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Grex > Coop8 > #84: LOCAL ONLY irc server VS. Party -ryan1 | |
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ryan1
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LOCAL ONLY irc server VS. Party -ryan1
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Jul 11 23:34 UTC 1996 |
Right now, I am aware that staff is currentgly working on many
projects, but I will suggest this this anyway. I thought it would be
pretty neat if there was a LOCAL ONLY IRC server installed. (i.e. a
server that can't be accessed unless you are using the irc client locally
from Grex.
I've talked with many other people in party about this, and they
thought it would be a good idea. Here are a few reasons I could think
of off hand:
* Many of the new users probably already have experience using
IRC before, and not the party program before, because the party
program is installed on only a small number of computers.
* If somebody is bothering you on IRC or being disruptive, you
can easily just use the /ignore command. However in party, you
need to set up a complicated filter using grep.
* In IRC there is _much_ more channel control. In IRC you can
ban users, have channel operators, and set different channel modes,
versus just closing a channel. This would be very useful if a user
joined party for the sole purpose of bothing others.
* With better channel control, users would be less likely to
complain to staff about the behavior of other users, which would
lead to more time for staff to handle other more important matters.
What does everybody else think? Am I saying party is not a good
program? Definelty not. But I am just saying, it may be better if there
was a choice to use IRC instead. If a LOCAL ONLY IRC server was
installed, I do not think it would slow down Grex that much, and it would
have little or no affect on the internet connection.
If nobody agrees with me, then simply laugh at this item :)
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| 91 responses total. |
jimj
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response 1 of 91:
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Jul 12 00:22 UTC 1996 |
it would be pretty cool to do this. Channel control _is_ much better on
IRC which would be helful for those users that like to join, hit capslock,
and swear and the like. I'm for it.
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krj
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response 2 of 91:
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Jul 12 02:13 UTC 1996 |
I think this sounds like a promising idea.
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janc
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response 3 of 91:
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Jul 12 03:09 UTC 1996 |
I'd have no objection. A lot of those features aren't in party partly because
I didn't see any reason to turn party into another IRC. I'm not sure how hard
or easy a local IRC would be to set up.
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espresso
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response 4 of 91:
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Jul 12 03:29 UTC 1996 |
I think it is a very good idea, it would be better than a irc server because
flooding would be harder, and war scripts couldn't easily be used with out
someone knowing, I say go for it
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pfv
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response 5 of 91:
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Jul 12 04:53 UTC 1996 |
This is a primo idea, and deserves serious consideration... While grep
and egrep, (and my own filter), all work to reduce the 'noise' of twits,
they are simply insufficeient in this new world of 60 plus users..
As I understand the RFC (see /var/tmp/pfv/RFC1459.wri), there should be
no problem in getting a server to run/stay local - the work seems to be
in networking servers and passing tons of data-packets...
There might be a need to redirect or mod certain server functions such as
that supporting /whois <name> and /ping <name>, but I've not seen any
server code to determine this... Janc? comments?
Sounds like a winner... Now, can we get it done? ;-)
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ryan1
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response 6 of 91:
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Jul 12 05:22 UTC 1996 |
RE: 5 -> no such file /var/tmp/pfv/RFC1459.wri
After seeing the behavior or one of the regular grex antagonists,
(j0ker666) in party, the other people in party also agreed with this idea.
I also just thought of another plus:
users in irc can be on multiple channels at the same time, without
taking up another pty, which would help conserve them if there are any grexers
who like to party in more than one window.
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pfv
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response 7 of 91:
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Jul 12 05:50 UTC 1996 |
awwww, shoot... it musta' died this afternoon after I uploaded it..
*sigh* well, Ican get it back up for those that want it - just need a
place other than my own directory to stash it ;-)
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amy
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response 8 of 91:
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Jul 12 08:51 UTC 1996 |
I support Ryan's idea 100%...after the disgusting display we got from joker666
this evening, it is obvious that a local only irc is the best solution
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kerouac
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response 9 of 91:
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Jul 12 16:37 UTC 1996 |
I think it would be boring if all party apps everywhere on the 'net were IRC
based. I *like* grex's party program...I like the noises and I think if we
had just a local IRC that it wouuld strengthen the arguments that STeve and
others make that we dont need party at all becauase it is not a conferenceand
does not contribute to the grex community. There are a *million* places to
IRC, and I dont think it adds anything to Grex to allow that as a local setup
here. Party on Grex should be distinctive TO grex so that it can be seen as
a special feature of the community.
