response 100 of 209:

Aug 3 02:32 UTC 2003

WARNING:  The following post may be hazardous to the beliefs of pro- 
choice fanatics and to those who think President Bush's judicial 
nominees are out of the mainstream of American thought.  Proceed at your 
own risk.  Thank you.




"Progress and Perils:  How Gender Issues Unite and Divide Women"
Conducted for Center for Gender Equity by Princeton Survey Research 
Associates, Oct. 2001

. . . Women's opinions on the issue of abortion itself are sharply 
divided and entrenched.  Only one-third (34%) or women say abortion 
should be generally available to those who want it.  Forty-five percent 
held the opposite view and want access to abortion limited.  Thirty-one 
percent want it limited only to cases of rape, incest, and to save the 
woman's life. . . . 

response 102 of 209:

Aug 3 15:47 UTC 2003

That study may be found at
http://www.advancewomen.org/womens_research/PartOne.pdf

It's long and says many things.  Here's a quote:

  Of 12 issues investigated in this study as possible priorities for
  a women s movement, only abortion generates sharp differences of
  opinion.  Half of women (49%) say keeping abortion legal should be
  a top priority of the movement, but 24 percent assign it a lower
  priority, and 25 percent reject it outright as an issue that should
  concern a women s movement.

  In a different context, 55 percent of women say "reproductive
  rights  is a public issue that is very important to them personally,
  ranking lowest out of eight public issues tested.

  Women s opinions on the issue of abortion itself are sharply divided,
  and entrenched.  Only one-third (34%) of women say abortion should
  be generally available to those who want it.  Forty-five percent
  hold the opposite view and want access to abortion limited: 31
  percent want it limited only to cases of rape, incest and to save
  the woman s life and 14 percent say abortion should never be
  permitted. Nineteen percent of women prefer a middle ground,
  saying abortion should be available, but under new limitations.
  These might include limitations, for example, on the timing of
  abortions, or on the steps that must be taken before a woman can
  have an abortion.  Overall, 81 percent of women say they never have
  second thoughts about their own position on the abortion issue.
  This percentage is up sharply from the 60 percent of women who said
  they never had doubts about their opinion on abortion when asked
  about this in a slightly different way in a 1988 Gallup Poll.

  Women are more likely to take the view that abortion should be 
  generally available as their level of education increases. Less
  than a quarter of women who did not complete high school (22%), 28
  percent of high school graduates, 35 percent of women who attended
  college but did not graduate, and 49 percent of college graduates
  support the general availability of abortion. The effect of education
  is particularly strong among older women. In fact, college
  graduates age 50 and older are the only demographic sub-group of
  women where a majority (54%) favors having abortion generally
  available to women who want it.

  Race and ethnicity also influence attitudes about the availability
  of abortion, with Hispanics most opposed and African-Americans most
  supportive. Overall, one in five Hispanic women (20%), 35 percent
  of white women and 40 percent of African-American women support
  the general availability of abortion. Since education affects these
  attitudes and African-American women attend college at lower rates
  than white women, the differences between whites and
  African-Americans are reduced when the two groups are compared in
  total. Half of African-American women who have attended college
  (50%), but only 42 percent of comparably-educated whites, support
  having abortion generally available.

response 104 of 209:

Aug 3 16:44 UTC 2003

That is quite interesting since if Roe v. Wade were overturned, it 
would mostly be young, poorly educated women who would have trouble 
obtaining abortions. 

response 106 of 209:

Aug 3 18:11 UTC 2003

The young poorly educated women can always go on welfare if they have unwanted
babies.

response 108 of 209:

Aug 3 20:13 UTC 2003

Re #100:  Regardless of what the mainstream is this week, the
Constitution prohibits the majority imposing its will on matters
religious without repealing the First Amendment.  (You may recall
that the Constitution is specifically designed to prevent transient
passions from changing the law of the land [aka mob rule].)

I also seem to recall that the "mainstream" view as propounded by
the radical right is built on half-truths and a number of outright
lies.  My sympathies for their agenda are diminished accordingly,
and I expect that the jurists who take their duty of impartiality
seriously feel likewise.  Right-wing ideologues are another matter.

response 110 of 209:

Aug 3 23:52 UTC 2003

Yup, I think that young people and less educated people generally know
less than old people and more educated people.  Such a snob I am.

The "golly, that's a shock" part is specifically about your strange
notion that these statistics are any big surprise to anyone.  The
specific numbers vary, and the interpretation is difficult, but everyone
knows there are lots of people on both sides of the issue.  If, like
you, I was interested in painted a oversimplified image that tended to
favor my side, I'd have quoted just the first of the paragraphs above.

response 114 of 209:

Aug 5 03:46 UTC 2003

There's a certain tendancy, when people argue passionately to support a
position, to throw in any argument that seems to support their cause, in the
vague hope that someone out there somewhere will be convinced by that one,
even if it's stupid.  So in any passionate argument, you tend to get lots of
stupid arguments for or against being floated.  Their existance should not
be taken as evidence that good arguments don't actually exist.

response 116 of 209:

Aug 5 22:05 UTC 2003

Re #114:  Except this isn't random people, Jan.  These are the major
organizations behind the cause, so far as I can tell.  The only thing
they accomplish with these things is to discredit themselves in the
eyes of anyone who cares about truth.

What really gets me is that most of the organizations opposed to
abortion have an explicit Christian affiliation, yet they do not
show any concern about these lies.  Which denominations teach that
it's okay to lie about people who differ?  Or are these people
hypocrites even by the teachings they claim to follow?  (I lean
toward the latter explanation.)

response 118 of 209:

Aug 6 00:30 UTC 2003

I have not faith in the idea of an atom.  How are you going to prove they
exist.

response 120 of 209:

Aug 6 15:05 UTC 2003

118:  The nature of matter is a theory, albeit an extremely well-supported
one.  I am thus far stisfied with it because it has proved consistent with
all situations.  If an alternate theory came forth which equally well 
explained all observed phenomena, then I would consider that as well.
I have no interest in going through all the reasons that I find the 
atomic theory acceptable, because I don't have any respect for your opinion
and trying to convince you of these things is not worth my time.

response 122 of 209:

Aug 6 16:30 UTC 2003

Re 118:  The computer monitor you're using to read this response is a good
demonstration of electrons.  Or perhaps elf magic!  

Seriously, there's a *lot* of science in the background all around you. 
Things like computers, plastics, food additives, medicines, etcs. were mostly
created by researchers & scientists.  This stuff is quite thoroughly used in
many fields of study.  If you mean to debunk it, you've got some serious work
ahead of you.

response 124 of 209:

Aug 6 22:04 UTC 2003

I don't mind if people have faith.  I mind if theyput a gun in my mouth and
force me to follow the rules of their faith.