A Proposal to Clarify Grex's Stance on Deleting Items

Feb 8 23:23 UTC 2004

From all the discussion to date, I think we're approaching a consensus that
items should be removed from conferences only in very obvious circumstances,
such as those involving illegal behaviour.  I'd like to see that consensus
consolidated and clarified.  Therefore, I am making yet another proposal
on the subject.

I am looking for a single vote, yes or no, that will settle the question
until someone brings it up again.

    Resolved:   An item's author, the person who entered the
                item in a conference, shall have the authority
                to remove that item from the original conference
                and any conferences to which it has been linked.
                If the software installed on grex does not give
                the author sufficient capability, the author may
                seek assistance from staff and fairwitnesses.

   If the above resolution fails, the following paragraph will be adopted
   as a member resolution:

        An item's author may remove an item at any time before a
        response has been made to it.  After a response has been
        made, an item may be removed only if it poses a clear and
        present danger to the system or it clearly abets criminal
        activity.  Examples of the former include a very large item
        that fills all available disk space, an item that is posted
        more than once or in several conferences at once and items
        that contain terminal escape sequences.  Examples of the
        latter include items that contain social security numbers
        or credit card numbers.

response 2 of 235:

Feb 8 23:31 UTC 2004

I don't like eother of those options, Joe.  So I wouldn't know which way to
vote on your proposal.

response 4 of 235:

Feb 8 23:44 UTC 2004

Because those aren't opposites, it's silly to pretend they are.

response 6 of 235:

Feb 9 00:16 UTC 2004

I would rather see the second paragraph offered, alone, as a resolution.

response 10 of 235:

Feb 9 00:48 UTC 2004

I agree with resp:8.  If you bring the second proposal to a vote, I'll 
vote for it.  I think trying to make it an either/or or trying to run 
two proposals in parallel needlessly complicates things.

If you do put your second proposal up for a vote, I'm going to withdraw 
my proposal.  Yours accomplishes the same thing.

response 12 of 235:

Feb 9 01:06 UTC 2004

So the current text of the proposal is:

        An item's author, the person who originally enters an item,
        may remove that item at any time before a response has been
        made to it.  After a response has been made, an item may be
        removed only if it poses a clear and present danger to the
        system or it clearly abets criminal activity.  Examples of
        the former include a very large item that fills all available
        disk space, an item that is posted more than once or in
        several conferences at once and items that contain terminal
        escape sequences.  Examples of the latter include items
        that contain social security numbers or credit card numbers.

I note that staff has edited responses that contain control sequences in
the past.  I do not think this proposal affects that practice, but I also
think adding 'responses' to it is unnecessary clutter, and thus confuses
the issue.

response 14 of 235:

Feb 9 01:34 UTC 2004

If you can find a member to enter such a non-sensical prooposal, sure.

response 16 of 235:

Feb 9 02:52 UTC 2004

UYEAH!

response 18 of 235:

Feb 9 06:08 UTC 2004

 A proposed modification:

      The Grex user who originally enters an item in the Grex   
      conferences may remove that item at any time before a
      response has been made to it from any other user account.
      After any other user account enters a response, any or all 
      text of an item may be removed by a fairwitness or staff only 
      if two or more members of the board or staff determine either 
      that the text to be removed represents an abuse of Grex
      system resources or that failure to remove such text might
      abet criminal activity or reasonably expose Grex to legal 
      liability of either civil or criminal nature.

response 20 of 235:

Feb 9 13:01 UTC 2004

I feel slightly uncomfortable with this because, as fairwitness, I can see
wanting to remove something quickly, before I can get concurrence from someone
else.

For example suppose someone enters an item, then responds to it with a second
login ID.  I have no way of knowing that this is really just one person, but
might still feel urgency to get information off Grex, such as a social
security number or credit card number.  Under this amendment, I'd have to wait
for someone else before I could do anything about it, even if the owner of
the number asked me to remove it.  

Is there some way to word this so that I could act, but the item could be
"saved" pending review by a board or staff member?

response 22 of 235:

Feb 9 15:11 UTC 2004

It was beautiful and fuzzy.

response 24 of 235:

Feb 9 18:23 UTC 2004

Since staff have at least as much power in individual conferences as
the fair witness, it really isn't worthwhile to try to prevent them,
individually and specifically, from using that power.  It is much better
to establish the guidelines and expect _everyone_ to adhere to them.

Yes, it would be _possible_ to word the proposal to require preserving the
removed item pending final approval, but I consider that an implementation
issue better left until after the basic policy is decided.

I don't like other's suggestion partly because of semantics:  anyone
can use the 'scribble' command on text they have entered at any time.
That the text in question is the text of an item is not relevant.

Similarly with jp2's suggestion, it is both an implementation detail
and also a matter of semantics.  This proposal concerns itself primarily
with entire items, which contain the text of several authors.  It really
doesn't address single responses, which would, in my view, continue to
be handled as they always were.

Let us consider a couple of concrete examples.

1)  Someone creates an item that says, "List any credit card numbers you
have found here.  Here's my contribution 1234xxxxyyyyzzzz".  The first
response is a comment that the activity is illegal and a request that
the item be  removed.  At that point, the item author can scribble the text
but not remove the item.  The second response is a list of credit card
numbers.  The third response is a request for removal.  

Under my proposal, the entire item can be removed, by the fair witness or
staff.

2)  Someone makes a response to the "happy" item that contains a credit
card number.

The treatment of this response is not controlled by my proposal, so it
would be handled as it always has been: the single response will be edited
or removed.

3)  Someone enters several items with the exact same text.  Someone else
follows right behind, making the first response a request to remove
the item.  At that point, the item author can scribble the text but not
remove the item.

Under my proposal, the repeated items can be removed, by the fair witness
or staff.

Note that my proposal really does not distinguish who makes the first
reponse.  Even if the item author makes the first response, my proposal
would control.