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steve
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response 10 of 91:
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Jul 12 19:29 UTC 1996 |
I'm completely neutral on the issue of using IRC vs. party for local
real-time talking. Since I detest both Party and IRC it hardly matters
to me. ;-)
There is something that *does* disturb me however, and that is the
reason for making the switch, because of twits. That bothers me.
It also isn't going work.
Taking the solution of making a technical change to the system
for a social problem is partially effective, at best. I'm hearing
that IRC has better "twit control" mechanisms than party does. OK,
I'll buy that sight unseen--but it doesn't matter.
If we rely on more and more "filters" for problem people then the
party system (whatever it is) is going to more and more resemble a
cesspool; those in the know will be able to insulate themselves from
the chaff, but newcomers won't.
If the problem is getting worse and crud like joker666 are becoming
more common, using different software to muffle idiots won't fix the
real problem--that of the idiots.
Consider the new person on Grex, seeing a party system with worse
conversations going on: it will repell many, and invite those who like
such environments to stay on and add to the pollution. Those "in the
know" will be able to better deal with the problem types, but the problem
will still remain.
Moving to IRC for party like talking to get around social problems
simply isn't a good idea.
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ryan1
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response 11 of 91:
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Jul 12 20:09 UTC 1996 |
STeve, I disagree with you on the "cesspool" theory. In fact,
using an IRC interface may actually be better for newbies, because they
may have already had prior experience using IRC. Because the party
program is installed on very few computers, so if somebody has not been
exposed to party, or unix command such as "grep" they will have a harder
time ignoring the twits. In my opinion, it would be a lot easier for a
person to type this:
/ignore twit
than having to type this:
:set filter="grep -v 'twit:'" (or several different variations)
If we do not use software to block out the twits, then what do
you suggest we do? From what I have heard, if somebody complains to
staff about another user's actions, they receive a message back telling
them to try to ignore the twit. Isn't that what an IRC interface would
let you easily do? I know that staff is not extreamly willing to remove
accounts on the basis of behavior, and I understand that completely. If
staff starts doing that, then when do they draw the line? Would that
also make them responsible for the content posted by the other users?
One more point of interest: We could set up a #public channel
with no channel operators to avoid cliques, and so there would be a
general channel. (much like #party)
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rcurl
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response 12 of 91:
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Jul 12 21:19 UTC 1996 |
Every home needs a cesspool (or equivalent).
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tsty
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response 13 of 91:
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Jul 13 00:00 UTC 1996 |
having to type 'all that filter stuff' does rather force an offended
user to invest some thought/work before twit is filtered. not
an unworthy imposition, imo.
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steve
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response 14 of 91:
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Jul 13 00:34 UTC 1996 |
Ryan, I hope that people haven't always been told to just accept
"problem" people. Yes, at first thats what we do: ask people to ignore
the person and see what that does. Amazingly, it often works. But
for the idustrial strength twit, we do sometimes have to go after
them. We certainy have before.
As for IRC being known about by more people, that is partially
true, yes. However, the people I'm most concerned about are the folk
who don't know either model of chat- system at all.
Now, I don't know if we're having worse problems with twits in
party these days, or not. If we are, then I'd far rather deal with
that first.
Still, maybe it makes sense to make a local only IRC--I just
hope that it isn't done for the wrong reasons. I'm also curious
as to what the user community will do with the two programs. Will
there be two camps, the party folk and the IRC people?
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ryan1
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response 15 of 91:
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Jul 13 01:18 UTC 1996 |
Hmmm, I'm not really sure what the test of the regular Grex
chatters would do if they had a choice between party and IRC. I do know
that many of the people in party are in favor of it, but I am not sure
what the majority will think, and in this case, if most of the people
would use one of the chatting programs, then the other would quickly
die. Perhaps setting one up on a trial basis for a week would give the
chatters a little time to make a decision on which they prefer. I know
obtaining a server like this would not be hard. I know of a grex user
(rh@cyberspace.org) who has been working on, and has almost completed
patching an IRC server so it would be localhost only. If it is
completed, are there any objections to having it set up on a trial basis?
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krj
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response 16 of 91:
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Jul 13 01:26 UTC 1996 |
Ryan in #11 made my key point. IRC is a standard tool for real time
chat; now that it exists and is widely used and known, we should
consider migrating to it.
