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Grex > Coop9 > #16: Grex via the web: we gain, but do we lose? |  |
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remmers
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Grex via the web: we gain, but do we lose?
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Nov 23 18:20 UTC 1996 |
Okay, Grex conferences are now available via the World Wide Web,
thanks to Backtalk. So is newuser. Let's look at implications:
o Intuitive point and click interface. Perennial prob-
lems like getting your pager working right go away.
o Easier access by the masses. Since the major online
service providers have web browsers, the folks on
AOL, Prodigy, and CompuServe can all get here now.
o Oops, you can do conferences but not much else.
With a dialup or telnet connection you can move
easily from one Grex service to another with a
simple bang-command: !mail, !party, !tel, !vote,
!talk, etc. None of that works over the web.
Hmm, that third one might be a gotcha. Seems like a lot to give
up. Maybe a lot of Grex's unique virtual community has to do
with being able to move around from one form of communicating
to another: Read your mail, drop in on party for a bit, check
out a couple of conferences, !chat with a friend, check your
mail again, etc. There's a richness to that kind of environment
that the web doesn't offer.
What do you think? In moving to the web, are we losing a lot of
what makes Grex special?
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| 69 responses total. |
janc
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response 1 of 69:
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Nov 23 19:20 UTC 1996 |
I don't really believe we lose by adding alternatives. I'd like to see a web
interface to party, but that would be a modestly big project and one I'm not
going to get into right away. I'd be happy to do a web interface to vote.
That's a project that would only take a couple hours.
A web interface to tel would be in interesting project too.
But OK, in many ways I agree. The web is really an impoverished interface
in many ways.
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kerouac
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response 2 of 69:
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Nov 23 20:32 UTC 1996 |
I'd like to see Grex's webmasters come up with an easier way to set
up and maintain homepages through the web page. Incorporate a
novice level editor for people who dont know html, that would
translate the things they want on their page into the proper code.
And also a really good advanced editor for those who do know
html. People shouldnt have to run !lynx or telnet in to set up homepages.
The whole process should be automated so that a user can set up and put
up his/her homepage without even bothering the webmaster.
Homepages can be a good way of setting up and enhancing a community, but
users need to be encouraged to set up pages. There is no reason
setting up a page needs tobe difficult, but many people dont simply
because they are intimidated by either lack of HTML knowledge or lack
of clear, easy instructions.
I think grex's webpage needs to be revamped and a good place to start
now that backtalk is in place, is overhauling the users' homepages
section. Give the listing of user homepages a theme, push the
neighborhood concept the way other boards with user homepages do.
If Grex has a good environment for userhomepages, that will attract
many more users and more members.
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drew
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response 3 of 69:
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Nov 23 20:36 UTC 1996 |
We do, however, lose by overloading the system with all the load that web
surfers can put on the system by all trying to read the conferences at the
same time. I'm all for open access, but a CPU can only execute so many
instructions per second, after all. And a connection can only carry so many
bits.
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ajax
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response 4 of 69:
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Nov 23 21:11 UTC 1996 |
Re 2, There's a program called mkhomepage on Grex that creates a basic
web page, and explains a bit about HTML. I'd suggest creating another
item if you want to discuss user web pages.
Re 0, There's no doubt that you lose some capabilities using Backtalk
exclusively, but if some users prefer that interface, I see no problem
with it. Some people don't want real-time communications or e-mail on
Grex. If they do want those things, then they can switch to telnet.
If Backtalk usage swamps Picospan usage conferencing, it would cause
greater concern as to what impact it's having on our "community," but
there's been little sign of that happening so far.
Over time, we can theoretically move more programs over to a web
interface, strengthening the capabilities there. A CGI-based file
browser, to provide equivalent function to using "more" or "cat" to
display public files, would be quite trivial to write; the only potential
difficulty would be making sure file permissions were respected.
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mcpoz
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response 5 of 69:
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Nov 24 13:29 UTC 1996 |
I bought a book titled "HTML - Manual of Style. Clear, concise reference for
hypertext markup language" at the book warehouse on South State Street
near Frog Holler. They had several copies left for $7.95. They also had an
enormous amount of computer books for low prices. One table was $2.95 to
$3.95 for everything.
