Grex's ID policy - email with account usgov

Apr 13 19:04 UTC 2001

About a month ago, Grex received a check from a company called Property
Exchange and Sales, Inc., for membership for account usgov.  The following
exchange of emails ensued, amid a good deal of discussion among the board
and staff of how to respond.  (Both of my responses were vetted by the board
and staff.)  I didn't think it was appropriate to bring this up directly in
coop before, since the details of transactions with Grex are private.  I am
posting this now at the request of the user.

response 2 of 133:

Apr 13 19:07 UTC 2001

Hi Property Exchange & Sales Inc. - I got your check - thanks!  Grex 
appreciates your support.  There are a couple of things that need to be done 
before I can activate your membership.

First of all, we require some form of ID from all of our members.  For an 
explanation of why, see http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#doineedid .  
For institutional members, we need a photocopy, scan, or fax of an id (such 
as a driver's license or passport) of an individual whom we can contact in 
case of trouble with the account.

You can either:
- photocopy the ID and send it to

        Cyberspace Communications
        P.O. Box 4432
        Ann Arbor, MI 48106-4432,

- fax a copy to 734-930-6564, or
- scan it in and email it to mconger@umich.edu .  If you get a message back 
from Grex saying it bounced, don't worry, it still arrived at my other 
account.  Just send me mail at aruba@cyberspace.org to let me know I should 
go get it.

Second, you wrote in your letter:

"We understand that we will obtain full use of Grex including voting, Wizard 
in Training, use of Internet Link, etc."

That's not quite right, because while institutions can enjoy almost all of 
the benefits of individuals when they become members, the exception is that 
they may not vote in Grex elections.  This restriction was put in to 
dispel the possibility that someone could get more than one vote by using 
corporate memberships.

The legally-minded types on our staff want me to make sure you acknowledge 
that difference between what you wrote and how it will be, just so we're all 
on the same page.

Third, and finally, you should be aware that while incidental commercial use 
of Grex is fine, Grex is not a good platform for serious business ventures.  
The reasons for this include:

1. Grex is run entirely by volunteers.  They do a fine job of maintaining 
the system, but they can't be counted on to jump when you say jump (or to 
move at "the speed of business.")

2. Grex's budget is tiny compared to all but the smallest of commercial 
ventures.  A business that's doing any volume at all would do well to invest 
in a commercial ISP account.

3. Grex memberships are not contracts for services, they are donations.  
Furthermore, Grex is membership owned and governed democratically.  So far 
in Grex's 9.5 year history the membership has been very conservative about 
changing Grex policy on things like membership benefits, and it's likely 
that will continue to be so.  But you should be aware of the possibility 
that it might not always be so.

That's it - I apologize for the bureaucracy.  I look forward to hearing from 
you soon.

response 4 of 133:

Apr 13 19:09 UTC 2001

I'm afraid our ID policy is quite firm.  See

http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#doineedid and
http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#instid

for more information on the policy.  In a nutshell, We are very comfortable 
allowing anonymous users access to Grex, but we are not comfortable 
unleashing them on the rest of the Internet.  It would be irresponsible to 
allow people we can't identify to telnet through Grex to other systems, so 
we require ID from everyone we allow to do that.  In the case of 
institutional members, we need the id of a contact person whom we can 
contact in case of trouble.

Many people do send us copies of driver's licenses and passports, and I 
promise you that if IBM ever requests a Grex membership, we'll ask them for 
one too.  :)

I haven't deposited your check.  I'm waiting until we resolve the ID issue.

I should say that we are great supporters of anonymous access.  Anyone is 
welcome to use Grex anonymously, or to donate money anonymously.  But we 
require ID from all our members.

Grex is a democratic institution, and all its policies are ultimately 
decided by the membership.  If you think our ID policy should be changed, 
enter an item in the coop conference suggesting the change. If enough people 
agree with you, you'll get what you want.  (And if they don't, you'll find 
out why.)

> P.S> We applaud you and your organization for putting grex together.  It
> seems like a great way to learn at the same time as being quite practical.

Thanks!

