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jaklumen
Reparative therapy-- Change and healing is possible. Mark Unseen   Dec 24 05:57 UTC 2001

I realize I'm going to ignite a firestorm of controversy, but to quell 
any possible gossip and to set the record straight, I will have to say 
the following:

Although there is a debate on whether or not sexuality is fixed, I 
believe reparative therapy is possible and that there are deep, 
somewhat unconscious emotional issues involved.

I don't suppose it's a big secret that I have struggled with my 
sexuality; interestingly enough, there was a conference here where I 
felt I could find support and understanding.  It was a relief to let 
out some of the hurt and confusion that I was feeling, and to confide 
where I felt safe.

At about the same time, probably a bit before joining the cf, there 
was a Grexer here that seemed to pierce my veil of secrecy, knowing 
the very issue, and immediately showing what seemed to be support.  
The emotional connection was very, very quick-- it was moments until I 
felt swept off my feet.  We soon were talking on the telephone.  I 
felt so loved, not quite knowing I was being subtly manipulated.

He also seemed interested in my religious beliefs.  It was quite a 
shock to find later that he became very jaded, encouraging me to leave 
my church, leave home, etc.  He was even so bold as to state such on 
the conference.

Curiously enough, the Affirmation chapter I had looked over at about 
the same time wasn't much help, either.  Although they professed to 
adhere to the principles of the religion we held in common, 
denigration and ill talk of its leaders was frequent, as were stories 
about cruising at the conferences, from what some had told me.

This was all before I became married.  Finding that my wife was in 
similar circumstances was somewhat comforting, and yet stressful all 
the same, for it became apparent that our issues were very much our 
own, and we needed to deal with them individually as well.

And yet I stumbled about hurting many in my confusion.  We joined a 
GALA chapter, and although there the support was also nice, it still 
made matters worse.  I will preserve my dignity by not speaking about 
the mistakes I made, but I will answer other accusations that have 
been made, one by yet another Grexer.

There was a period of time when I struggled with the conflicts that my 
actions, my professed principles, and my marriage relationship 
presented.  I didn't know how to resolve it all.

One of my aunts felt prompted to call, and soon I had been provided 
with a number of resources that seemed to give some answers.  I found 
out about the Evergreen program, which is a LDS version of other 
Christian programs such as Exodus.

The basis of the theory on reparative therapy is that there was a 
failure to bond with either the same sex parent or same sex peers, and 
that a sexualization of an emotional need occured some time 
subconsciously.  There is often a history of abuse and neglect, which 
can be by either parent.  Such abuse can be physical, emotional, or 
sexual, which need not be by the father-- cases do exist where mothers 
sexually molest their sons.  Frequently, persons feel feelings of 
alienation, shame, or guilt.  It is important to remember that not all 
people respond with such sexualization; behaviors of violence, 
asexuality, or sexual promiscuity can instead be expressed.  Nor 
should all parents or peers be to blame, for it is all hinged upon the 
perceptions of the individual.  A more complete, yet relatively brief 
synopsis can be found at www.peoplecanchange.com, which is 
nondenominational in nature.

It is fairly common to see a cycle of abuse, where the abused becomes 
the abuser.  If the reader will forgive the example, I do remember 
viewing a gay porn video in which all the scripted scenarios were 
likely based on some sort of experience of sexual molestation, such as 
a piano teacher, a relative, or a neighbor.  It was at once somewhat 
arousing, and yet very, very creepy to me, but it seemed to correspond 
to stories of rape and incest that gay friends had related to me.

I have never experienced such outright abuse, although emotional abuse 
at home was somewhat common, and whether I was willing to admit it or 
not, I had let others manipulate me.  I had a long "friendship" that 
was actually predatory in nature and where I allowed myself to be 
used, to be sucked in although I felt things were uncomfortable and 
wrong.  I was desperate for a good friend, and I was scared when he 
encouraged me to do things that I thought I wouldn't do.  Sexual 
contact was relatively minor, but I did feel somewhat violated.

And yet for years I denied that it was true, continually offering my 
friendship and support, even my news that change was possible.  
Looking back, I could see that he had preyed upon others I knew-- 
whether he fully realized it or not.  He was always trying to get me 
alone, to have his attention, or just have me sit around while he was 
absorbed in the Internet.  He was very disappointed when I got married 
and wouldn't accept my wife as a friend.  In fact, he told me himself 
that he felt hostile and vengeful towards his friend's wives, thinking 
they were abusive, and that he could do so much better than they.

