, rather
than just pouring fertilizer on and wondering why some of the plants
look a bit peaked.
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remmers
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response 114 of 206:
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Feb 10 10:45 UTC 1995 |
(Why does that last paragraph remind me of "Being There"?)
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ajax
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response 115 of 206:
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Feb 10 10:59 UTC 1995 |
Re 113, paragraph 5, that's what this item's for! Btw, I wrote to a BBS
sysop who advertises in the Observer; he said it's a good draw, but a
1/16-page ad is $1800/yr...no debate needed, unless we pawn our drives
and modems! :)
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sidhe
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response 116 of 206:
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Feb 10 15:12 UTC 1995 |
I still sat system expansion should have a more immediate priority
than attracting more people..
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andyv
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response 117 of 206:
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Feb 10 17:02 UTC 1995 |
I don't understand why the policy of the publisher of MCU would have anything
to do with the kind of people reading it, especially since it is free. What
is their circulation and where is it distributed? If I picked up a copy
and found something in it I liked, that wouldn't mean I advocate their
policy. So what if I did?
If someone donated $35 to put the listing in, would that make a difference?
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nephi
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response 118 of 206:
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Feb 10 20:00 UTC 1995 |
Do right wing conservatives read Time? Do bleeding-heart liberals read
The National Review? Does this answer your question?
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sidhe
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response 119 of 206:
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Feb 10 20:28 UTC 1995 |
I don't know. I love computers, but I don't read Wired <tried it, and
DON'T like it>
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mdw
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response 120 of 206:
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Feb 11 02:44 UTC 1995 |
Actually, andyv asks a very interesting question in #117 - one that we
probably can get answers to. Most magazines collect gruesome amounts of
statistical studeits on their readership; that way, their advertisers
can target their ads to best reach the intended cusotmers, by choosing
the magazines & ads. At the very least, we should be able to get
distribution and circulation, just as andyv asks. It's very probable
that we can also get response rates, age, sex, income level, education
level, and other demographics as well. If it turns out MCU appeals
especially to white middle-aged people who attended christian collegs
and live near grand rapids; we might want to consider carefully how they
are going to respond to racially mixed young liberal people in party.
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steve
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response 121 of 206:
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Feb 11 03:36 UTC 1995 |
What marcus says is right. We could find all that stuff out.
But something else occured to me today: will someone get their
copy of MCU, and put there the relevent text, if any, that talks
about the standards that BBS's have to have in order to be listed
in their publication? I'd like to see what the MCU-reading public
sees.
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danr
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response 122 of 206:
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Feb 11 13:33 UTC 1995 |
Here's exactly what it says:
"Since Computer User has a wide circulation, we will not allow
listing any BBS that exist primarily for X-rated communication or
interest that most people would consider deviant behavior. <begin
bold>Any BBS that has an "adult" category will not be listed. <end
bold>
(NOTE: The grammar errors are MCU's and not mine.) :-)
As several people have already noted, we already have plenty of users.
I don't think we need to spend $35 in MCU to attract more.
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steve
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response 123 of 206:
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Feb 11 17:25 UTC 1995 |
That is sufficiently vague that I don't want Grex to be listed
there, myself.
What consititutes "adult"? The sexuality conference? Alt.sex.anything
once news is back up?
I'll vote against any proposal that comes up for this. Thanks
Dan for entering that. El-Yuccko.
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lilmo
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response 124 of 206:
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Feb 11 20:30 UTC 1995 |
Grex presumably doesn't exist primarily for X-rated or deviant behavior, I
don't see the problem. The reference to "adult" categoies refers to BBS
systems that allow user accounts to have an "adult" flag for accessing certain
aspects of the system (usually X-rated discussions, .GIF's, etc). Since that
does not apply here, either, I again see no problem. I suggest that the
board approve a letter similar to that proposed in response 81 (?) and see
what MCU says. If they don't want it, the discussion is moot. If they
accept it, what have we to lose?
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