(The author is Larry Aronson, publ. by ZD Press, orig 19.95)
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jrh
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response 6 of 69:
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Nov 24 13:49 UTC 1996 |
A quick point, re 0: I don't know about Compuserve and Prodigy, but AOL
users are able to telnet to Grex, as I am doing now. Of course, I
suspect most of the masses are more familiar with the web than telnet.
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dadroc
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response 7 of 69:
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Nov 24 19:20 UTC 1996 |
Homepage editors abound. It would be a total waste to try to outdo Microsoft
or Compuserve or Correl by making a new homepage editor. Also, to have bunches
of homepages on grex is a waste of conference space. Look to your local
systems for hompages. You can include graphics and the latest Java hacks
without fear of a small link.
One of the problems here is the desire to do it all with a browser. Hay gang,
it is a funky interface that is not input friendly. Browsers are best for
viewing things. Grex in input intensive! You are not stuck with point and
click and add to some marketeers data base of your desires. Look around,
Grex does it all! Enjoy the tools, they made the net.
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rcurl
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response 8 of 69:
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Nov 25 06:08 UTC 1996 |
Its pretty hard to find things in _HTML - Manual of Style_, and it also omits
some fairly elementary markup elements. Still, I wrote my first page with
its help.
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bubu
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response 9 of 69:
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Nov 26 14:55 UTC 1996 |
I think the web interface is great.....These days it isn't much for me to
telnet in and find 30 users waitng to get online .....When I find this I just
click my backtalk link in my browser bookmark section and before ya know I
am grexing....of course it does take a bit longer, but hey i got a slow
connection...oh and is html really that difficult.....my 8 year old daughter
already understands what I have taught her....( she is getting her own web
page through school)
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draven
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response 10 of 69:
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Nov 26 15:26 UTC 1996 |
I generally use Netscape's "Creating Net SItes" section
(http://home.netscape.com/assist/net_sites/index.html) to look tags up.
Especially "A Beginner's Guide to HTML"
(http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimer.html).
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dpc
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response 11 of 69:
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Nov 29 18:12 UTC 1996 |
Hm. I don't feel a real need to use Backtalk to do mail or othe
non-conference activities. Actually, I only do conferencing and
mail here, and they're not at all related. Maybe I'm just a stick-
in-the-mud! 8-)
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srw
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response 12 of 69:
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Nov 29 20:10 UTC 1996 |
Backtalk does change the face of Grex (to those that use it). I think it makes
conferencing possible to those who would never come and join us otherwise.
It is true that there are many other features of Grex that are hidden to the
web-conferencing user.
This simply points out that Backtalk doesn't go far enough.
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tsty
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response 13 of 69:
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Nov 30 05:59 UTC 1996 |
trying to be every possible thing to every possible pern is to make
grex into too little to too many. grex has a wonderful niche on the
internet and needs to maintian that well earned standing.
backtalk, et al., are fine ways to get around - along with netscape,
ms explorer, and the slew of others. and they are similar while different.
grex seems to be moving in the direction of losing its identity.
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mta
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response 14 of 69:
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Dec 1 19:17 UTC 1996 |
I disagree, TS. I think that GREX can be available to the "point and click"
user and still keep its identity. The ideas behind GREx are about
inclusiveness, intellectual sharing and community.
Those ideas don't require a knowledge of cli. Honest.
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kerouac
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response 15 of 69:
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Dec 2 16:36 UTC 1996 |
The Web is the future. Unix boards are dinosaurs. For grex to survive
longterm, the point must be reached where it is essentially a
web service. There are too many other places sprouting up on the web
that already offer what grexoffers and does it faster. The young
folks that are the new users of today and tomorrow, will be spoiled
by all that, and will not have the patience for quaint little unix boards
and telnetting. Those of us who grew up as computer users with such
boards, are conditioned to be patient and accept lag and .etc
It is much easier to live through hot summers without air conditioning
ifyou've never had it or have been conditioned to not having it than if
you grew up with it and expect it. Grex is user supported and younger
users who have been conditioned to a higher standard, will not support
grex in the future unless it attempts to conform to those standards.
