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ajax
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Why a Sun 4/6xx?
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Dec 23 17:25 UTC 1996 |
Someone asked elsewhere why we want a Sun 4/6xx system. The following
details some of the reasoning behind getting a 4/6xx by comparing
different system attributes and costs. I'm entering this separately
from the pledge item, because I expect it's more technical than most
people care about, and this could spur a lot of discussion on its own.
I'm not a Sun expert, and I expect that Sun experts who read this will
chime in with several corrections/additions.
For Grex's needs, we want a machine that meets the following criteria:
It needs to use a SPARC microprocessor that supports SunOS 4.1.x.
It needs to support more memory than the 128MB of our Sun 4/260.
It needs to support more hardware contexts than the 16 of our Sun 4/260.
It needs to be affordable.
That narrows the field to something like the following:
Sun 4/4xx, SS LX, SS 4, SS 5, 4/6xx, SS 10, or Sun clones.
Desirable but non-essential features, some of which conflict: small,
low power consumption, support our VME multiport serial cards (called
ALM2s), use popular (thus cheap) 72-pin or 168-pin SIMMs or DIMMs,
support fast SCSI-2, support ECC memory, support multiple ugpradeable
processors.
4/4xx: Big, power-hungry, single non-upgradeable CPU that supports 64
hardware contexts, needs 4/4xx-specific memory cards w/soldered
memory chips, relatively hard to come by. Can use our current
case, multiport VME serial cards, and SCSI card.
SS LX: Smallish "lunchbox" case, single non-upgradeable CPU that
supports 64 hardware contexts, takes six 4MB-16MB SIMMs, don't
know much about this one. CPU quite a bit faster than 4/4xx.
SS 4: Smallish "pizzabox", 80 Watt max, single non-upgradeable CPU
with 256 hardware contexts (designed as a single- user
machine). Can't use our current multiport VME serial cards.
5 168-pin DIMM slots, 8 or 32 MB 60ns DIMMs (max memory 160 MB),
fast SCSI2.
SS 5: Similar to SS4, but with 8 SIMM slots (max memory 256 MB)
4/6xx: Big, power-hungry, takes up to two upgradeable processor
modules, 32 slots for older & pricier 30-pin SIMMs (1, 4, or 16
megs, for 512 MB total), which need to be added in groups of
16. Can use our current case and multiport VME serial cards.
Only multiple processor machine for which Sun officially
supported SunOS. Built-in SCSI2 [or Fast SCSI2 on later models
(slow=5MB/s, fast=10MB/s)]. With basic SM100 processor modules
each CPU supports 4,096 hardware contexts.
SS 10: Smallish "pizzabox", 400 Watt max, takes up to two upgradeable
processor modules, eight 200-pin SIMM slots for 16, 32, or 64
MB 80ns ECC SIMMs (total 512 MB), fast SCSI2 (10MB/sec). ISDN
built in to early models. A typical SuperSPARC processor
module supports 65,536 hardware contexts.
If Grex had a bit more money to spend, an SS10 would be an attractive
option. We'd need to get a terminal server online before the SS10
went online, since we couldn't use our multiport serial cards, but
that would be doable. We could probably get the lowest-end single-
processor SS10 with 128MB of RAM for around $3000, compared to $2100
for a similar 4/600. On the other hand, that extra $900 would
probably be better spent getting 256 MB, rather than 128 MB, for
a 4/600. (Note that SS10 and 4/6xx SIMMs both cost around 50% more
than common modern PC SIMMs).
I scanned Usenet and web price listings for a bunch of different
machines sold recently. Actually, most 4/400 prices and some 4/600
prices are from earlier this year, but other prices are mostly
since September. This gives a good idea for the market value of
various systems. To help compare dissimilar systems, I usually
figure disks are worth about $100/gig, and memory worth about $6/meg.
$350 4/400 0MB/0MB no case; CPU board only
$500 4/400 64MB/0MB no case; CPU board and two 32MB boards only
$700 (4/400) 0MB/0MB memory board only, no RAM installed (!)