As for the party noises, IRC includes an equivalent of the /emote
noise on M-net.
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kerouac
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response 17 of 91:
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Jul 13 01:47 UTC 1996 |
The arguments against changing partyprogs to provide better "twit control"
are the same tobe against .yes/.no writes. These things solve symptoms,
they do NOT solve the problems. Too often in this day and age, people react
to societal problems by isolating themselves more, by moving further
out into the suburbs. By doing everything in one's poer to pretend that
these problems dont exsist. Changing and improving software doesnt get rid
of twits. It just makes the twits work harder and gives them MORE
incentive to be twits. You solve problems by confronting them,
not by ignoring them and finding ways to invoke false realities.
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giry
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response 18 of 91:
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Jul 13 02:36 UTC 1996 |
I for one, would never use the IRC if party were still available. I have only
ventured into IRC once and was thourougly confused. I just recently got my
own channel in party and excited about it. Twits like j0ker666 are a problem,
we have tried everything with this guy, I wrote to popcorn and she said she
would do what she could, and that was enough for me. I like party, I wouldn't
want to see it disappear completly.
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ryan1
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response 19 of 91:
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Jul 13 02:43 UTC 1996 |
Richard, I totally disagree with you. When a user puts on their
caps lock, joins party, and raises hell for no peticular reason, they ARE
the problem. I do not think anybody cares if they are "isolated" from
somebody like j0ker666. Usually if a twit knows that they are being
ignored by the other people, they will leave, thus solving the problem.
If you ignore somebody, the problem no longer exists. Being ignored does
not give twits more incentive, it bores them, and then tend to leave
after a while. There is absolutely no way to confront somebody like
j0ker666. If you were in party at the same time he/she was, you'd know
what I am talking about.
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giry
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response 20 of 91:
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Jul 13 03:24 UTC 1996 |
J0ker666 is a major problem in party, it would be nice if the filter
command were a bit easier to figure out, I have offered my "knowledge" of the
filter command to others. My main concern with twits like those is that people
who have never used grex or party come in and see this guy swearing his head
off, attacking everyone, that is not the type of thing that I woudl like to
project to new users. I still wouldnt' use IRC though, I woudl just love to
see a simpeler filter program.
That will raise the same objections as the yeswrite nowrite program,
but I extend the offer for anyone to go and read the party log from last night
and tell me that is what they want to portray in party.
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draven
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response 21 of 91:
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Jul 13 03:41 UTC 1996 |
"IRC is a standard tool for real time chat"
I must admit, this argument concerns me a bit. Is this what we want
Grex to be? Just like every other site on the Internet? I don't. I
like picospan, party, telegrams, menu, and the many other things that
make Grex unique.
Face it: Grex is just a slow moving speck on the face of the Internet.
I don't think any of us would still be here, or ever come here, if Grex
were just another Internet site.
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srw
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response 22 of 91:
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Jul 13 05:49 UTC 1996 |
I don't have a strong feeling about IRC vs party as I don't spend enough time
in party to have formed an opinion. Nevertheless, I am absolutely convinced
that Ryan is right about how twits behave when filtered. Furthermore, I have
encountered numerous people who can't figure out how to filter in party.
I don't see anything heinous about wanting to filter, and I think it would
be a fine idea to make such actions as easy to use as possible.
Make the computer serve the humans, not vice versa.
I side with Ryan on this, and would like to see this experiment given
a chance.
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selena
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response 23 of 91:
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Jul 13 06:15 UTC 1996 |
I do, Leave IRC out of it. PERIOD. Party is part of why I come here,
and why I don't use nether.net's IRC much- I hate IRC.
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scg
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response 24 of 91:
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Jul 13 06:39 UTC 1996 |
I guess I prefer party, for many of the same reasons Colleen gave in #18.
Mainly, it's what I'm used to. I've only tried IRC once, and I think I got
confused, gave up, and went back to party, since IRC didn't really have me
excited enough for me to want to figure it out. Then again, I probably would
have given up on party and gone back to write and chat, if there hadn't been
some people I really wanted to talk to in party the first time I used it.
But, even though I'm not in the least excited about the idea of a local IRC
server, I can't think of a rational reason to be against it. I have no
objection to this, if somebody wants to spend the time to set it up.
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