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Grex > Coop13 > #4: brainstorming solutions for the full disk problem |  |
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valerie
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brainstorming solutions for the full disk problem
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Mar 1 04:28 UTC 2001 |
This item has been erased.
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| 203 responses total. |
keesan
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response 1 of 203:
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Mar 1 04:48 UTC 2001 |
I vote for number 3, but allow people to download the files, not just read
or delete them. I sometimes fetch files up to 1 or even 1.5M and occasionally
forget to delete them immediately after downloading, or even forget to
download. I thought the size of file, rather than the type, was what you were
after (no on 4). No on banning ftp - I thought only paid members to could
ftp files to grex anyway.
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valerie
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response 2 of 203:
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Mar 1 04:58 UTC 2001 |
This response has been erased.
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carson
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response 3 of 203:
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Mar 1 06:20 UTC 2001 |
(I'd like to see a combo of #3 and the present system. the way I see it,
if such a program as described in suggestion #3 ran once or twice a day,
(at least), that would relieve some of the burden on staff. give the
user about a week or so to correct the problem before going in manually,
if necessary.)
(is there an upper limit on the size of files that can be FTP'd/emailed
to Grex? having that might deter someone from transferring a large
file, as it would have to be broken into pieces first.)
(also, I seem to remember a "bad neighbor" list of the top 20 or so
disk users. did that become more trouble than it was worth?)
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scg
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response 4 of 203:
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Mar 1 06:26 UTC 2001 |
I haven't been directly involved in the disk problem, but I'm guessing the
"bad neighbor" list is one of those ideas that doesn't scale well. When Grex
was a small system, where most users participated in the conferences or in
party, or had friends who did, showing up on such a list was presumably a
motivation to do something about it. With a system the size Grex is today,
with many of the disk hogs "just passing through," and not knowing what Grex
is or anything about anybody else who uses or runs it, I'm guessing such a
list would have much less of an effect.
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carson
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response 5 of 203:
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Mar 1 07:42 UTC 2001 |
(that was my hunch. still, it was always good to have a scale of the
problem, which is something that is readily obvious to staffers, but not
so apparent to the rest of us until we can't read conferences.) ;)
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krj
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response 6 of 203:
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Mar 1 15:07 UTC 2001 |
Could a file limit size be set on FTP which would be sufficient for
people to upload "reasonable things" but which would block most
software packages and binary files? Could exceptions to that file limit
size be given by staff upon application?
If you were worried about people mailing the stuff to Grex, you'd have
to put a similar size limit on mail files.
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keesan
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response 7 of 203:
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Mar 2 02:00 UTC 2001 |
What is wrong with a small binary file? I use grex to fetch and download and
upload binary files all the time - wordperfect/DOS, small DOS programs, an
occasional picture of someone's kids that arrives in e-mail. Why is the
nature of the file important rather than the size of it? Why are 100 pages
of text acceptable but 10K of binary file not?
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remmers
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response 8 of 203:
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Mar 2 02:50 UTC 2001 |
There isn't anything wrong with small binary files that just pass
through Grex once on the way to somewhere else.
People aren't supposed to make image files web-accessible, but
that's a separate issue. Once they're web-accessible, they pass
through Grex's internet link every time somebody accesses the
person web page.
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keesan
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response 9 of 203:
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Mar 2 03:56 UTC 2001 |
Not if they are linked to the main page (you have to select them to see them).
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mdw
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response 10 of 203:
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Mar 2 07:55 UTC 2001 |
How does the web server know that? How do we enforce this with a
minimum of staff time?
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keesan
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response 11 of 203:
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Mar 2 19:21 UTC 2001 |
How is it any different what sort of file you have on your home page, whether
a 100K text file or a 100K image file? Set a size limit, not an arbitrary
statement that images are bad and other things are good. (I am about to help
grex out by cutting up my 15K website into smaller pieces, only one of which
will load at a time with links to the others.) Do you want to set some limit
on the total bytes allowed in the www directory?
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scott
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response 12 of 203:
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Mar 2 19:56 UTC 2001 |
People tend to create cluelessly huge websites because of graphics, not text.
