Do Grexers have the right to know - vedagiri

Aug 2 06:21 UTC 1996

There was an item in the garage conf. which asked 
"Can i know when someone fingers me ?". Implementation details aside, how many
people think that Grexers have *the right to know*. There were reasons like
this feature turning into a resource drain. As a user on a public system I
really would like to know if someone is interested in me. Is that a fair
statement ? If there are like minded people, please join me. All antagonists
to this idea, please try to explain why i am not entitled to *know* who is
interested in me.
Thanks.

response 2 of 88:

Aug 2 11:04 UTC 1996

finger is a tool, and it can be used and it can be abused.  I recall some of
the discussion in garage had to do with "finger logging" so that people could
get a list of who had fingered them.  I'm not sure how well that would work
from a system standpoint.

I do think finger is an important command to have.  It is used properly 99%
(or better) of the time, and you don't have to have a readable .plan or even
your real name on the passwd file data.

response 4 of 88:

Aug 2 13:04 UTC 1996

Technical aspects aside, I think it's quite fair that anyone
here should know who has been fingering them.

Of course, those technical aspects are real doozies.  F'r instance,
how can you tell is someone has run "more /u/robh/.plan" instead of
"finger robh"?  They just got most of my info, and the finger
command wasn't even used.  (Oh dear!)

response 6 of 88:

Aug 2 18:40 UTC 1996

wonder how teh fibbies would 'like' it that their fingers are being watched?
  
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, now that you mention it ......

response 8 of 88:

Aug 2 22:39 UTC 1996

I'm curious.  
(1) *Why* do people wnat to know who's fingering them?  Abuse aside, is it
just conceit?  If people finger me, fine./  If they don't, that's fine too.
It's their business, not mine.  I *have* wondered if people are fingering me,
and in those time of wondering, I realized the reason I wanted to know was
because I wanted to know all those people cared about me.  Feh.

(2) Abuse:  How *does* one abuse finger?  If you don't want the information
generally avalable, don't put it in the plan.  If you do, then why would you
not want someone reading it?  An enemy, I suppose, but if you have enemies
and don't want them getting certain information, well, take it out of your
plan and put it in some other file that you only tell your friends about. 
Maybe the Feds are reading your plan... again, whatever you don't want known,
don't put in your plan.

Sure, you have the right (or shouldhave the right) to know who's fingering
you.  Now, someone please give me a legitimate non-egotistical reason why you
would *want* to.

response 10 of 88:

Aug 3 03:47 UTC 1996

I agree with Mary about that. I don't believe that the log files for finger,
or httpd or similar log files should be perused by the public. I think it is
invasion of privacy.

However, be warned. Most finger, gopher and http transactions are logged on
the server. You really have no control over what the server administrators
do with that logged information. If you don't want to be logged, don't use
the internet.

response 12 of 88:

Aug 3 13:35 UTC 1996

You want a contract that meets all your needs and doesn't address others'
needs for privacy.  If you want to expand your circle of friends, say so
in your .plan by asking people to write you.  Don't trap them into leaving
a trail for you to follow.

I never use finger to increase *my* circle of friends.  Mostly, I use it
to see what someone has said about themselves, to kind of augment
information I've picked up in the conferences.  If I wanted to strike up a
mail conversation I'll send mail.  The log use you propose is almost a
type of entrapment - are you that desperate for friends?

response 14 of 88:

Aug 3 19:05 UTC 1996

Yeppers..

        besides being an infringement, waste of resources & time, it's
        just a egocentric concept.

        Shorten the plan to a screen and request email, I'm sure you'll
        get loads of proposa- er, email..

response 16 of 88:

Aug 3 21:00 UTC 1996

I personally only !finger people when I want to find out if they've logged
on or not during a certain day or if they've read email.  If there would
be a way to access that information in a formatted way, that would be cool.

i.e.

