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Grex > Coop12 > #35: Applying for exemption from Personal Property Tax | |
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aruba
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Applying for exemption from Personal Property Tax
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Jul 19 17:27 UTC 2001 |
Colleen McGee and I met with the Ann Arbor City Assessor, Durk Ashley,
today. Our goal was to gather information to help decide if Grex
should apply for exemption from the City's personal property tax, and
get an idea of what Mr. Ashley looks for on an application when he
decides whether to grant exemption.
Mr. Ashley was very polite to us and we talked for a good half an
hour. The main points I gleaned from the meeting are these:
1. The personal property tax law is a state law, administered by the
City. The State tries to keep the rules for exemptions uniform across
the State. The main criterion for granting exemption is that an
institution must relieve the government of some burden.
2. Mr. Ashley tries never to make new policy. If he gets an
application from an organization which is unlike any that has been
granted exemption before (according the books he has on hand, which
have records of all the exemption cases around the State), he always
denies the application.
3. If an application is denied, the applier can appeal the decision to
the City's Board of Review, which is three people appointed by the City
Council who meet three times a year, but only once a year (in March) do
they consider exemptions.
4. If the Board of Review turns down the application, the applier can
appeal to the Michigan Tax Tribunal. It's they who have the authority
to make new policy (for the whole state). Cases before the Tribunal
are usually argued by lawyers.
5. Mr. Ashley said he would certainly look over our whole application,
but that he doesn't believe an institution like Grex has ever been
granted exemption before, so he would very likely deny our application
for exemption. That means we would probably have to go at least as far
as the Tribunal to get a decision in our favor.
Colleen and I tried what we thought were our best arguments on Mr.
Ashley. First we pointed out that Grex provides internet access to all
people in Ann Arbor, 24 hours a day, which is similar to what the
District Library does, only more comprehensive (timewise). Mr. Ashley
found it dubious that duplicating what the library does was relieving
the government of a burden. Libraries themselves are exempt, though,
so Colleen tried arguing that Grex's conferencing system is in fact a
library, since it is searchable and contains a wealth of knowledge.
Mr. Ashley didn't think that we could really call it a library, though.
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| 24 responses total. |
aruba
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response 1 of 24:
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Jul 19 17:36 UTC 2001 |
So over all, we were pretty discouraged (but not surprised). If we do
decide to apply, I'll need to do some work to put together a financial
statement to go with the application. The application asks for our
latest form 990, which is the federal return required of all nonprofits
who gross more than $25,000 per year. We're always well under that
amount, so we've never had to fill out form 990. I'll either have to
do that, or work up some other statement which says where our money
comes from and where it goes to.
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eeyore
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response 2 of 24:
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Jul 20 00:43 UTC 2001 |
Okay, I'm sorry to say this, but what a prick! I don't get people who run
with the theory of "It hasn't been done before, therefore it cannot be done."
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janc
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response 3 of 24:
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Jul 20 00:54 UTC 2001 |
It's not a personal decision. It's his job to make decisions consistant
with previous precident. Setting new precidents when needed is the job
of the Board of Review and the Michigan Tax Tribunal. He'd be a much
bigger prick if he acted outside his authority and usurped the duty of
the superior committees.
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cmcgee
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response 4 of 24:
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Jul 20 01:13 UTC 2001 |
Actually, he's not a prick at all. His job is to ensure that the City of
Ann Arbor collects as much of the assessed taxes as possible. Every
dollar that we are exempted from paying is a dollar that is not available
for city services that we use like fire department, streets department,
etc. We are essentially asking that we have city services available to
us without paying for them.
In his case, he is trying to keep his personal feelings out of the
process. If the Tax Tribunal has made a state-wide decision that applies
to us, he applies it. If no ruling has been made, and there is no clear
statement in the law that internet service providers are exempt, he
doesn't "make new law" by granting us an exemption. He passes that
decision on to the state-wide tribunal so that the process is applied as
consitently as possible across the state.
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aruba
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response 5 of 24:
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Jul 20 17:30 UTC 2001 |
My inclination at this point is not to file the application. So if anyone
feels strongly that we should, please speak up.
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steve
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response 6 of 24:
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Jul 20 17:42 UTC 2001 |
Given the incredible odds against us, I can see not filing. But what
a wonderful system we have. My absolute disgust with government has only
increased with this entire incident. What galls me the most is the way
it's set up, the barriers are raised to high, and the automatic denials
make it completely discouraging to even attempt. It's probably not worth
it, filing.
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mary
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response 7 of 24:
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Jul 20 19:27 UTC 2001 |
Well, I'm not disgusted. It is a stretch to think of ourselves
as primarily serving the poor or at least those who can't afford
to pay for connectivity. For the most part I'd bet most of our
users have ISP service and are here as a recreational activity.
Grex is more of a social club than a library and we don't really
deserve to be tax exempt.
Sure, there are a few poor folks here who need to dial-in for
access out. But if we were seriously courting this group we'd
be putting a whole lot more effort into improving dial-up access.
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dpc
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response 8 of 24:
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Jul 20 19:27 UTC 2001 |
I don't think we should file.
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aruba
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response 9 of 24:
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Jul 20 21:28 UTC 2001 |
I'm not disgusted either. Everyone I've dealt with over at City Hall has
done their very best to be helpful to us, and I can see that they are just
people trying to do their jobs. It doesn't work in our favor, but it
doesn't seem unreasonable, either, that new policy has to be set at the
state level rather than the city level. That's to keep there from being one
standard for exemption in Ann Arbor, another in Alpena, another in Grand
Rapids, etc.