The web is the future. The new computer users and younger users who are
coming along want to point and click and use graphics. The numbers who
have the time or interest to telnet in, sit through a countdown que, and
wade through confs with net lag, is dwindling. Picospan is ancient.
Backtalk needs to be the main interface at some point. Otherwise, Grex is
going to become a haven for us old timers. I mean ther are people who
still use typewriters too, but not many under the age of thirty!
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scott
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response 16 of 69:
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Dec 2 16:58 UTC 1996 |
"For Grex to survive, it must..."
<sigh>
pass.
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robh
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response 17 of 69:
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Dec 2 18:03 UTC 1996 |
Richard, there's a wonderful section from the novel _Star Maker_
by Olaf Stapledon (the best science fiction writer you've never
heard of, IMHO) where one peaceful interstellar race, faced with
annihilation by an invading enemy, chooses to die with dignity
rather than turn their backs on what they believe in. They are
presented as being one of the most noble beings in the universe
because of this.
That's the only polite response I have.
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kerouac
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response 18 of 69:
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Dec 2 18:06 UTC 1996 |
but rob, isnt what grex IS and what grex is trying to accomplish
greater than the technology of the moment? You would rather
grex "die with dignity" as an old s tyle unix board than try to
change with the times?
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omni
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response 19 of 69:
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Dec 2 19:24 UTC 1996 |
I don't care if grex isn't the latest and the greatest. Leave that for
Prodigy or for AOL. I can say that I have learned a lot about unix and
computers from what I learned from grexing. If I want the web, I'll get a
PPP account from ICnet. Just because you can buy a Cadillac, doesn't mean
you cannot be happy with a Buick.
Grex will not die if I have anything to say about it.
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robh
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response 20 of 69:
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Dec 2 19:54 UTC 1996 |
I repeat, Richard, #17 is the only polite response I have.
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steve
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response 21 of 69:
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Dec 2 21:14 UTC 1996 |
Good item, John. I've been thinking about this as well. I don't
Grex will "lose" out by having a Web interface. Its an adjunct to
what we already have, not a replacement.
However, I have to agree with Richard in part about web interfaces
being the future. I agree that the future of the net is the web, or
whatever replaces it. Grex *needs* to offer that interface if we are
to get the masses of people interested in Grex. A long time ago we said
that we didn't want just computer-type people here, but folks from all
over. A web interface gets us a lot closer to that reality than ever
before.
But offering newer interface styles shouldn't mean that the older
ones must be dropped--character heads like me (and I daresay a lot of
the current Grex users) will never completely abandon this type of
interface. So we can have both, and think of adding new ones as they
come about.
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robh
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response 22 of 69:
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Dec 2 22:21 UTC 1996 |
I agree with #21. A Web interface is great, and interface for whatever
replaces the Web will be great, but that doesn't mean getting rid
of older forms of access.
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rcurl
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response 23 of 69:
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Dec 2 22:56 UTC 1996 |
I'm not sure I would have stayed around as long as I have if Picospan was
all Grex had. I learned a lot of other computer related skills, such as a
little (!) unix, and communication software and hardware. Those are also
not going to go away, as what else is the web but a glossy presentation of
the "same old" unix and communication technology? (It just becomes harder
to see the underpinnings, and to manipulate the environment yourself.) I
think Grex can move into web conferencing in place of Picospan, but I also
think it would be great if there was access to some of the internal
workings if one is interested. *Replacing* Picospan and a shell with only
Backtalk, would change the environment considerably.
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kerouac
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response 24 of 69:
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Dec 2 23:28 UTC 1996 |
"replaced" is the wrong word..."phased out" is more accurate...I read in
today's New YOrk Times that we are within three or four years of
having gigahertz processors and billion bit memories. Users are going
to want software that utilizes the efficiency of their hardware.
There will come a time when grex's interface and setup are SO
outdated that new users dont bother to stay around or become members.
Of course I realize that there are some older users here who are
resistant to any change that would transform grex too quickly, partiallly
because they view any big upswing in grex growth as a potential negative.
The old interfaces can be kept around but if GREx does not adapt to the new
interfaces and remains slow, antiquated and small, it will cease
expanding its user base.
(rob, be IMPOLITE if you have to, tell me what you REALLY think! SAll I'm
doing is expressing my opinion here)
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