 !check kerouac

Checking login id Kerouac

1. Check last time logged on?
   (Kerouac was last logged on at.......)
   (Kerouac is currently logged on and is in bbs)

2. Check E-mail status?

3. Check for alternate E-mail addresses?

4. Read this user's .plan?
      
5. Check which conferences this users belong to?
   (Sorry, Kerouac wants his .cflist kept confidential)

6. List files in this user's home directory?
   (Sorry, Kerouac's home directory is restricted right now)

7. Talk to this user
   (Kerouac is not accepting messages right now, send e-mail?)
     
Such a program could incorporate the desires of #0 to know who is !fingering
you as well, by having a feature where a user can decide which information he
wants !check to give out.

i.e. 

8. List the !check log for this user:
   (Login Kerouac was checked by:      ) .etc


This type of program could effectively replace !finger and present the info in
a more organized manner, and allow users more control over which information
others may access.

     

response 18 of 88:

Aug 3 23:00 UTC 1996

Hmmmm... o.k., V V, so, let's say it's been two years since user Gollygee has
been online.  Well, Gollygee was just my best friend online in the world, and
one day he just stopped logging on.  Hmmm.... oh well.  Well, today I log on
and, well, what do you know but if there isn't a user named Gollygee.  I
finger him... er, oops, it's a her and not at all like Gollygee... a
completely different user.  Except now Gollygee knows that I've fingered her,
and she can follow me around like a lost puppy (at least until Remmers gets
that .nowrite file going and I can block her attentions).

That's one scenario.  There are plenty of scenarios in which I would be
fingering someone for reasons other than "Hey, this person's handle sounds
cool, I want to be their friend."  And if someone *does* want to be my friend,
based on my plan, I assume they'll write me or comment on it in Party.  Many
people do.  

The purpose of the plan (one of them, at any rate), is to say, "Hey, hi, this
is who I am and what I'm like, if you think I'm groovy, why don't you talk
to me?"  If someone reads your plan and, having done so, doesn't contact you,
it's reasonable to assume that *ahem* they're not interested in being your
friend.

(Side note:  While T. L. Jones doesn't know we've watched him in Batman
Forever, Jim Carrey does... he sucked our brains out while we watched it,
reemmber?  =} )

response 20 of 88:

Aug 4 00:18 UTC 1996

re: #16...Ifyou think my idea in #15 is moronic you must
think the !finger
program itself is moronic, because all I'm suggesting is re-organizing the
info you get through that so it can be controlled better.  

I think I suggested that users could control most of the options in a
!check program.  They could even theoretically control whether someone
could read the log of those who have read their .plan?  As long as such
controls are added, my idea makes sense because it would let users access
only the specific information they want without havnig to call up the
whole .plan.  If I just want to know if someone has read their email, I
dont need to know when they were on last and Idont need to see their plan
or anything.

I think there is nothing wrong with users being allowed to know who has
accessed their files or read their .plan.  If that information is going to
cause someone to have a complex about it (as Brighn suggested), Idont
think it matters.  

Grex shouldnt be responsible for the relationship problems of its users.
Whether such information might be upsetting to one or two users is
irrelevant to the issue of whether such information should be accessible.
The only issue should be whether it is right for users to see that
information, and I am of the opinion that all information here that doesnt
breach security protocols should be accessible as a rule.  

Not making such information accesible would be editorializing by staff,
basicall staff telling users what is right for them to see and what isnt.
Users should absolutely be able to see who has !fingered them.  

response 22 of 88:

Aug 4 00:59 UTC 1996

Janc is more polite and precise, and the offer is still open...

_you_ want a better 'finger? Write it and convince the staff to install
it, or _try_ to write it such that staff doesn't _need_ to install it..

Feel free, the compilers are here...

response 24 of 88:

Aug 4 05:43 UTC 1996

   I've always thought that the .plan file itself was a very
reasonable form of control over how people used finger on you.
If you don't include information, then nothing useful is given
to the fingerer.

   As rob H pointed out, there is really no way to prevent (or
record the fact of) someone cat-ing out someones .plan file.
Obvioulsy this only appies to local users, but still, thats a
good reason right there to not bother with collecting more
detailed finger information.