> P.S. Do you have a dial-up-line?  What is it?  We don't suppose you have 
> an #800 number for it, do you.

We do have a dialin number, it's 734-761-3000.  Sorry no 800 service.

response 6 of 133:

Apr 13 20:30 UTC 2001

Sounds like y'all did good.

response 8 of 133:

Apr 13 21:55 UTC 2001

You're response was nicely put, Mark.

I'd send this check back stating we hope they can find
a system which better suits their needs and allows the
type of personal anonymity they desire.

response 10 of 133:

Apr 13 22:01 UTC 2001

Unfortunately, we don't have an address to send the check back to, since
they never gave us one.

response 12 of 133:

Apr 13 22:18 UTC 2001

A search on google.com for Property Exchanges & Sales Inc. in
Missouri turned up the following (amusing IMHO) URLs:

http://www.usps.com/judicial/1991deci/37-120.htm
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1992deci/39-14.htm

Obviously I don't have proof that these are the same folks, but it
does seem likely, again IMHO.

response 14 of 133:

Apr 13 23:50 UTC 2001

The check does not have an address on it?  If so, they really do value
anonymity.

response 16 of 133:

Apr 14 01:58 UTC 2001

(hmm.  I've made photocopies of both my passport [expired] and driver's 
license for the purpose of identification in the event either become 
missing.  strangely enough, I couldn't find a cite in Missouri law 
[http://mosl.sos.state.mo.us/csr/csr.htm] nor in U.S. law for PESI's 
claims, although the State Department will provide copies of passports 
[http://travel.state.gov/passport_records.html] for a fee.)

(of course, it's a bit amusing that PESI refers to IBM, Turner 
Broadcasting, and NBC as organizations that wish to protect "[t]he 
privacy of corporate officers", seeing as all three [Turner being a 
subsidiary of AOL-Time Warner] are publicly-held companies and 
accountable to their shareholders. heck, AOL-Time Warner 
[http://www.aoltimewarner.com/about/whos_who/] and NBC [http://nbci-
www2.xoom.com/corporate/NBCi_bkgd.html] both list their corporate 
officers BY NAME on their websites.  IBM doesn't, but they have a toll-
free number [(800)IBM-4YOU] to call for information.)

(I'm not surprised that PESI [apparently] declined to check Mark's 
reference to why Grex asks for ID for memberships, otherwise PESI 
wouldn't have so rudely accused Mark of making up his "own personal 
policy."  also, PESI would have seen that ID *other than driver's 
licenses and passports* are acceptable.  but that's neither here nor 
there.)

(Mark, I'm impressed again with your ability [and preference] to handle 
the matter privately.  you've demonstrated poise, patience, and 
professionalism, three things that are hard to come by.  I'm glad we 
[as Grex] managed to snag you for our purposes.)  ;)

(I don't believe PESI's support is worth the headache, IMO.)

response 18 of 133:

Apr 14 02:30 UTC 2001

Re 16:  "you've demonstrated poise, patience, and professionalism, three
things that are hard to come by.  I'm glad we [as Grex] managed to snag
you for our purposes."

Hear, hear!

PESI seems to have some difficulty understanding what Grex is about, and
their insistence that we do things their way and their personal jibes at
Mark are just plain rude.  I hope for their sake they conduct the rest of
their business transactions with a bit more courtesy and professionalism.

I've been asked to photocopy my driver's license and social security card
for every job I've applied for, and to photocopy my passport when studying
abroad with a school group.  I'd be surprised to learn that it's really
against federal law to do so, although stranger things have happened...

response 20 of 133:

Apr 14 03:38 UTC 2001

Re #14: The check *had* an address on it, but the address was carefully
typed over with the letter "s" before the check was mailed.  There was no
return address on the envelope.

response 22 of 133:

Apr 14 03:48 UTC 2001

I commend you Mark.  You did the best you can.

response 24 of 133:

Apr 14 04:46 UTC 2001

I'm really skeptical that an "honest internet user" would have taken
the login "usgov," especially when hiding behind a wall of anonymity.
Wish them well and speed them on their way.