$1600 4/400 32MB/565MB CD-ROM
$2600 4/470 128MB/0MB CD-ROM, 150MB tape, ALM-2
$4500 4/400 192MB/0MB no case; CPU and 3 memory cards
$850 4/470 32MB/1GB CD-ROM
$3000 4/470 64MB/2.6GB
$1400 4/470 32MB/327MB CD-ROM, 150MB tape, ALM-2, 19" mono
$1000 4/490 64MB/6GB SMD disks, located in Belgium
$1800 4/490 32MB/660MB CD-ROM, 150MB tape, 19" mono
$2000 4/490 32MB/660MB CD-ROM, 150MB tape
$1320 SS LX 24MB/424MB, 1 yr warranty
$1695 SS LX 32MB/1GB 19" color, 1 yr warranty
$1250 SS LX 40MB/424MB 19" color
$2800 SS LX 96MB/1GB, Solaris CD
$1395 SS LX 16MB/424MB 16" color, 3 month warranty
$1450 SS LX 32MB/1GB, 3 month warranty
$1200 SS LX 16MB/424MB 16" color, 3 month warranty
$3500 SS5 clone, 128MB/1GB , new 6 month warranty
$2200 SS5/70 32MB/1GB
$2950 SS5/85 32MB/1GB $2950, 3 month warranty
$6400 4/670 80MB/1GB CD-ROM with two SM100 modules
$2900 4/670 0MB/0MB no case, CPU with two SM41 SuperSPARC modules
$1750 4/630 64MB/1GB CD-ROM (the one Grex is considering, minus disk & CD)
$750 4/600 0MB/0GB no case, CPU (missing boot PROM), two SM100 modules
$700 (4/600) 128MB/0GB no case, 2 memory boards w/SIMMs (sold by prev seller)
$850 4/600 0MB/0GB no case, CPU board only, not even processor modules
$750 (4/600) 0MB/0GB no case, memory board only (sold by prev seller)
$3850 SS10/40 32MB/1GB 20" color, 1 yr warranty
$2200 SS10/30 32MB/424MB
$2900 SS10/41 64MB/1GB
$2500 SS10/30 32MB/1GB
$2850 SS10/51 32MB/2GB
$2100 SS10/40 128MB/1GB (started at $3700, seller panicked)
$3100 SS10/51 64MB/1GB
$3350 SS10/41 32MB/1GB 19" color
$2800 SS10/30 16MB/424MB 16" color
$3350 SS10/30 96MB/???, 17" color, 3 month warranty
$2300 SS10/41 32MB/1GB, 3 month warranty
$3250 SS10/30 32MB/424MB 17" color
$4000 SS10/51 64MB/1GB
$3495 SS10/50 32MB/1GB
$3200 SS10/40 64MB/1GB 19" color
$2585 SS10/41 32MB/1GB, 3 month warranty
$5200 SS10/30 96MB/1GB 20" color, 3 month warranty
$3500 SS10/50 64MB/4GB *Axil Clone*
$2995 SS10/30 32MB/424MB 16" color, 3 month warranty
$1900 SS10/?? 0MB/0MB
$2450 SS10/30 32MB/848MB
$3125 SS10/41 32MB/1GB, 3 month warranty
$2995 SS10/30 32MB/424 19" color, 3 month warranty
I also jotted down some prices for processor modules, which can be
plugged in to the 4/6xx or SS10 (both systems take up to two modules).
SM100/7 $100
SM100/8 $200 (revision needed to run Solaris)
SM30 $50
SM40 $175
SM41 $235/$424/$450
SM51 $700/$1000
SM61 $1000
SM71 $1500/$1600
The 4/6xx we're considering definitely has a good cost:benefit ratio.
When you look at our other options, I think it's clear why we're
gravitating toward that as the next logical machine beyond the 4/4xx
class.
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| 58 responses total. |
tsty
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response 1 of 58:
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Dec 27 18:56 UTC 1996 |
research workz - much thankx! and the environment for discussion too.
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ajax
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response 2 of 58:
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Dec 28 20:35 UTC 1996 |
To expand a bit on the memory situation with a Sun 4/600, it
takes 80ns 30-pin parity SIMMs, which lately cost more than
twice as much as modern 72-pin SIMMs. For instance, you can buy
new 8 meg SIMMs for $3.25 per meg, while the best deal I've seen
on 16 MB 30-pin SIMMs is about $6.90 per meg. I expect both
prices will continue dropping, and in a year, if 1997 is like
1996, the price on 72-pin SIMMs will be under $1 per meg, and
under $2 per meg for 30-pin SIMMs.
