response 1 of 183:

Dec 8 07:32 UTC 2000

I'm not sure how useful the javascript would be, and the
upgrade may have security implications.  I don't know if the
ability to 'correctly' display bad HTML is a good thing. SSL
and improved Cyrillic sound as though they might be of use
to some people though.

response 3 of 183:

Dec 9 21:51 UTC 2000

Um, Cindy, has staff asked for assistance on this?  As far as I know,
individual members don't decide what software Grex is going to run.

response 5 of 183:

Dec 10 18:13 UTC 2000

Yes, and staff kindly put on a newer version of TALK (YTALK) when someone I
was chatting with recommended it.  I am still trying to find out which versin
of lynx mnet is running - anyone know?  (Is m-net still alive?  I could not
manage to even get to the point where I typed in newuser).  
        I don't see that bringing up the issue in coop is 'deciding' what
software grex is running.  Grex is already running lynx, the issue was whether
to upgrade it, i. e., does any staff member want to bother.  Or does someone
know of a reason why 2.8.3 is not better than what we already have?

response 7 of 183:

Dec 11 00:38 UTC 2000

Could you let me know what lynx m-net is running, and why I am not given a
change to even type newuser (a couple of days ago)?

response 9 of 183:

Dec 11 07:37 UTC 2000

I don't think there's any problem with discussing this in Coop, with the
understanding that the Grex staff are a bunch of overworked volunteers, and
that the current policy is that the staff decide, with whatever input they
want to listen to, what software should be installed on Grex.  Suggestions
are encouraged, but they may not always be acted upon, sometimes for sound
technical reasons, sometimes for not so sound technical reasons, and sometimes
because while they're good ideas, people may not have the time.

Grex's members also have final say on system policies.  If a member wants a
policy change the board doesn't agree with, the member can bring the policy
change to a vote.  Such a policy change could be to require that a particular
software version be installed (although this item certainly isn't a request
for such a policy change, as far as I can tell).  I would suggest, though,
that a policy change preventing staff from using their usual judgement about
what software Grex should run, while being something the membership could
decide to do, would not be a good idea.

response 11 of 183:

Dec 11 15:41 UTC 2000

Or we could start a letter-writing campaign and have every Grex
user e-mail the webmaster of the offending site.  I'm sure
a few thousand letters of complaint will convince them of
the error of their ways.  >8)

response 13 of 183:

Dec 11 18:54 UTC 2000

I just succeeded in dialing 661-1234, typing mnet (login) and Enter (password)
and then Newuser, and signed up in a jiffy with m-nets really nice new Newuser
program, that does not require decision making, or phone numbers.  Lynx 2.8.3
worked perfectly on my problematic Russian website, and the new
transliteration system is a real pleasure to read.  My test javascript page
still does not work.  I did not check out tables - is there a good test site
for that?  M-net also offers a 2M mail quota (4M if you pay) and members and
patrons gets 1.5-3M other space.  And the modems are 56K.  I am about to send
them a check for 6 months' membership.  (In M-net's case there is no issue
of whether members' dues are earning interest as they never have any money
anyway.)  

response 15 of 183:

Dec 11 20:31 UTC 2000

This is one reason I will be sending M-Net a check.  I have sent e-mail via
m-net on occasion when grex was down.  Plus, supporting m-net means that
m-netters will not be using grex bbs to call each other names.  
Does it cost m-net extra to make possible free local dialins from all those
numbers?  

lynx 2.8.3 supports centering, and simple tables no more than 80 columns wide.
The help menu seems to have been updated and gives lots of useful advice, such
as how to read frames that are not labelled.  The options menu has been redone
and I found it easier to use.  There were 231 pages about changes made since
version 2.8, and 2.8.3 claims to have improved security.  
Many of the changes referred to CHARSET and something about curses and patches
(I think to compensate for a bug in some other program).  Most of this is way
over my head, and it would take me 100 years or so to learn enough to install
LYNX386, so I am delighted that m-net's staff already did the upgrade.

response 17 of 183:

Dec 12 00:19 UTC 2000

Another thing that lynx 2.8.3 does to circumvent the bad habits of web
designers is to display the name of each gif or jpeg instead of just [image],
so that you have some idea what is going on in the page.  If the site were
designed properly, the image would 'display' on lynx as an alternate text
description, but the name of the file is better than the nothing that lynx
2.8.x gets. [filler.gif] [banana.gif][tree.jpg] etc.   Lynx (even the current
version) displays the character < as <, also second-guessing people like me who
did not know you are supposed to write it as &#lt (?).  Netscape 4 does the
same but two other browsers did not, they just treated it as a bad < > command
and ignored everything between < and the next >, some of which was text.  Lynx
has a way of showing a lot of html, not the same way as Netscape, but in a
usable form.  You can set it up to treat all images as links so that they can
be downloaded and viewed.  What is is about javascript that makes lynx unable
to handle it?  There was one site where I could not choose a language from a
list because the list was blank. THere is obviously a tremendous amount of work
going into the design and debugging of lynx, apparently all by volunteers, the
same people who will be using it.

response 19 of 183:

Dec 12 20:21 UTC 2000

This is not a friend, it is someone in Russia writing software, as a
volunteer, for a non-profit, who somehow got hold of my name and asked for
a free translation.  He apparently translated his site into English by himself
and I cannot figure out from the English what a 'curving consulting center'
might mean.  Hypersonic diagnostics was ultrasound.  Another Russian working
on the problem said he could not read it with Netscape 4 for NT, but Netscape
6 could handle Frontpage HTML.  So can the latest lynx, but not the one we
have.  Nor can Arachne.  The author told me his pages were in 'unicode'. 
They are not, they are simply 'code' that never got translated because the
meta tag tells the browser it is CP-1252 (W. European) while the text is
written in CP-1251 (Cyrillic).  Lynx 2.8.3 apparently recognizes from the
actual range of characters which encoding is correct, and also ignores FONT
FACE = ARIAL NARROW (which is not available in Cyrillic).  In order to use
Frontpage to write Cyrillic, says another expert, you have to go through and
manually delete all FONT FACE=, as well as learning to set the charset
properly.  
        I use pico to write html, or Jim's text editor, or even WP51 (I have
a wp2html convertor).

response 21 of 183:

Dec 14 23:41 UTC 2000

M-net obviously needs the money more than grex, so I figure I am doing both
systems a favor this way.  Monopolies are not a good thing.  Would the m-net
staff person who set up lynx there want to do the same for grex?  

response 23 of 183:

Dec 15 02:25 UTC 2000

(you need larger ears.)  :)