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| Author |
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phenix
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hoe or no?
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Sep 6 20:49 UTC 2001 |
ok, with the recent sucess(?) or at least not falming disastor that is the
legalization of prostitution in toronto and windsor, as well as our european
friends, how do you feel about it?
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| 24 responses total. |
i
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response 1 of 24:
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Sep 15 04:06 UTC 2001 |
Legal or now, prostitution has certain "institutional" problems....
Let's start with disease. In terms of worker safety, how different is a
legal prostitute from a nuclear industry worker with an "allowed annual
radiation exposure limit" of infinity? True, HIV spreads more & costs
more to treat than radiation exposure....
Then there's the often minimal difference between "sex industry worker"
and "slave". Valerie & janc noted how the workers at the "asian massage
business" that they once lived next to never *ever* left the building...
that was in the middle of Ann Arbor. Workers' rights awareness, regular
enforcement of same, etc. aren't likely to be better elsewhere...
These are problems whether prostitution is legal or not. Assuming that
someone cares about 'em, which way will make it easier to seriously
address these problems?
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phenix
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response 2 of 24:
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Sep 15 14:13 UTC 2001 |
well, legal and a) you can have your workers go home w/out fear of them
telling anyone of what goes on.
b) you can get a union (which as my understanding is what happend in amsterdam)
institutionalizing it allows it to happen in a single designated place,
you can then justify tightening the penalties for unliscenced practitioners
same thing they did with doctors.
also, you get to tax a trade currently doing nothing but costing
the society.
as to forced labour, that is a problem of any industry that no one wants
to pay attention too, itenerant workers, domestic service, and the illegal
industries of sex, drug running, and even garmet sweat shops in the us
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brighn
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response 3 of 24:
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Sep 16 03:18 UTC 2001 |
Obvious question: If Valerie and janc never *ever* saw the workers enter or
leave, what evidence did Valerie and janc have that there WERE workers inside?
Obvious quesiton #2: If Valeerie and janc never *ever* saw the workers enter
or leave, didn't Valerie and janc have anything better to do than to stand
24/7 watch on the next-door massage parlor.
I'm more inclined to think that maybe neither of them happened ever to see
any workers go in or out.
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i
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response 4 of 24:
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Sep 16 23:20 UTC 2001 |
A couple answers, brighn...
1.) I'm using "least hypothesis" and figuring that a place called "Asian
Spa" that (too casual observation over many months) appears to have all-
fairly-well-to-do-male customers who don't stay very long is some sort of
business that requires on-site employees. Regular patronage of the
establishment, casual questioning of any persons who seem like they might
be employees, and cross-checking stories of same would obviously give a
stronger (though still not proven) conclusion.
2.) I'm using the phrase "never *ever* saw X" to indicate that there is
no occurence of X in the available dataset, not that X has never occurred.
Nothing suggests that valerie & janc went beyond the level of "idle but
quite amused frequent" observation of "Asia Spa" while living next door.
Obviously 24/7/365 observational data would let us draw substantially
stronger conclusions. Unfortunately, we've no research grant to fund it.
Re: #2 -
Yes, legalization with *steady*, *active* regulation and enforcement has
a number of advantages. It also requires that government really care.
I've serious doubts about this because of US government's very poor record
in similar "very bottom of the employment barrel" industries (some of which
you mention). Legalization of habitually highly abusive (whether of the
employees, environment, or whatever) industries without serious, reliable
regulation strikes me as vastly more a favor to amoral businesses than to
their regular victims.
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brighn
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response 5 of 24:
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Sep 17 14:45 UTC 2001 |
Casual observation of any place of business would yield a very significantly
higher probability of seeing patrons enter and exit than seeing employees
enter and exit, else the place of business is not being very successful. It's
also possible that there is a separate employee entrance of which Valerie and
janc are unaware, although they may be aware that there isn't such an
entrance.
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raqueem
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response 6 of 24:
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Sep 30 19:09 UTC 2001 |
What's up with all the negativity? I think hoe's are cool.They keep the sick
frustrated men of the street (me that is). Somethimes in the weekend i go
round these bars and find no chick to take home with me. Well, then ... you
know the rest ..