That leaves the question of how much memory to get right now.
Here's the situation. A 4/600 board has 32 SIMM slots, and you
can add up to two separate memory cards to add more (I think
they have 16 SIMM slots each, but possibly they have 32).
However, you need to fill the SIMM slots 16 SIMMs at a time,
with all the same type of SIMM. The SIMMs have to be 1, 4, or
16 megabytes. Excluding the 1 meg SIMMs, that leaves the
following combinations without extra memory boards:
128 MB - 32 4 meg SIMMs
256 MB - 16 16 meg SIMMs
320 MB - 16 4 meg SIMMs, 16 16 meg SIMMs
512 MB - 32 16 meg SIMMs
If we get a 4/600 with 32 4 meg SIMMs now, giving us a 128 MB
system, then to add more memory, we'd either need an extra memory
board, or else we'd need to remove half the 4 meg SIMMs to make
room for the 16 meg SIMMs. If we instead got 16 16 meg SIMMs now,
giving us a 256 meg system, we'd have 16 SIMM slots free for
future expansion. Ultimately, we'll probably fill the machine
with a half gig or gig of RAM, as rapidly falling memory prices
make such formerly absurd-sounding capacities more affordable.
To get 256 megs of RAM right now, rather than 128 megs of RAM,
we'd need to look carefully at the financing. The pledges are
still rolling in, and I think we can save money on some of the
purchases to make this a possibility. One way of saving money
is a source I just found for a bare 4/600 board (no case, no RAM,
no CPU) for $500, another source selling CPU modules for $100 each
(we'd want two), and a third source for a case for $200. I'll
post more details as they solidify. I also expect 30-pin SIMM
prices to drop several percent in the next month, so briefly
delaying the RAM purchase might save a couple hundred bucks.
Whatever final solution is proposed, it will take some serious
consideration by the board, and advice from staff. Here are
two possible prices for 256 meg systems, the first with the
originally proposed source, the second with a group of sources.
(And I think we can probably squeeze a bit more out of either
scenario).
$1525 4/630 (board, case, 64 megs RAM, two SM100s)
$1760 256 megs of 16 meg SIMMs (@ $110 each)
$50 Sun-bootable CD-ROM drive
-$200 selling the 64 megs of 4 meg SIMMs
$260 shipping
-----------------------------------------------------
$3395 total (256 MB quad-processor in Sun 4/630 case)
$1760 256 megs of 16 meg SIMMs (@ $110 each)
$500 4/600 board
$210 case
$200 two SM100 dual 40 MHz processor modules
$50 Sun-bootable CD-ROM drive
$70 shipping
-----------------------------------------------------
$2790 total (256 MB quad-processor in Sun 4/x70 case)
As far as paying for it, there are different ways of viewing
the "excess" contributions, and memberships gained during the
pledge drive, but here's one way of looking at it:
$1100 savings (authorized by board for a 128 MB 4/400)
$1411 pledged by users
------------------------------------------------------
$2511 total
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ajax
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response 3 of 58:
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Dec 28 23:08 UTC 1996 |
I just came across a 12/28 ad for non-parity 16 meg 30-pin SIMMs for
$85 each. We'd need parity SIMMs, but that's a sizeable drop from the
previously cheapest source I saw, at $110 per SIMM. Hopefully other
30-pin SIMMs prices will take a similar dive...they seem overdue for it.
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tsty
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response 4 of 58:
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Dec 29 07:42 UTC 1996 |
<wherever that place is which needs $260 shipping... i might be able
to consider a tradeout of $ for me doing a round trip ...even if it
costs me a few cents more.>
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ajax
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response 5 of 58:
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Dec 29 09:41 UTC 1996 |
For that scenario, about $50 is for carefully shipping CPU boards by Fed Ex,
and about $200 is to move a really heavy computer case (100+ pounds?) from
California. Shipping costs are estimates only.
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dang
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response 6 of 58:
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Dec 29 16:55 UTC 1996 |
And the other way, we don't have to ship a case? That seems a bit strange...
