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aruba
Questions for the Accounting Aid Society Mark Unseen   Aug 12 06:16 UTC 1998

Sometime soon a couple of Grex board and/or staff members plan on driving
to Detroit to meet with some experts at the Accounting Aid Society to discuss
our 501(c)3 status.  The goal will be to ask as many questions as we can and
get (hopefully) well-informed answers.  My understanding is that answering
such questions is one of the main purposes of the AAS.

This item is to accumulate questions.  So post the things you think we ought
to ask.
51 responses total.
aruba
response 1 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 12 06:20 UTC 1998

Here are the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Are our membership dues deductible?
What kind of receipts does the treasurer need to give people?
Are there any licenses we need that we don't already have?
What is the effective date of our 501(c)3 status?

I realize we think we know the answers to some of these.  But I want to ask
an expert just the same.
davel
response 2 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 12 11:29 UTC 1998

Given the discussion here, so far, I wouldn't ask (only) that last question
as it stands.  You might start with it worded that way, but what we're really
interested in is two separate questions:  as of what date is Grex exempt from
paying taxes (and which)? and as of what date can donors deduct their
contributions?  I suspect the answers will be the same, but they wouldn't have
to be.

We also want to know about corporate personal property tax.  Possibly you
should also go fishing: are there any other consequences of 501(c)3 status
which we haven't thought of but which we should know about?
rcurl
response 3 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 12 16:14 UTC 1998

May any portion of membership dues be not deductible and, if so, what
are the criteria and limits?

May any portion of payments for auction items be deductible and, if so,
what are the criteria and limits? 

Should Grex apply for a state charitable solicitation license?

For what local, state and federal taxes on goods and services is Grex
exempt? If any, how is that exemption obtained?


mary
response 4 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 12 19:47 UTC 1998

Who will be the representatives at this meeting?
mta
response 5 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 12 23:10 UTC 1998

Mark, I would guess...
aruba
response 6 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 13 00:00 UTC 1998

I sent mail to everyone on the board and staff asking for volunteers.  I got
a few conditional maybes.  So if anyone else would like to volunteer, feel
free to speak up.  I don't think more than 3 of us should go, for the sake
of getting something done.
mary
response 7 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 13 11:43 UTC 1998

I'd like to see Aaron attend.
davel
response 8 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 14 01:02 UTC 1998

So would I.
janc
response 9 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 23 02:09 UTC 1998

I should probably attend this meeting, as president and author of the
501(c)3 application.
lilmo
response 10 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 24 23:22 UTC 1998

Another question, if it's not too late:  What's the best way to keep
up-to-date on anynew priviliges or restrictions facing CCI, as a 501(c)3
organization?
rcurl
response 11 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 25 05:46 UTC 1998

Another question occured to me also. If dues are not 100% deductibe if
itemized, are gift memberships also not 100% deductible to the donor
(who receives no financial benefit from the donation).
altreal
response 12 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 25 22:33 UTC 1998

i would think that if you bought a gift membership, it would still be affected
by the value of the benefits of the membership, regardless of what you decided
to do with the membership (such as give it away).  i have no reason to know
this, but the logic seems pragmatic from the POV of a government agency which
assumes that everyone who deals with it from the private sector will cheat
it if at all possible...
rcurl
response 13 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 25 23:50 UTC 1998

Still, the donor got no benefits. 
scg
response 14 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 26 03:10 UTC 1998

Yes, but if I buy some more tangible gift, and give it to a friend, I
theoretically get no benefit other than my friends' gratitude, which could
also come from giving a Grex membership.  Still, assuming my friend isn't a
501(c)3 organization, I can't deduct the gift just becasue I didn't benefit
from it.
rcurl
response 15 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 26 04:57 UTC 1998

If you buy an object and donate it to a 501(c)3 organization, you can
deduct the full value of that object (providing the organization accepts it!).
You can only *not* deduct the value of the gift that *you* receive back,
in turn. The IRS is only interested in the relation between your gift
and what you did or did not receive in exchange for it. What the non-profit
does with the gift is its business. 
davel
response 16 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 26 10:13 UTC 1998

Right, but the question here is where I buy a membership & give it to someone
else myself, I think.
rcurl
response 17 of 51: Mark Unseen   Aug 26 16:54 UTC 1998

You can't do that. You can only donate the money and *request* that it be
for another's membership. If the organization honors that request, it is
giving the membership. Since the organization is tax exempt, no taxes need
be paid on the gift.

Consider this to be a 'paradox' - which is why I suggested that the AIS
be asked about it. In my opinion, Grex dues are already 100% deductible,
so the question may be moot.
aruba
response 18 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 24 19:47 UTC 1998

Jan and I went to the Accounting Aid Society yesterday and met with a woman 
named R. Sue Dodea, whose title at the Society is "Director of Nonprofit 
Services", for about an hour and 45 minutes.  Here's our report on the 
questions we asked and the answers we got. 