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flem
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response 7 of 24:
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Oct 1 14:55 UTC 2001 |
Dude, raqueem's my hero.
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eeyore
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response 8 of 24:
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Oct 2 05:50 UTC 2001 |
I guess from a customer's standpoint, I have no issues with prostitution.
What a customer decides to do with his or her body is up to them. yeah, there
are the risks of diseases and whatnot....but it's their choice to make those
risks.
From the viewpoint of the worker, as long as they are doing this voluntarily,
why make a fuss. There are alot of women and men who do this because they
want to. More power to them!
I do like Amsterdam's solution, as it should help keep the disease and issuses
down a little bit.
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senna
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response 9 of 24:
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Oct 2 21:51 UTC 2001 |
Regulation is a lot easier when something like this is legalized, at least
at the regulated locations. With stiffer penalties for unlicensed facilities,
the fiscal advantages of "going legal" would be too good to pass up.
Which isn't to say I'm necessarily in favor of such action, but there is merit
to arguments in favor of it.
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void
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response 10 of 24:
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Jan 6 12:16 UTC 2002 |
The counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal have very few
(if any) problems similar to those where it's still banned. I think
hooking ought to be legalized and taxed, with the taxes earmarked for
funding public schools.
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jaklumen
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response 11 of 24:
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Jan 6 13:21 UTC 2002 |
I'm with i on this one. I can't support it from a moral standpoint,
but I do think it's worthy to note that legalization will probably
benefit the employer more than the employees as he said. The comment
that it is a highly habitually abusive industry is also key-- I
seriously doubt that views of U.S. society will strongly change
towards prostitution.
In some areas where prostitution is legal, there has also been some
legalization of drug use. This would be true in Amsterdam and
Vancouver, B.C., as far as I know. It is also regulated to use in
public areas and restricted to minors. I am not sure what drugs are
legal in Amsterdam, but in Vancouver, it is limited to cannabis
(marijuana). Prostitution and dealing of illicit drugs often are side
by side crimes, and so I note that there has been some legalization of
drugs.
I'm not sure what the case is in Nevada, because there are the
counties where it is still legal, and there are the ones where it has
been banned. Nevada has had a long reputation, however, long before
La Cosa Nostra took an interest in its development. The prospects of
gambling had already long been established in the early Western
settlements of the gold rush days. I don't know if prostitutes gained
better rights under the business structure of legal gambling, but I do
know that a number of the business are somewhat more self-regulated in
their support the trade.
Of course, there are a number of prostitutes who supplement their
income in related industries such as stripping and the adult media
industry. It seems that such industries will likely consolidate more,
and therefore, attitudes toward any of them will be a factor. I would
say this is probably truer in the 'hardcore' designations of adult
media.
I realize that comparing Prohibition and such to this issue might be a
poor reflection, but perhaps current issues with cigarette and alcohol
use, taxes, etc. might be an interesting study when considering a
hypothesis of socially and legally accepted prostitution.
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void
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response 12 of 24:
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Jan 6 20:28 UTC 2002 |
Wow, jaklumen, there's a lot here. Morality and law are separate
issues. Legalizing prostitution would benefit the employees, since
legalization also often means regulation. As in regular medical exams
and requirements for health certificates which would exclude hookers
who are HIV+ or junkies. Requirements for health certificates and drug
testing would immediately end several of the abuses perpetrated on
hookers by pimps determined to force them to work. That right there
is an enormous benefit to the employees. As I understand it,
prostitutes in Nevada share 50-70% of their take with the bordello
owners. 70% is a little steeper than some cab companies which charge
cab rent on a percentage basis, but only by 5-10% or so. Frankly, if I
were going to avail myself of a prostitute's services, I'd rather go
someplace where I knew the workers were required to adhere to health and
sanitation standards rather than some dingy and questionable apartment in
a dingy and questionable part of town.
How many strippers have you ever actually known? While certainly
not unheard of, strippers who sell it on the side are not as common
as most people think. Strippers tend to make more just stripping than
most prostitutes except for the posher escorts.
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