BTW, how big *is* this case that it weighs 100 lbs? I've only heard of one
computer case that weighed that much, and it was a *Prime*!
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ajax
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response 7 of 58:
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Dec 29 19:52 UTC 1996 |
Hm, maybe the case doesn't weigh that much, but it sure seemed heavy
when I tried to lift a 4/x70 case. (That might have had some full-height
hard drives in it, too). I'd guess Grex's current case weighs that much,
too, though I haven't tried lifting it. Have you seen how big that is?
I'm not positive what cases are compatible with 4/600 cards. There was
some discussion in mail amongst staff, but I didn't get one of the replies,
and I think GregC is out of town, and he's probably the best person to
clarify this (he has a Sun Field Engineer's Manual). It's possible we won't
need the 4/630 case, as we might get a compatible case locally, but it's
also possible a 4/6x0 needs special backplanes in the case. We'll figure
this out before ordering anything :-).
I came across a Sun MBus processor module table (www.mce.com/sun1.html)
which points out a drawback of the 4/600MP over an SS10 or SS20. According
to that, the 4/600 can't take all MBus modules, but only SM100's (the
default dual 40 MHz Ross RT605's), SM41's (a 40 MHz SuperSPARC with 1
MB cache), SM51's (50 MHz SuperSPARC w/1 MB cache, and SM520's (basically
a dual processor SM51 module.
The SS10, on the other hand, can take those plus the SM61 and SM71
(faster SuperSPARCS), and various HS (HyperSPARC) modules, among others.
So an SS10 might have a higher top end processor potential.
I found a couple other good deals on other models recently. A bare
SS10, with 30 MHz SuperSPARC, no RAM, no HD, was $1600 (used, but probably
with a 3 month warranty), and an SS5 clone (Axil 245, w/85 MHz SuperSPARC)
with 96 megs RAM and 2 gig hard drive for $1800. It the SS5 clone didn't
top out at 192 megs of RAM total, that would be super deal for Grex! The
SS10 is worth some consideration...it's got some advantages, some
disadvantages over the 4/600, as described in #0. 64 meg SIMMs for it
are around $400, so we could get a 128 MB system for $2400.
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ajax
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response 8 of 58:
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Jan 1 10:26 UTC 1997 |
We're nearing when we should make a decision on what Sun to get.
Given the money pledged, I think the three likeliest options are:
a 4/600 with 128MB (around $1700), a 4/600 with 256MB (around $2500),
or a SS10/40 with 128MB (around $2500). The price is more certain
for an SS10; the 4/600 price hinges on getting a couple key bargains
which could evaporate at any moment, and staff approval that the
deal is sensible (it's a bit different than originally proposed).
I've also got a lead on a cheap 4/600 memory card, which might allow
a 192MB system for somewhere between the 128MB and 256MB prices.
Current pledges have resulted in $1416, plus $50 intended to add
a CD-ROM, plus $120 in membership pledges which board members may
or may not wish to consider as part of that total. If you combine
that with the previously approved $1100 expenditure for a Sun 4/400,
that would put us at $2516 for the computer, or $2636 if you count
membership pledges.
Advantages of SS10: small, lower power (saves $ over time), less
heat, ECC memory (4/600 uses parity memory), takes 16 or 64 meg SIMMs
in any quantity up to 8 (4/600 takes 1, 4, or 16 meg SIMMs in groups
of 16), more supported processor upgrades, Fast SCSI2 (10MB/s rather
than SCSI2's 5MB/s), and I'd guess more reliable.
Advantages of 4/600: cheaper (by around $800), can use ALM2 serial
card (which will reduce the time to get it online), can add a gig of
RAM on a memory expansion card (RAM on motherboards of both systems
limited to 512 megs), nearly theft-proof.
Similar for both: processor and bus performance, memory price.
-------
As a separate issue:
Buying a 4/600 motherboard and CPUs separately, which we may do,
raises the question of which processor module(s) to get: one SM100
($100), two SM100s ($200), or one SM41 ($250-$275). It's certainly
debatable, but I think a single SM41 would be fastest for Grex's
load, so that's what I used for the prices above. Also, would
using just one CPU (an SM41) avoid the need to rebuild the kernal
and some system utilities for the Sun4m architecture? That would
be another minor advantage, if we could put off that task until/unless
we added a second SM41.