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keesan
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response 13 of 203:
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Mar 2 22:25 UTC 2001 |
So write a program that detects huge websites. I see nothing wrong with
having a couple of small graphics files linked from a home page that is also
small, the whole totalling less than many text only pages. Or make up some
rule about the maximum size of a home page (index.htm(l)) and find a way to
enforce that.
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gull
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response 14 of 203:
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Mar 3 03:49 UTC 2001 |
Re #6: There *is* a limit on the size of incoming mail files. I've had
a few digests of an email list I'm on bounced because they were over the
limit.
I think a limit on the size of incoming FTP files would be reasonable,
and would slow down some of the people trying to bring in eggdrop. I
occasionally FTP things here that I need to mail (resumes, mostly) but
they're all well under 200K.
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keesan
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response 15 of 203:
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Mar 3 04:03 UTC 2001 |
I have used grex (and am currently using mnet) to get files up to 2M, that
I fetch with ftp andthen download with ymodem or kermit. I would find this
sort of restriction a real pain, and it would encoruage me not to be a member
since I would then have to pay an ISP for the priviliege to use FTP to get
files. I try not to do this during peak times such as 4 pm or 8 pm or
midnight. Just occasionally issuing warnings to people who are over the limit
significantly (1M plus email) should be adequate, I think. It wokrked for
me when
I forgot to empty old files out (I just deleted about a third of what I had
to
get down to 700K, smoe of which is binary files). I have two small image
files that are smaller than my text-only website, which I email to people,
and would object strongly if there were a ban on binary files being received,
sent or stored. I also have a small DOS program and sometimes have others.
They are not causing anybody any problems. Can some program be written that
will recognize
eggdrop and other common banned programs and delete them?
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gull
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response 16 of 203:
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Mar 3 05:36 UTC 2001 |
What if the restriction on FTPing large files was only on non-members?
Members are unlikely to fill up the disk anyway, since they're aware of
the problem.
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pfv
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response 17 of 203:
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Mar 3 20:30 UTC 2001 |
To one subset of users:
I have not spoken to Val about this recently, this is her own spin.
I *did* email Anne a week before this item - it's getting silly.
To another subset of users (Keesan and her clones):
Sending your junk to grex to move elsewhere, via ftp one way and
*modem another is just plain stupid - which comes as absolutely no
suprise. The same is true for attachments to email.
The following is a _SIMPLE_ example of a dolt:
==================
genius : units
==================
3:11pm up 12 days, 23:41, 41 users, load average: 2.59, 2.20, 2.04
User tty login@ idle JCPU PCPU what
genius ttys4 12:54pm 5:55 13 pico.real -z psybnc.conf
------------------
total 11
drwxr-xr-x 3 genius units 512 Mar 3 14:17 .
drwxr-xr-x 67 root wheel 2560 Mar 3 08:03 ..
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 778 Mar 3 08:03 .cfonce
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 664 Mar 3 08:03 .cshrc
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 725 Mar 3 08:03 .login
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 1245 Mar 3 08:03 .mailrc
-rw------- 1 genius units 232 Mar 3 08:03 .plan
drwxr-xr-x 4 genius units 512 Mar 3 14:20 prv
-rw------- 1 root daemon 0 Mar 3 09:20 root-deleted-your-bnc
------------------
total 1172
drwxr-xr-x 4 genius units 512 Mar 3 14:20 .
drwxr-xr-x 3 genius units 512 Mar 3 14:17 ..
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 194560 Mar 3 12:37 bnc.tar
drwxr-xr-x 2 genius units 1024 Mar 3 13:50 bnc2.8.2
-rw-r--r-- 1 genius units 983040 Mar 3 14:18 psyBNC2.2.1.tar
drwxr-xr-x 9 genius units 512 Mar 3 15:06 psybnc
==================
This clown has HAD a warning, and persists. Why persist in trying to be
polite?
Further, this clown is not a bbs-user, or a party-contributor.. Why would
Grex wait even a MOMENT before smearing it into sludge?
It's not a contributing guest; it's not a member: It's a twit.. Staff has to
deal with these in ungodly numbers, (as I ain't a staffer, I can't define it
further - ask them).
Another point: some deviates actually scream for "more disks and space" - as
though this is a solution. The lack of space is a symptom.
A final point I'll make, and then I'll let you "folks" deal: certain
"gentle-folk" want a higly parameterized solution.. They actually demand
software. Wonderful, software is a Good Thing (tm) - Who is to write it?