Let's not forget that we're arguing over a grand total of $116 per year.
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russ
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response 10 of 24:
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Jul 21 03:53 UTC 2001 |
What about all the cities that DON'T bother to try to assess
personal-property tax against non-profits (or at all)? Isn't
that a different standard?
$116 a year is two members. Grex uses a lot less police, fire,
garbage and such services than the average individual, and
individuals don't have to pay this tax.
I think the ridiculous lengths that Ann Arbor is going to to
collect a lousy $116/year, and how much it wastes, merits some
kind of protest. Maybe that should take the form of filing for
an exemption, maybe not.
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gull
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response 11 of 24:
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Jul 21 04:48 UTC 2001 |
I don't think filing an exemption would make many waves. I don't see any
point in wasting staff time on filing an exemption when it'll have about as
much effect as chucking nerf balls at a brick wall.
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aruba
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response 12 of 24:
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Jul 21 17:11 UTC 2001 |
Russ: $116 is not nothing, certainly. But it won't break us, and compared
to the price of hiring a lawyer to argue for us in front of the Michigan Tax
Tribunal, it's not very much. If we had a lawyer who was willing to do it
for free, that might be a different matter. But it still would be more
productive, I think, to spend time trying to raise a little extra money,
than fighting city hall.
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steve
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response 13 of 24:
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Nov 8 20:31 UTC 2001 |
Sorry for the belated response, but Russ has quite well stated part of
my disgust. He is absolutely right, in that they very likely spent MORE
than what they got from us. Thus it is very likely a loss for everyone:
we lost money which we could have used ourselves, and the city lost because
they're inefficient enough that they took a hit for even trying.
Mark, I understand (and appreciate) that the people you talked to were
nice and helpful, but that in NO WAY detracts from the fact that this
is a *disgusting* thing to do to a small organization. It didn't help
the city financially this year--and given how much it costs to administrate
things, it might not ever come out being a positive cash flow for
them.
Sorry to open this up again.
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aruba
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response 14 of 24:
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Nov 9 01:09 UTC 2001 |
It's just reality, STeve.
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janc
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response 15 of 24:
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Nov 9 04:13 UTC 2001 |
The city will keep collecting every year for the rest of Grex's existance
in Ann Arbor. Getting us on the tax roll may have cost some effort, but
their costs in future years will be much lower, in the long run, collecting
taxes from us will pay off.
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steve
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response 16 of 24:
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Nov 9 21:11 UTC 2001 |
It is a reality Mark, but it isn't the only one. There are various
"reinventing government" movements which have dealt with this exact issue,
namely the cost of administrating things and how to deal with that. The
leading group for this zeems to be in New Zealand, where such inequities
have been examinded AND DONE AWAY WITH. I know a group in Boston who is
doing the same thing.
Probably I should gather up some of my notes on this and start an item
in Agora. The phrase "its just reality" is true, but it doesn't have to
be that way. We can have more intelligent government.
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aruba
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response 17 of 24:
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Nov 9 21:24 UTC 2001 |
Well, if we move Grex to New Zealand, then we'll be all set. In the
meantime, there is only one reality that we have access to. You know,
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
the courage to accept the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference
I think you should work on the serenity part, STeve. :)
(BTW I got that by doing a google search on "the wisdom to know the
difference", and cribbed the text from "Cocaine Anonymous of Nevada".)
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other
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response 18 of 24:
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Nov 9 21:36 UTC 2001 |
Geez, I always thought it was:
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to to accept the things I can
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those who got in my way.
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flem
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response 19 of 24:
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Nov 9 21:38 UTC 2001 |
STeve, for what it's worth, I agree with you; this is just stupid. But on
the list of stupid things the government does that I'm worried about, this
is way, way down there.
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aruba
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response 20 of 24:
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Nov 9 21:50 UTC 2001 |
(Actually, I did get it wrong: it should be "the courage to *change* the
things I can".)
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steve
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response 21 of 24:
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Nov 9 23:13 UTC 2001 |
Yes Greg, there are a whole new set of worries to have about our
government. I can't argue that, nor their importance.
I've found some of my notes on this subject. If I can I will try
to enter an item soon about this and not derail this subject any more.
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russ
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response 22 of 24:
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Nov 13 01:35 UTC 2001 |
I suppose that one of the possible (likely?) results of this
fiscally ridiculous harassment from the city is that Grex will
move out of Ann Arbor at some point. It would perhaps be more
fitting to leave some item of trivial value so that a tax check,
amounting to less than the city's per-item deposit fee, has to
be sent in once a year. Then this could be brought up before
City Council until they get rid of such nuisance taxation.
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gull
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response 23 of 24:
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Nov 13 14:51 UTC 2001 |
Sort of like leaving a stack of pennies as a tip? ;>
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cmcgee
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response 24 of 24:
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Nov 14 13:56 UTC 2001 |
Believe me, City Council won't pay a bit of attention. The City
Council, through its employee, the tax assessor, collects all the
taxes it is able to collect, and cannot treat one group differently
than other groups.
The appeal for this is to the State Tax Tribunal, not the City
Council. The city must follow state law in this case. The only
exceptions to this tax are for not-for-profit organizations that
provide a service the city would otherwise have to provide itself.
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