Q1: Are Grex membership dues deductible from the donor's taxable income?

A: The amount that is deductible is the amount someone pays minus the value 
of the service they receive.  She said a good way to estimate service would be 
to take the total budget for Grex for a year and divide that by the number of 
users.  When she heard that that came out to only $.32 per user per year, 
however, she thought we should declare the actual amount of service to be 
higher, just to keep the IRS from thinking that we are trying to pull 
something.  In fact the amount of service members receive is slightly higher 
than what regular users receive, but according to Ms. Dodea, since that 
increment in service is not commercially available it does not have value 
in the eyes of the IRS.

If we do declare that the amount of service received is only $.32, that is a 
"de minimus" value, and donors can ignore it and deduct the entirety of 
their dues payments.

Q2: When does our 501(c)3 status backdate to?

A: The filing date of Cyberspace Communications as a Michigan corporation, 
which was June 21st, 1991.

Q3: What kind of receipts does the treasurer need to give people who donate 
money?

We had a long and rather heated discussion on this point.  I explained the 
current system: whenever I receive money, I record it in my database of Grex 
finances and send out an e-mail acknowledging receipt of the money.  I 
understand that paper receipts are necessary for people who want to claim a 
deduction on their tax returns.

Ms. Dodea insisted that we need to send out paper receipts to everyone who 
sends in money.  She said that the IRS, if they ever audit us, will 
demand to see our paper copies of receipts that we send to people, and may 
call random donors to check to make sure they really exist and can confirm 
that they sent money to Grex.  I countered that I can easily print out my 
credits table, which amounts to a list of receipts, and so the only thing 
missing from our system is that donors don't currently have paper receipts.
But even if we mailed them out, they can't all be expected to keep them, so 
it's not like the IRS would conclude that we were fraudulent if the donors 
they called didn't have receipts.

So the bottom line is that I would like to send out paper receipts only to the 
people who request them, and Ms. Dodea thinks we should send them out to all 
donors.  During the last year 128 people sent money to Grex, in 371 separate 
credits.  If I sent out a separate receipt for each credit, that would cost 
Grex $118.72 in postage.  If we just sent one to every contributor at the end 
of the year, that would cost $40.96.  The main barrier is just the hassle of 
doing it.

I'm under the impression that the vast majority of our contributors are happy 
with the current system, but would like to hear about it if that is not the  
case.  That doesn't mean the IRS would be happy with it, of course, and I 
would appreciate a second opinion on whether they would really disapprove of 
our current system.  I asked if maybe there was some way we could get a "fake 
audit" done, to see how our system holds up, and she said no, but suggested 
that maybe we could talk to someone at the UM Business School who was 
interested in such things to help us out.  Perhaps, she said, someone who was 
training to be an auditor might be willing to practice on us.  I think that's 
an idea worth pursuing.

Q4: What licenses do we need that we don't already have?

A: We need a Michigan Charitable Solicitation License.  Ms. Dodea gave me the 
number of the state Attorney General's office in Lansing, and I called and 
ordered us an application for the license.  We do not need a special license 
for the auction. 

Q5: May any portion of a payment for an auction item be deducted?  If so, what
are the criteria and limits?

A: Yes.  Here's an example similar to one we discussed:  Suppose Jane donates 
an object which she estimates (to herself, not out loud) to be worth about 
$10.  Because of Jane's great personal charm and sentimental aspects of the 
object, the bidding gets heated and Bob ends up winning it for $30.

In this case Jane is entitled to deduct what she estimates is the value of 
the object, i.e. $10.  John, if he comes to his senses, is entitled to deduct 
the difference between what he paid and what he estimates the object is worth. 
 Assuming he also estimates the value at $10, he can deduct $30-$10 = $20.   
Thus if they both make the same estimate on value, the total amount deducted 
will be $30, the amount Grex actually received.

However, Grex has no obligation to provide estimates of the values of items in 
the auction, or to make sure that the donor and the buyer use the same 
estimate.  That is the responsibility of the people claiming the exemption.

If the item in question is valued at over $250, however, things might get a 
bit sticky.  In that case it's not quite clear what we need to do; probably we 
need to estimate the value of the item when we make out a receipt for the 
payment.  One way around the stickiness would be not to accept any items which 
the donor estimates to be worth more than $250.  So if Bill wants to donate a 
brand-new laser printer which he just bought for $1200, he could agree with 
the auctioneer that the value was only $249, and not claim more than that on 
his taxes, and we'd be all set.

Ms. Dodea recommended IRS puplication 526 as a good guideline for these 
questions.

Q6: Are we exempt from federal phone taxes?

A: Shortly after we got our 501(c)3 status I wrote to Ameritech to ask if we 
could get out of paying taxes on our phone bill.  They sent me back two forms, 
one to apply for exemption from state taxes and the other for federal taxes.  
The state form was easy, and asked only for things we already had.  The 
federal form, however, gave a list of categories of exempt organizations, and 
we didn't seem to fit into any of them.

