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jaklumen
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The new FUNK item
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Jan 8 04:49 UTC 2002 |
Some of you may remember the funk item from the previous music cf.
It seemed to be the consensus that funk is dead, although I tend to
doubt that-- I think funk just morphed into something else.
I'm sure that can be debated, but I do think it's notable that rap
music has been strongly shaped by the particular genre. For example,
Wil Smith has listed funk music as a strong influence, and George
Clinton has admitted publicly that a lot of his royalties in recent
years have come from rap artists sampling his material. Warren G's "G
Funk Era" was just dripping with a particular funk style. Ludacris
uses a lot of funk, too, and "I've Got Hos in Different Area Codes"
was a strong example.
If rap is said to have grown from urban poetry, then, is it possible
that it shares a common root with funk? Could be a stretch, but the
fact that rap seems to use funk all the time seems like there is some
connection and continuity.
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gelinas
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response 1 of 26:
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Jan 8 05:02 UTC 2002 |
I remember where I first heard of rap: In a music column in "Omni" magazine,
during either its (the magazine's) first or second year. That is, in 1978.
At the same time, I was hearing "Bootsie's Rubber Band" nigh on every morning.
(The squadbay was divided into two-man cubes, but the dividers were only about
six feet tall. What one person listened to, we all listened to.) So I'd say
it obvious that they share roots.
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happyboy
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response 2 of 26:
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Jan 8 14:27 UTC 2002 |
george clinton is a cosmetologist...right?
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flem
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response 3 of 26:
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Jan 9 00:59 UTC 2002 |
Funk will never die! :)
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scott
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response 4 of 26:
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Jan 9 02:42 UTC 2002 |
My understanding of rapping is that it came from the Jamaican "toasting"
practiced by dub/dancehall MCs. The American adaption would of course be
based on funk, that being the state of dancable black music in the 70's other
than disco.
George Clinton, being the smart guy that he is, figured out the sampling stuff
quite early on and set himself and his music catalog (apparently he redid some
of his own classics to gain ownership of publishing rights somehow) for
easy licensing and clearance. When people wanted to sample his stuff, they
could do it without having to hire a bunch of lawyers and fight over it. As
a result Clinton got paid and more exposure via samples in rap tunes.
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cyklone
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response 5 of 26:
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Jan 9 03:29 UTC 2002 |
I think the Lost Poets and Gil Scott Heron may have a claims to be rap roots
as well.
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gelinas
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response 6 of 26:
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Jan 9 05:23 UTC 2002 |
I'm watching "Saturday Night Fever" on TNT; some of Travolta's moves show up
not much later in break dancing. So it would seem there is no bright line
between disco and breaking.
I mentioned listening to Parliament. Thinking back on what I was hearing,
very little of it was 'song'; most of it was talking to the audience over
the music, setting a scene. So I'm not convinced that there was a bright
line between "funk" and "rap", either.
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jaklumen
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response 7 of 26:
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Jan 9 09:28 UTC 2002 |
Actually, if I had been cognizant enough to include the whole of hip-
hop as I had intended, and not just rap, the parallels might have been
even clearer, as rap is just a part of that larger genre.
Funk and hip-hop both seem to be an attitude and an expression of much
of the same culture. They focus on a lot of the elements of urban
society, and so thus my thoughts.
I would be interested, however, to learn more about how rap evolved
from toasting, and how it came to be in America. Where would all the
roots be? Those that later grew techno, from what I remember
discussed here, came largely from Detroit. Of course, I think quite a
bit came from the East Coast, i.e., New York, from those such as the
Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, and a bit later, Run DMC.
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scott
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response 8 of 26:
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Jan 9 13:30 UTC 2002 |
Hmm... "Africaa Bambataa" [spelled weird like that, I forget exactly how]
is supposed to have been a key link in rapping and especially turntable stuff.
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cyklone
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response 9 of 26:
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Jan 9 13:30 UTC 2002 |
Re-read #5!
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jaklumen
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response 10 of 26:
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Jan 10 02:34 UTC 2002 |
resp:5 Not familiar with those artists; care to enlighten me?
Again, in the other item, we discussed the connections to disco: I
think, at least in part, that there was crossover, if you want to look
at disco and funk as separate, and that the former and latter were the
white and black sounds, respectively, at first. Therefore, "KC and
the Sunshine Band" could be counted as one of the first bands to start
crossing over the sounds successfully.
Just a hypothesis-- anyone have a different perspective?
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cyklone
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response 11 of 26:
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Jan 10 03:43 UTC 2002 |
Gil Scott Heron was probably best known for "The Revolution Will Not Be
Televised" in which he took jabs at society and white culture, delivering
his lyrics more as a speech than a song. It was something of an anthem
for the Black Pride movement (or at least was inspired by that movement).
IIRC, the Lost Poets were a NYC based group with a similar approach and
were around even earlier. I never heard any of their stuff, but I've
certainly read a lot of references to them in articles about rap history.
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happyboy
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response 12 of 26:
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Jan 10 16:23 UTC 2002 |
"...and whitey's on the moon..."
who wrote that?