When? To do what? How long will it take? (occasionally, folks try to suggest
*I* write a solution - umm, yeah.. right: staff wants me like Bubonic Plague
- I am (and remain) Politically Incorrect.
Val has specified a problem. This problem is both technical, (meaning
solvable), and political, (meaning you better grasp Reality with both
hands). She's asked for SOLUTIONS - not "votes" and not parameters.. She's
OFFERED some possibilities - which means she expects YOU GUYS to discuss
them.
She's already mentioned Quota will not work.. And, to date, not one user to
include scg has, in party, made a goddamned bit of sense.
You have a MAJOR PROBLEM - no, it is NOT trivial when shit locks up or dumps
users.. Time to think it over.
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gull
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response 18 of 203:
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Mar 3 20:51 UTC 2001 |
Re #17: How is using Grex to email my resumes "stupid"? It's the only
really stable email account I've got.
You've done a great job pointing out the problem. Where's your
suggestion for fixing it?
Here's a suggestion that I suspect will be unpopular: Assign one disk
for paying members, assign another for non-members. Run a script that
deletes all files that are larger than a set size on the non-member
disk, regardless of content. Alternatively, just delete the home
directory of any non-member that's over a certain size.
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pfv
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response 19 of 203:
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Mar 3 21:04 UTC 2001 |
re 18:
Are you a member? FTP, like email and lynx (aka web ftp) is a
privelege. Far be it from me to define "membership".
If grex is the "only really stable email.." then it's time to think
about membership, to my mind..
Solutions:
I'm noty a root, and almost anything I mention immediately gets
beaten to death by grexies.. At this stage, it's better I do NOT
point out solutions.
Your idea:
yeah, but the drive itself means little - would work as of now.. I
suspect the crazies will jump all over the idea, in any event.
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gull
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response 20 of 203:
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Mar 4 00:20 UTC 2001 |
Re #19: I think, though, that if you're going to lambast people for not
doing anything, the onus is on you to show how they could do something.
If you can't think of any solutions, it's hardly fair to criticize
others for not coming up with any.
No, I'm not currently a member. If Grex decided to ban incoming FTP and
email attachments altogether, than I wouldn't have any use for the place
and I'd have no reason to become one, either. As it is, I've been
planning on it as soon as I get money ahead. Currently I'm in the
middle of a not particularly successful job hunt.
And yes, the idea would work whether or not the two were on seperate
drives. Moving members to a seperate drive (or just a seperate
partition) would, however, make the script easier to write, and would
also prevent members from being inconvenienced if some vandal fills up
the non-member drive.
I think if I *were* a member I'd hesitate more to suggest this. As it
is, I'm not really calling for any special privilage for *myself*.
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keesan
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response 21 of 203:
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Mar 4 03:15 UTC 2001 |
Re 17, I do not 'send my junk to grex', I download files from other places
so that I can then transfer them (via Kermit) to my own computer and use them
there. They are not much good to me on someone else's computer. I receive
attachment in my email because people send them to me - what is so stupid
about letting people send me email? I think you have some assumption that
is not correct. I can also get 1M files without ftp, by regular download from
a website. I try to remember to delete them as soon as I have downloaded them
to my own computer. I much prefer pine and lynx to Netscape. I also send
attachments to people, some of whom are grex members, and these attachments
are binary files, and they spend some time in my home directory. And I store
some files there, some of which are binary, so that I can access them from
various phone numbers. I think the biggest files I have are text files.
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aruba
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response 22 of 203:
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Mar 4 03:25 UTC 2001 |
It's not really practical to put members' directoies on one disk and
nonmembers' on another, because people move on and off the membership list.
We'd have to move their directories whenever that happened, which seems like
a lot of trouble.
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mdw
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response 23 of 203:
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Mar 5 02:40 UTC 2001 |
Creating a separate "members" disk also creates a feeling of "I paid for
it, so I deserve better treatment" rather than "I donated for the good
of grex", which means members end up feeling little responsibility to
improve the lot of non-members, which in the long run reduces the amount
of new blood.
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aruba
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response 24 of 203:
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Mar 5 16:39 UTC 2001 |
Right, that's been Grex's general philosophy about member perks since the
beginning.
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