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Grex > Agora46 > #17: affirmative action - UM - supreme court (wha-hoppin?!) | |
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tsty
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affirmative action - UM - supreme court (wha-hoppin?!)
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Jun 23 20:24 UTC 2003 |
supreme court, in two split decisions, upheld and trashed affirmative
action at UM. ... wel, which is it? upheld or trashed.
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| 113 responses total. |
orinoco
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response 1 of 113:
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Jun 23 20:37 UTC 2003 |
My understanding is that they voted against the "bonus points for minorities"
system that the U of M uses for undergrads, but upheld the less-blatant
preference system that the Law School uses.
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mary
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response 2 of 113:
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Jun 23 20:51 UTC 2003 |
The Supreme Court ruled today on racial balancing though college
admissions policies. The policy of U of M's undergraduate admissions
allowed for 20 additional points (out of 150 total) to be awarded based on
the applicant being of an under-represented race. The U of M's law school
policy didn't award points but allowed prejudice in selecting for race
among qualified applicants.
Or at least that's how I understand the issue.
The court ruled against the undergraduate policy but left the law school
policy stand.
I interpret this to mean it's fine for a school to select for a racially
balanced student body among equally qualified applicants. But it goes too
far to use race as a mechanism for joining the qualified pool of
applicants.
If I got that right then I'm pleased with the ruling. It's time.
The vote was 6-to-3 on the undergraduate ruling and 5-to-4 on the
law school verdict.
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slynne
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response 3 of 113:
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Jun 24 00:01 UTC 2003 |
Maybe UofM can give the same number of points for living in the city of
Detroit as they do for living in certain rural counties.
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dcat
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response 4 of 113:
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Jun 24 00:34 UTC 2003 |
For those who aren't on the UM's email system, excerpts from a campus-wide
email written by President Coleman:
----
A majority of the Court has strongly reaffirmed the principle of diversity
articulated by justice Powell in the Bakke decision. The Court said that it
"endorses Justice Powell's view that student body diversity is a compelling
state interest." Universities can continue to use race as one of many factors
in an individualized admissions process.
[...]
These decisions are a wonderful victory for the University of Michigan, for all
of higher education, and for the hundreds of groups and thousands of
individuals who supported us.
The Court has provided two important signals. The first is a green light to
pursue racial and ethnic diversity in the college classroom. The second is a
pathway to get us there. The Law School policy clearly met the Court's
criteria for a holistic admissions process. We will modify our undergraduate
admissions process to follow today's guidance from the Court. . . . We expect
to have a revised undergraduate admissions process in place this Autumn.
[...]
I am proud of the role of the University of Michigan in this important debate.
We argued for fair and equal access. Now, we will do whatever it takes to
recruit the finest, most diverse student body possible, within the provisions
of today's decisions.
[...]
[O]ur commitment to a diverse campus will continue. . . . [And,] every student
admitted to our University will continue to be eminently well qualified.
[...]
I expect that members of our community will engage in a full and robust debate
of many related issues. I anticipate this discussion will be civil and
respectful of all points of view. Your right to freedom of expression is
paramount at the University of Michigan. This is a hallmark of our educational
system, and one of which I am most proud.
In the coming days and weeks, we will continue to provide updated information
on our main University WWW site [www.umich.edu].
This is an historic day for our University. You may look to me for leadership
as we adapt to the new provisions of the law, and I will look to all of you for
inspiration.
With my best wishes,
Mary Sue Coleman
President
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senna
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response 5 of 113:
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Jun 24 02:59 UTC 2003 |
The bandaid can remain. Who is going to regrow the severed arm?
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edina
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response 6 of 113:
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Jun 24 12:08 UTC 2003 |
Severed arm?? What severed arm?
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novomit
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response 7 of 113:
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Jun 24 12:32 UTC 2003 |
It would have been nice if, having said that affirmative action was
acceptable, if the courts had given a suggestion as to how it should be
implemented as opposed to how it shouldn't be. Sounds like they were
told they could use race as a means of diversifying the campus
population, but weren't given any means as to how they could accomplish
this.
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other
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response 8 of 113:
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Jun 24 13:12 UTC 2003 |
It is far nicer that the courts only specify what cannot be done, and
leave open what remains, rather than specifying what can be done.
Mainly, this is because the courts cannot possibly imagine all possible
scenarios which their rulings may affect.
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sj2
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response 9 of 113:
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Jun 24 13:21 UTC 2003 |
Why do they need to consider race for making admission decisions?
Aren't academic and other merits sufficient?
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jep
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response 10 of 113:
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Jun 24 13:40 UTC 2003 |
I haven't read that much about the rulings. What's struck me most is
Mary Sue Coleman, president of U-M, citing the new decisions as
unqualified victory. It seems she was willing to cite just about
anything as a victory. I whimsically imagine a decision like this:
Supreme Court: We rule the U-M has used racial quotas, which is
discriminatory. The U-M should be disbanded and it's grounds sewn with
salt.
Coleman: We hail this ruling as an unqualified victory. The Supreme
Court has clearly supported U-M in it's pursuit of diversity by not
mandating what brand of salt.