Ms. Dodea thought we ought to be exempt from federal taxes, but when shown the 
form and its categories wasn't sure what we should do.  She doesn't think 
Ameritech has the purview to distinguish between different types of 501(c)3 
organizations in deciding who is exempt, but it's unclear whether the form was 
written by Ameritech or by the feds.  (It says "Ameritech" at the top, but the 
writing sounds like it comes from IRS regs.)  Her best advice was to recruit  
a lawyer from among our ranks to research the question.  Any volunteers?

Q7: What's the best way to keep up-to-date on any new 
privileges/responsibilities facing us as a 501(c)3 organization?

A: She advised us to buy the AAS's handbook for non-profits, which costs (I 
believe) $50 for members.  But they are currently revising it and expect a new 
edition to be out in about May, so she advised us to wait until then.

Q8: What about personal property taxes?  Is there any help applying for an 
exemption?

Ms. Dodea said that the City of Ann Arbor does indeed have the right to 
distinguish among 501(c)3 organizations when deciding whether or not they are 
exempt from personal property taxes.  She cited the example of a city in 
Pennsylvania that passed a law to tax a university that was wihin the city 
limits.  The IRS ruled that while that particular law was not valid, cities 
did have the right to pass such rules. 

However, she showed us some pages from AAS's manual for nonprofits which say:

----------------------------------
2.13    Personal Property Tax Exemption for Furnishings, Equipment, etc.

2.13.1  Exempt Personal Property

The following personal property is exempt from taxation:

The personal property of charitable, educational, and scientific institutions 
incorporated in Michigan, (except for secret and fraternal societies) and 
charitable homes of the societies and nonprofit corporations which own and 
operate facilities for the aged and chronically ill.

The property of all library associations, reading rooms, etc., which are owned 
or supported by the public and not used for gain.

The personal property of patriotic(!), religious, and young people's 
associations.

2.13.2  Reporting Requirements

Personal property  subject to the tax is reported to the assessor by the 
taxpayer.  Exempt personal property does not have to be reported.  
Consequently, an exempt organization maintains its  exempt status by simply 
not reporting the exempt property.  If the assessor wants to change the 
status, the burden will then shift to the assessor to place some value onto 
the assessment roll.  The assessor is permitted to require the filing of a 
sworn statement showing that the exempt entity owns only exempt property.
--------------------------------
(!) mine.

So this all has me thoroughly confused.  I think we are a charitable and 
educational institution, but I don't know who gets to decide that.  Ms. 
Dodea's best advice, again, was to find a lawyer in our midst who would be 
willing to pursue the matter.
dpc
response 19 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 24 20:56 UTC 1998

Dodea's surmise that if we are audited the IRS will want to see individual
receipts we have written to all our contributors is incorrect.  At least
when M-Net was audited in 1996, our auditor did *not* ask to see such
receipts.
        This is an impressive report, aruba!
jiffer
response 20 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 24 21:13 UTC 1998

Wow, this is great.  Glad to see someone researching this!
rcurl
response 21 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 24 22:03 UTC 1998

Unfortunately, Ms. Dodea is obviously not conversant with non-profit tax
law. Forget almost everything she said, which means everything since you
can't tell which is correct and which is not, and ask a real tax attorney,
or follow the rules in the books. 

It is evident that receipts with carbon copies are not required, as almost
no 501(c)3 nonprofits send receipts for dues or the deductible portion of
memberships (I get a dozen or some magazines from such nonprofits and none
has ever sent a receipt). However you must always provide a receipt for an
outright cash donation. 

Federal tax laws specifically permit a certain minimum of membership
benefits, which are spelled out or established by tax cases. 

You do not have to estimate the value of any donated goods. That is the
responsibility of the donor. If you think you should, say "Thank you for
the donation of <such and such>, which you have stated is worth $<so and
so>." Of course, you have to keep track of the auction income from the
item for your tax records. 

There's a lot more to be said, but the bottom line is: just be honest and
straightforward to the best of your knowledge based upon the manual and
comprehensive guidlines written by tax attorneys. If all else fails, DO
NOT ask the IRS.... 8^}

aruba
response 22 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 25 02:16 UTC 1998

How about quoting us some regulations that disagree with her, Rane, because
frankly, her qualifications in this area are a lot more impressive than yours,
so if I have to pick based on that, I'll go with what she said.  I'd rather
not send paper receipts to everyone, though.

If we could afford a tax attorney, I would be happy to consult with him/her,
too.  Anyone know of a tax attorney who would help us pro bono?
rcurl
response 23 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 25 08:01 UTC 1998

In what respects are her credentials better than mine, Mark? What she
mainly said (after being tripped up several times) is buy their $50 book. 
She didn't quote any regulations - just gave her opinions, or said look it
up. 

valerie
response 24 of 51: Mark Unseen   Nov 25 16:00 UTC 1998

This response has been erased.

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