Processor specs: SM100s have two 40MHz Ross RT605 SPARCs, each with
64k cache and 4096 hardware contexts. A 4/600 with one SM100 has a
SPECIntRate92 of 1043, or with two SM100s, 1847.
SM41s have one 40MHz TI SuperSPARC, with a 1MB (level 2?) cache,
20k instruction cache, 16k data cache, and 65536 hardware contexts.
No 4/600 stats available, but on an SS10, one SM41 has a
SPECIntRate92 of 1264, or with two SM41s, 2411.
Following SPECIntRate92 ratings, two SM100s outperform a single
SM41, but that doesn't factor in that that the 3rd and 4th CPUs
aren't utilized well with SunOS in an I/O-intensive environment.
(SunOS 4.x doesn't do symmetric multiprocessing like Solaris 2.x).
I think it also neglects the value of the SuperSPARC's higher
number of hardware contexts in a heavily loaded environment.
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ajax
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response 9 of 58:
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Jan 4 02:32 UTC 1997 |
An update on the Sun upgrade stuff: There's some mostly technical
discussion by e-mail, as some of the key discussion participants haven't
been in coop lately. If people are interested, I'll ask Marcus if he
minds my posting some of his mailings here.
The main tech question is which 4/600 to get. We could get 4/600
boards without a case for about $650 less, and try using an existing
case, but there's concern about combining components we buy from
different places, instead of buying a complete system. They should
theoretically work together, it is a bit riskier buying components.
An issue more of finances is how much memory to get right now,
given an $850ish difference between a 128MB and 256MB system. Since
the price for this type of memory fell 75% last year, I lean toward
getting a smaller amount now, and adding some more in a few months,
under the theory that it will be cheaper then. But the question
hasn't yet received much discussion.
The board and staff are going to try to meet sometime in the next
week to discuss this. Not much notice will be given, since it's not
even planned yet. But to secure a good deal, a decision should be
made soon.
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valerie
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response 10 of 58:
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Jan 4 06:19 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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janc
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response 11 of 58:
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Jan 4 17:32 UTC 1997 |
I would suggest (1) don't get the case right now. Try the 4/600 boards in
the 4/370 case we have. If they don't work, shop for a 4/600 case. (They
should work.) Even if they do work, we will likely want to keep looking for
a 4/600 case, since having a spare case is good. (2) we shouldn't buy much
more than 128MB memory now, but we should do it in a way so that we don't have
to discard the current memory to expand it further, if possible.
I'm not a big expert, but in general, I think it makes sense to avoid buying
stuff until we need it. All of this will only get cheaper.
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popcorn
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response 12 of 58:
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Jan 7 02:45 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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janc
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response 13 of 58:
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Jan 7 06:56 UTC 1997 |
On finding my place:
- This is the Traver Knoll Apartment complex, just off Plymouth Road on
Barton Drive.
- After you enter the driveway of the apartment complex, keep left at
the Y intersection and cross the little bridge over the stream.
- My apartment is at the far end of the second building you pass right
in front of.
- The buzzer only says "210" but the mailbox has both my name and apartment
number.
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n8nxf
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response 14 of 58:
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Jan 7 15:35 UTC 1997 |
You could also hang a sign inside the glass by the door, Jan.
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janc
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response 15 of 58:
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Jan 7 17:02 UTC 1997 |
I usually do. An AOL disk makes a good sign.
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valerie
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response 16 of 58:
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Jan 8 00:13 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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n8nxf
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response 17 of 58:
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Jan 8 20:38 UTC 1997 |
(Just don't ever say that to my wife; unless you like flame throwers ;)
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ajax
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response 18 of 58:
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Jan 11 05:55 UTC 1997 |
Update on purchasing progress for the 600MP stuff:
The 600MP motherboard and memory board were still available, and they
should arrive early next week. They're guaranteed against being DOA, but
the company's normal policy is that you tell them within ten days of
receipt if something's not working. If we're unable to test them within
that time, we could try asking for an extension.
