response 1 of 26:

Jan 8 05:02 UTC 2002

I remember where I first heard of rap:  In a music column in "Omni" magazine,
during either its (the magazine's) first or second year.  That is, in 1978.
At the same time, I was hearing "Bootsie's Rubber Band" nigh on every morning.
(The squadbay was divided into two-man cubes, but the dividers were only about
six feet tall.  What one person listened to, we all listened to.)  So I'd say
it obvious that they share roots.

response 3 of 26:

Jan 9 00:59 UTC 2002

Funk will never die!  :)

response 5 of 26:

Jan 9 03:29 UTC 2002

I think the Lost Poets and Gil Scott Heron may have a claims to be rap roots
as well.

response 7 of 26:

Jan 9 09:28 UTC 2002

Actually, if I had been cognizant enough to include the whole of hip-
hop as I had intended, and not just rap, the parallels might have been 
even clearer, as rap is just a part of that larger genre.

Funk and hip-hop both seem to be an attitude and an expression of much 
of the same culture.  They focus on a lot of the elements of urban 
society, and so thus my thoughts.

I would be interested, however, to learn more about how rap evolved 
from toasting, and how it came to be in America.  Where would all the 
roots be?  Those that later grew techno, from what I remember 
discussed here, came largely from Detroit.  Of course, I think quite a 
bit came from the East Coast, i.e., New York, from those such as the 
Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, and a bit later, Run DMC.

response 9 of 26:

Jan 9 13:30 UTC 2002

Re-read #5!

response 11 of 26:

Jan 10 03:43 UTC 2002

Gil Scott Heron was probably best known for "The Revolution Will Not Be
Televised" in which he took jabs at society and white culture, delivering
his lyrics more as a speech than a song.  It was something of an anthem
for the Black Pride movement (or at least was inspired by that movement). 
IIRC, the Lost Poets were a NYC based group with a similar approach and
were around even earlier. I never heard any of their stuff, but I've
certainly read a lot of references to them in articles about rap history. 

response 13 of 26:

Jan 10 17:40 UTC 2002

Gil Scott Heron [hyphen?].

response 15 of 26:

Jan 10 18:57 UTC 2002

Now that I'm home and can access my CD collection:
"Gil Scott-Heron".

response 17 of 26:

Feb 8 14:24 UTC 2002

Bootsy Collins (bass player for Parliament/Fundakelic), in an NPR interview
I heard, basically summed up the difference as where the accents fell.  Soul
is basically on the 2 and 4 (although I've got some Marvin Gaye running
through my head that says 1 and 3), which ties in with the blues/jazz source.
Jame Brown put accents on somewhat odder beats, and usually at a significantly
higher tempo.  P-Funk put an accent on every single quarter note, the
"everything on the one" sound.  I think the big difference is that funk puts
more accents into a measure than soul.  

response 19 of 26:

Feb 9 01:20 UTC 2002

resp:17  Yeah, I understand Bootsy Collins is one of the funk bass 
authorities.  As for James Brown, the notion that his accent placement 
for soul.. how do you mean 'irregular'?.. is different and usually 
accompanies a faster tempo, I think, might suggest some evolution 
between soul and funk.  Granted, George Clinton and Parliment are 
later performers, so naturally, I think their interpretation of funk 
is/was probably different than Brown's.

What about Earth, Wind, and Fire?  Almost forgot about them.  From 
what little I have heard of their best material, they were slightly on 
the edge of funk leading into disco-- I think I remember Kool and the 
Gang made a more abrupt shift than they did.  "Shining Star" 
and "Boogie On Down" are examples I am thinking as far as a EWF shift 
more into disco.

Between scott and cyklone's explanation's, I think my initial 
observations concerning soul and funk might not have been far off.  
The combination of accent and beat placement seem to suggest a real 
difference in mood between the two styles; i.e., soul sounds more 
mellow, mournful, etc., and funk sounds a little peppier.  With the 
latter, emphasis on more accents would probably enhance such an effect.

I think emphasis on bass accompaniment probably influences the mood 
further.. much of funk, but not all, uses some sort of bass guitar 
instrumentation, and with the proliferation of subbass sound with the 
subwoofer (I believe, tho, Infinity introduced the sub speaker in '68 
or '69), the accent can further be enhanced with a low frequency sound.

With psychoacoustics and music therapy in mind, I do strictly define 
beat by connections to the heartbeat-- many studies suggest the 
heartbeat often changes to match the tempo (beats per minute) of music 
an individual listens to, and so I suppose some sort of suggestion of 
mood would have a basis in fact.