In fact, the Supreme Court has *ended* U-M's policy of giving 20 bonus
points to racial minorities for undergraduate admissions, which is the
means the university has used to achieve the racial balance they
wanted. The door has been left open to giving racial preference, but
only on a case by case basis. Individually! It seems to me this will
either cut way back on racial preference, or make it very, very
expensive for the university.
In practice, I don't think even the U-M can do *all* of it's admissions
on an individual case by case basis. That's what they'd need to do to
even approach the racial percentages they've tried to maintain.
President Coleman has managed, very quickly and efficiently, to put a
positive spin on it for the university and to get that spin quoted
nation-wide in headlines. Good for her. But I don't see how the
Supreme Court could have ruled much more against U-M's policies. I
think this was a nearly complete loss for the university's racial
preference system, and for colleges across the country which try to
achieve or maintain racial quotas, percentages or "balances".
I mostly don't know what I think about the rulings yet. We'll see what
the effects are in 10 years or so. I expect I'll have formed opinions
about these two decisions before then. (-:
I did see something to be optimistic about in what little I've read.
The Supreme Court appears to believe racial preferences are a temporary
measure which ought to be dispensed with at some point. Justice Sandra
Day O'Connor wrote, "We expect that 25 years from now, the use of
racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest
approved today." Also from O'Conner: "We take the law school at its
word that it would 'like nothing better than to find a race-neutral
admissions formula' and will terminate its race-conscious admissions
program as soon as practicable."
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gull
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response 11 of 113:
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Jun 24 13:47 UTC 2003 |
I think the main effect will be more litigation. It's a victory in the
sense that the Supreme Court didn't outlaw affirmative action
altogether, but what exactly universities are allowed to do with it now
is pretty murkey and will probably have to be hashed out in court over time.
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bhelliom
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response 12 of 113:
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Jun 24 14:11 UTC 2003 |
The plantiffs were absolutely hypocritical in pressing race as the main
thrust of their suit. Preferential treatment will still be given to
children of alumni and athletes, and applicants from certain
geographical areas. This suit wasn't really about equality of
education.
In order for there to be an equal playing field for admissions,
students should have equal opportunitirees to meet standards. They do
not.
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bhelliom
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response 13 of 113:
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Jun 24 14:12 UTC 2003 |
I accidentally hid that response. Read at will, and my apologies!
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jep
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response 14 of 113:
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Jun 24 15:14 UTC 2003 |
re resp:9: You see, there have been a couple of centuries of racial
discrimination in America, deciding privileges and rights for people
based on their skin color. These have greatly harmed those who aren't
descended from Europeans. No ethnic group has overcome this
discrimination, except all of them who aren't African-Americans, so the
obstacles are clearly proven to be insurmountable.
Obviously the only thing that can be done to combat the effects of two
centuries of racial discrimination is privileges and rights for people
based on their skin color. This is of course *not* racial
discrimination. We know that, because racial discrimination is bad,
and this isn't bad. It's affirmative action, you see. It's completely
different. Make no mistake about *that*.
Statistics have been warped and stretched (and even made up) to show it
works. In some cases, it hasn't worked at all, but the answer to that
is more rights and privileges based on skin color. Questioning that in
any way means you're a racist because affirmative action is good, so
opposing it is bad. In case you think you can oppose it without being
branded as a maniac, saying you're opposing it because it causes more
harm than good is "code words" for a desire to return to the days of
slavery. Anyone like that has to be shut up and ridiculed because we
believe in free speech. Free speech is good, of course. We have a
Constitutional right to free speech. Since being a racist anti-
affirmative action nut would be bad, it's hate speech, which is
something different.
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oval
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response 15 of 113:
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Jun 24 15:19 UTC 2003 |
*blinks*
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jep
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response 16 of 113:
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Jun 24 15:21 UTC 2003 |
re resp:13: resp:12 is not hidden.
re resp:12: I don't think any of the plaintiffs would have taken a case
to the Supreme Court by themselves. Someone (CIL, Center for
Individual Liberties I believe) dug them up, convinced them they'd been
wronged, and used them to bear their standard.
I don't think the case was about equality. I think it was about giving
special privileges based on race. I think there's plenty of room for
another ground-breaking suit which would be about preferences for
alumni, athletes, and geographical areas. I don't think there'd be as
much attention given to any of those suits as there was for this one;
it wouldn't be about race and therefore wouldn't be as hot a topic.
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edina
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response 17 of 113:
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Jun 24 15:32 UTC 2003 |
I just found it amusing that one of the dissentors (Thomas) is a major product
of affirmative action.
I saw a sign in the paper today that basically said, "Affirmative action
exists because racism exists". White people rarely think of the color of
their skin as being beneficial or detrimental - it just is. Do you think
black/asian/hispanic people could answer that question the same way?
I think the law school's standards being upheld was a good thing - and I think
the undergrad's standards being stricken was also good. It's a lot easier
to funnel through law school apps than UG apps.
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scott
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response 18 of 113:
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Jun 24 16:04 UTC 2003 |
("does not always work" != "does not work")
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