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scott
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response 13 of 26:
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Jan 10 17:40 UTC 2002 |
Gil Scott Heron [hyphen?].
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cyklone
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response 14 of 26:
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Jan 10 18:17 UTC 2002 |
Yeah, there may be a hyphen in there somewhere ;)
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scott
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response 15 of 26:
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Jan 10 18:57 UTC 2002 |
Now that I'm home and can access my CD collection:
"Gil Scott-Heron".
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jaklumen
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response 16 of 26:
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Feb 8 04:42 UTC 2002 |
There was also another area that I was wondering about-- what's the
difference between funk and soul? More accurately, how did the sound
branch out? I am assuming soul is an earlier sound than funk, but I
find the connections elusive (without a ton of study time I can't make
right now; musicology can't pay the bills).
I am assuming soul descended from the family tree of jazz and rhythm
and blues (I am recalling an old Entertainment Weekly listing an
obituary of celebrities; one was a black.. musicologist, apparently,
judging from the flowchart/tree that was written on a blackboard
behind him).
I am also assuming that James Brown had a heavy hand in the evolving
sound, as he is associated with funk, and yet is called "The Godfather
of Soul."
Did fusion have an influence?
The interplay between funk and disco seems to clearer to me, somewhat,
if only that I can list that Kool and The Gang seems to be one group
that bridged the gap. Oddly enough, I wonder if they returned to the
cycle-- they eventually turned to a 'lite pop rock' twist on their
style that I think might have a little bit of influence in some of
contemporary soul.
Granted, these are wild extrapolations, and I will need to do some
heavy homework sometime deep in a music library.
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scott
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response 17 of 26:
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Feb 8 14:24 UTC 2002 |
Bootsy Collins (bass player for Parliament/Fundakelic), in an NPR interview
I heard, basically summed up the difference as where the accents fell. Soul
is basically on the 2 and 4 (although I've got some Marvin Gaye running
through my head that says 1 and 3), which ties in with the blues/jazz source.
Jame Brown put accents on somewhat odder beats, and usually at a significantly
higher tempo. P-Funk put an accent on every single quarter note, the
"everything on the one" sound. I think the big difference is that funk puts
more accents into a measure than soul.
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cyklone
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response 18 of 26:
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Feb 8 21:40 UTC 2002 |
I like that explanation. To confuse things further, I would also point out
that a lot of soul music is played on the "back" part of the beat. I am
*not* referring to the 2 and 4 that you are talking about, I mean every
beat. It's a concept that throws a lot of very experienced musicians, who
think you are either on or off the beat. In fact, there is a certain
amount of wiggle room. At the extremes, someone too far "in front" sounds
like they are rushing or pushing the beat, and someone to far "behind" can
sound like they are dragging (even though they are keeping the correct
tempo). Anyway, my observation is that funk tends to be much more on the
"front" of the beat as compared to soul.
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jaklumen
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response 19 of 26:
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Feb 9 01:20 UTC 2002 |
resp:17 Yeah, I understand Bootsy Collins is one of the funk bass
authorities. As for James Brown, the notion that his accent placement
for soul.. how do you mean 'irregular'?.. is different and usually
accompanies a faster tempo, I think, might suggest some evolution
between soul and funk. Granted, George Clinton and Parliment are
later performers, so naturally, I think their interpretation of funk
is/was probably different than Brown's.
What about Earth, Wind, and Fire? Almost forgot about them. From
what little I have heard of their best material, they were slightly on
the edge of funk leading into disco-- I think I remember Kool and the
Gang made a more abrupt shift than they did. "Shining Star"
and "Boogie On Down" are examples I am thinking as far as a EWF shift
more into disco.
Between scott and cyklone's explanation's, I think my initial
observations concerning soul and funk might not have been far off.
The combination of accent and beat placement seem to suggest a real
difference in mood between the two styles; i.e., soul sounds more
mellow, mournful, etc., and funk sounds a little peppier. With the
latter, emphasis on more accents would probably enhance such an effect.
I think emphasis on bass accompaniment probably influences the mood
further.. much of funk, but not all, uses some sort of bass guitar
instrumentation, and with the proliferation of subbass sound with the
subwoofer (I believe, tho, Infinity introduced the sub speaker in '68
or '69), the accent can further be enhanced with a low frequency sound.
With psychoacoustics and music therapy in mind, I do strictly define
beat by connections to the heartbeat-- many studies suggest the
heartbeat often changes to match the tempo (beats per minute) of music
an individual listens to, and so I suppose some sort of suggestion of
mood would have a basis in fact.
I remember Ken said Chicago used to employ some funk in their sound,
especially when they were still getting away with the name Chicago
Transit Authority. Noting that Chicago played with marrying fusion,
pop, and some folk rock style, eventually gravitating to the overdone
80's power ballad, I'm also curious how they fit in. Could the power
ballad be in any way connected to the last sound Kool and the Gang
employed, which seemed to be a float away from disco into the "pop
rock" or "lite rock" sound?
I am beginning to understand why a professor of mine suggested
musicology..
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