Strangely enough at this time, I realized that much was true with the 
Grexer I mentioned, which shall continue to remain nameless by my 
will.  I do remember that someone else I knew was used up by him in a 
one-night stand, and that this particular person who was used has my 
sympathy despite some of the silly things that he has said and done.

My response, myself, was to find anonymous encounters where I called 
and controlled as much of the shots as possible, since I had felt so 
out of control in the aforementioned instances.  I suppose that 
addiction is more a part of my experience than others, but when you 
consider that I'm manic-depressive, and when I explain a continual 
lack of self-esteem, you may understand further why I acted as I did, 
albeit in error.

It has been my experience, unfortunately, that living the lifestyle 
can be much more lonely than not-- although there is and always be 
individuals who reject the stereotypes, there is well.. fatphobia, and 
a pressure to conform to the ideal of masculinity or femininity (and 
yes, the latter exists.)  Terms and phrases such 
as "ultimate," "clone," "fem" and "butch" seem to underscore this.  
There may be pressure to reject those ideals, alternately.  But at the 
very least, there are often political agendas and image expectations.  
Infidelity and neglect can be very common, because of the hunger to 
fulfill the emotional need of which I have spoken.

Following this road can also be difficult and lonely-- much more 
difficult because of the opposition against such a position, and 
somewhat more lonely *because* so few support it.  But at least for 
me, it has been more fulfilling.  Your mileage may differ than from 
what I have said here-- but at least the idea, and the *true* record 
of success (and despite what detractors may say, I have met success 
stories.. I can even name names) is worthy of research and 
consideration.
84 responses total.
phenix
response 1 of 84: Mark Unseen   Dec 24 16:50 UTC 2001

so what is reparitive teharopy?
lelande
response 2 of 84: Mark Unseen   Dec 25 16:25 UTC 2001

yeah.
dear author of #0,
your terse, jerky, and clinically enunciated style of writing here makes it
difficult to interpret what you're talking about; i'd say something more about
the frustration and anger that almost sneaks through at times, numbed by the
idealism of whatever mission you're on . . . but from what i did gather, i'd
say you have plenty of reason to be frustrated and angry. having said that,
i hope it's clear that i look forward to reading more drama from your
evidently mangled (manhandled?) inner world.
lel

p.s.
if it's controversy you want, and i know i do, try a more direct approach,
like "GAY FAGGITS FUCKIN SUCK", &c.
jaklumen
response 3 of 84: Mark Unseen   Dec 26 08:05 UTC 2001

resp:2 It's true I switched from a first person tense to a third 
person mid-stream, and that I'm sure it's confusing.

Of course there is frustration and anger there.  That was part of the 
experience, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer.  Some things that 
were confusing was not mentioning names-- I might have just changed 
them.  The persons know who they are, and I had hoped to speak to a 
few who otherwise knew to add some insight.  That may have been a 
mistake.

Yes, I am idealistic-- there is no doubt about that, but there were 
readers here, more elsewhere, who thought I had a certain opinion and 
frame of mind.  Time has passed and I was given more information to 
consider than I had then.  I had spoke out on another cf, and I felt 
it wise, at least to myself, to redress old perceptions.  There was at 
least one who felt I was making a terrible conflict of interest at one 
time, and I am sure that said person might wish to know I had chosen 
against "having my cake and eating it too."

It is apparent, that although my writing was confusing and unclear, 
lelande, that you never investigated the link.  For various reasons, I 
stumble here for fear of being misunderstood, but I think the content 
of the site is fairly concise and informative.  Which leads to my 
response on resp:1

"Reparative therapy" means just that, for starters-- therapy that 
makes reparations to hurt and pain.  Most of you would probably 
understand it better by another context, in what has been dubbed 
the "ex-gay" movement.

Unfortunately, even "ex-gay" is a bit of a misnomer.  Go back to 
www.peoplecanchange.com and read it again, or for the first time if 
you haven't already.  At the very least, I will say that the basis of 
reparative therapy asserts that some change is possible and even 
helpful.  Its main tenet is that of "deferred detachment," which is 
where a person has somehow been unable to bond with the same sex-- 
often a parent (i.e., son to father) or with peers.  Psychological 
responses may vary, as I said, from violence to asexuality, to 
sexualizing that emotional need.  The emotional need can be so great 
as to affect gender self-image-- say, a preoccupation to assume a more 
masculine or feminine role per se sex of the person, or to reject it 
entirely.  Again, I will say that an explanation elsewhere is probably 
better than what I can give here.  But I will add that the therapy 
never assumes that a complete change is guaranteed, only that 
management can be possible.