The motherboard we're getting is part number 501-1686, the oldest version
of the 600MP. The memory board is 501-1901, which is a later generation
version of the 600MP memory board. I'm not sure they'll work together. At
some point, I think it's easiest to just try things. Calling other dealers
to see if they could beat the prices we're paying, one of them said they'd
*buy* them for that price, so we can easily unload either of these if we
need to. The mid-priced Sun dealers were asking $1250-$1750 for a 600MP
motherboard, and typically buy at about a third of their sell price.
I haven't yet gotten hold of the seller of the SM41 processor modules.
I think it's a one-person company. (The motherboard & memory are from
bigger outfits). There's only one source selling SM41s remotely this
cheaply ($250 each; next cheapest was $424, and I'm not sure that's still
available), so if this doesn't pan out, or if it's going to take more than
ten days, we may want to get a single SM100, for at least temporary testing
use, for $100. Two places have advertised them recently.
Memory prices from one of the bigger dealers dropped another dollar per
SIMM. They were $26 around the end of December, went to $25.50 around
Jan 2, $25 Jan 6, and just went to $24 yesterday. (This dealer typically
adds another $3 for genuine Sun SIMMs). I've talked to a number of dealers
who have been accumulating masses of the 4 meg 30-pin SIMMs lately (one just
got 300 more), but most are still charging at least $30 each for genuine
Sun SIMMs, and are unwilling to bargain much. My guess is that they will
sell them for a lot less, but not for another few months, when they find
that there's a greater supply than demand. I'm still following up with a
guy in Canton, MI, who may have genuine Sun SIMMs, which he'd sell for $20
each, but he needs to check in a storage area to see what he's got. They'd
be pulled from SPARC 2's, which use the same 501-1739 SIMM. Failing that,
if this sounds reasonable to people, I plan to order 64 megs from the
$24/SIMM dealer next week, and then a week or two before the system goes
live, order the other 64 megs, at hopefully lower prices.
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janc
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response 19 of 58:
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Jan 11 18:11 UTC 1997 |
This all sounds excellent. Thanks.
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ajax
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response 20 of 58:
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Jan 12 08:40 UTC 1997 |
Another quick update. The guy selling SM41s for $250 never received
them as he had expected this week, and he thinks they're not coming in.
I found an ad for two at $235 each from a month ago, and one for 20 at
$150 each from 4 months ago, and several at much higher prices. I'll
try the places with older ads, and a couple other places I haven't
called before.
Someone posted an ad this afternoon with six SM100s (revision 7) for
$40 each, and I'll try contacting him. If I can get one or two of
those, I'll go for it, so we'll have a fallback plan if we can't find
cheap SM41s. At that price, they're nice as backup CPUs in any case.
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janc
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response 21 of 58:
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Jan 12 18:53 UTC 1997 |
$40? Geez, buy a dozen, use them for coasters.
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janc
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response 22 of 58:
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Jan 12 18:54 UTC 1997 |
[coop item 31 linked to garage item 34]
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mdw
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response 23 of 58:
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Jan 12 23:41 UTC 1997 |
If I remember right, the earlier SM41's don't support multi-processing
right (some sort of bug in the cache interface). The later SM41's
should support multi-processing, but only with solaris, not with Sunos.
So, for the time being, the two configurations to consider are either a
single SM100 (dual processor) or a single SM41 (single processor)
running SunOS on the 6xx mp. I don't think we know enough yet about the
performance of the SM100 to know how it would rate on grex.
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ajax
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response 24 of 58:
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Jan 13 00:22 UTC 1997 |
That's good to know. If I can find cheap SM41s, I'll buy just one.
If we can get those $40 SM100s, we might want to do a comparison at
some point.
I was aware that SM40s came in two versions, some that do MP and
others that don't, but for some reason thought SM41s were all MP.
You're memory is probably correct, though. SM40s don't work in a
600MP, by the way, because in addition to lacking a cache, they also
lack their own timing.
Sun shipped some 600MPs with dual SM41s and SM51s, but I didn't know
about the OS restrictions. That was also with the later motherboard
(SM41s and SM51s didn't come out until after the original 600MP). Sun
also made dual-SM51 modules for 600MPs (SM520s and SM521s). I'll see
if I can find if any of the SuperSPARCs could do MP with SunOS.
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