I remember Ken said Chicago used to employ some funk in their sound, 
especially when they were still getting away with the name Chicago 
Transit Authority.  Noting that Chicago played with marrying fusion, 
pop, and some folk rock style, eventually gravitating to the overdone 
80's power ballad, I'm also curious how they fit in.  Could the power 
ballad be in any way connected to the last sound Kool and the Gang 
employed, which seemed to be a float away from disco into the "pop 
rock" or "lite rock" sound?

I am beginning to understand why a professor of mine suggested 
musicology..

response 21 of 26:

May 20 11:05 UTC 2002

I did a little research, and I found the hip-hop group Digital 
Underground was responsible for popularizing P-Funk samples in rap 
music.  Here's a review of their debut (and most notable) 
recording, "Sex Packets" from Real One, as follows:

*
While hip-hop was consumed by the hardcore, noisy political rap of 
Public Enemy and the gangsta rap of N.W.A., Digital Underground 
sneaked out of Oakland with its bizarre, funky homage to Parliament-
Funkadelic. Building most of their music from samples P-Funk records 
and developing a similarly weird sense of style and humor, highlighted 
by Shock-G outrageous costumes, and the whole band's parade of alter 
egoes. Of all these alter egoes, Shock-G's Humpty Hump -- a ridiculous 
comical figure with a Groucho Marx nose and glasses, and a goofy, 
stuttering voice -- was the most famous, especially since he was 
immortalized on their breakthrough single, "The Humpty Dance." Over 
the course of their career, Digital Underground has featured a 
numerous members, but throughout it all, Shock-G has remained at its 
core, developing the band's sound and style, which they had from the 
outset, as their 1990 debut Sex Packets proved. Sex Packets was an 
instant hit, thanks the loopy single "The Humpty Dance," and while 
they never scaled such commercial heights ever again, their role in 
popularizing George Clinton's elastic funk made them one of the most 
important hip-hop groups of their era.
Shock-G (b. Gregory E. Jacobs, August 25, 1963) had spent most of his 
childhood moving around the East Coast with his family, eventually 
settling in the Bay Area of California. He dropped out of high school 
in the late '70s and spent several years pursuing a life of crime 
before eventually finishing his degree and going to college to study 
music. Along with Chopmaster J, Shock G formed Digital Underground in 
1987, and the duo released a single, "Underwater Rimes," that year 
which went to number one in the Netherlands. In 1989, the group signed 
with Tommy Boy and that summer "Doowutchyalike" became an underground 
hit. By that time, Digital Underground had expanded significantly, 
featuring DJ Fuze, Money-B (b. Ron Brooks), and Schmoovy-Schmoov (b. 
Earl Cook). Sex Packets, the group's debut album, was released in the 
spring of 1990, and "The Humpty Dance," which was rapped by Shock G's 
alter ego Humpty Hump, climbed all the way to number 11 on the pop 
charts, peaking at number seven on the R&B charts. With its P-Funk 
samples, jazzy interludes and innovative amaglam of samples and live 
instrumentation, Sex Packets received positive reviews and went 
platinum by the end of the year.

Digital Underground followed Sex Packets in early 1991 with This Is An 
EP Release, their first recording to feature rapper Tupac Shakur. The 
EP went gold and set the stage for their second album, Sons of the P, 
which was released that fall. On the strength of the gold single "Kiss 
You Back," Sons of the P also went gold, but it received criticism for 
its similarity to Sex Packets. By the time Digital Underground 
delivered its third album, The Body Hat Syndrome in late 1993, hip-hop 
had become dominated by gangsta rap, particularly the drawling G-funk 
of Dr. Dre, which ironically was heavily indebted to George Clinton. 
Consequently, their fan base diminished significantly, and The Body 
Hat Syndrome disappeared shortly after its release. Nearly three years 
later, Digital Underground returned with Future Rhythm, which spent a 
mere three weeks on the charts. Who Got the Gravy? followed in 1998. ~ 
Stephen Thomas Erlewine, All Music Guide
*

Of course, Snoop Dogg also sampled George Clinton as well-- "What's My 
Name" is essentially a cover of "Atomic Dog."


 

response 23 of 26:

May 22 08:23 UTC 2002

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the funk item from the previous 
music conference, but funk also seems to have been absorbed quite a 
bit into the newer styles of rock.

On this thread, I think The Red Hot Chili Peppers were probably one of 
the first bands to really put the rock-funk mix in the spotlight.  The 
fact that George Clinton mentored them in their early days is quite 
notable-- he told VH1's Behind The Music something to the effect of "I 
go where the funk is" when interviewed about his work with the Chili 
Peppers.

I worked with some rockers at my last job, and so I was listening to 
the rock station quite a bit.  Apparently, a lot of rock acts were 
drawing on funk as well as hip-hop.