I've often been questioned for my LDS beliefs, especially when people 
know that I have attractions to both sexes.  While the LDS church does 
not condemn me for my feelings, it does not permit homosexual 
activity, as do much of the major denominations that comprise 
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  Again, I wished to address a 
certain person here without public embarassment (forgive me if I 
forgot an e-mail address, but I still thought it relevant to put it 
here.)  I have also discussed this with another; he knows who he is, 
and I thank him for his respect.

Again, lelande, although it may have been a more choice to dramatize 
with personal experience, and inadvertently dramatize solely from such 
instances, I find it very hurtful and inappropriate that you should 
make what seems to be a rather personal attack.  I do not believe that 
gay faggots fucking suck.. well, what it is isn't what I will 
discuss ;) , but honestly, you are rather mistaken if you perceive I 
emote a general hostility.  I still empathize having been there, and I 
feel for their hurts and their struggles.  I no longer believe that 
embracing some sort of bisexual lifestyle is the answer.  IMHO, I 
don't condemn those that do, or that embrace a gay or lesbian 
relationship-- for agency, or choice, that is-- is a right, and it is 
wrong to try and rob it from someone.  I can't wholeheartedly approve, 
but having been an AC/DC, switchhitter, fencesitter, or whatever else 
you want to call it, I can understand people's feelings and respect 
that they have made a choice that they feel they must.  I think it is 
also fair that I can offer an alternative view, and that they are free 
to accept it or reject it as they please.

Once again, I am sorry if I was unclear, but I find your comments 
wounding and unkind.
eeyore
response 4 of 84: Mark Unseen   Dec 26 10:45 UTC 2001

I think that was the point, which, while I'm used to it from this point from
Lelande, is pretty much a really bitchy thing to do.
flem
response 5 of 84: Mark Unseen   Dec 26 18:33 UTC 2001

(disclaimer:  I haven't read that link.  I'm arguing based mostly on what 
I've heard argued elsewhere, from other fundamentalists arguing the same 
basic point)

Seems to me that the problem with "reparative therapy", or ex-gay whatever,
is that it conflates, if only by juxtaposition and suggestion, two ideas that 
are best understood separately.  Consider: 

  - People who lack self-confidence or are depressed are in danger of 
    unhealthy sexual relationships and leave themselves open to abuse.  
  - People with homosexual tendencies often feel depressed and lack 
    self-confidence.  

It takes a considerable amount of mental discipline, when presented with 
these facts stated together, not to conclude that homosexuality leads to 
unhealthy relationships and abuse.  This is especially true when one has 
personally experienced abusive homosexual relationships, or when one is 
depressed or lacks self-confidence.  
  (disclaimer #2:  From here down, "you" doesn't refer to a person in this
discussion, it refers to a hypothetical third party, so don't take it 
personally, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth)
  It's pretty slick, how it works.  You want to put a stop to homosexuality, 
so you decide to try to portray homosexuality as dangerous, unhealthy, 
inherently abusive.  So you find some homosexual people who are confused, 
depressed, abused, unhealthy.  You convince them with leading arguments that 
the reason they're in pain is because they're gay, and if they'd just stop
they'd be healthy, stable, normal.  You "cure" them, feed them a meal or 
two, set them up with a job at the local sweatshop, make them feel good
for a week or two, just long enough to get some good testimonials for next
time.  Maybe they apply themselves and really make changes to their life, 
justifying your claim that homosexuality really was the problem all along, 
or maybe they backslide, in which case it's trivial to convince them that 
they've been Thinking Those Thoughts Again.  Either way, you win. You've 
firmly convinced them that homosexuality is dangerous, unhealthy, 
inherently abusive.  They'll probably even be willing to help you 
convert your next mark.  
  So it isn't just poor logic that grates on my nerves here, it's deliberate 
abuse of logic to confuse and manipulate people for your own purposes.  
Even if you truly believe that you're helping them, you're forcing them to 
change in order to receive your help, which is contemptible.  

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