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Grex > Coop11 > #170: GREX Internet Connection Moves, but where? | |
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GREX Internet Connection Moves, but where?
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May 9 23:44 UTC 2000 |
This item is for discussion of the forthcoming move and possible alteration
of Grex's internet connection.
This was begun via mail, but I will leave it to those who better understand
the issues involved to enter relevant portions of those messages.
The background is the the person whose residence is the connection point for
our access is moving, and may not stay in town long-term after the move.
Either we move our ISDN connection with him, or we arrange an alternate
solution. Being discussed are DSL (and providers thereof) and alternate
providers of ISDN service.
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| 91 responses total. |
scg
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response 1 of 91:
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May 10 01:46 UTC 2000 |
I just posted this in the other item:
The situation was mentioned to me, with no firm timeline, a week or two ago.
I probably didn't mention it to anybody else at the time. The staff was
just told about the situation this morning. We would presumably have gotten
more notice if we were paying market rates for a connection from a commercial
provider, rather than getting a free connection from a friend, but we'd be
paying a lot more for it too.
Basically, we have two choices that make sense. One is to move the ISDN line
to Dorian's new place. We'll probably pay something like a $140 installation
charge, and other than that our monthly costs will remain the same.
Alternatively, we could get a DSL connection from a commercial ISP. The DSL
connection would cost a bit more, but not enough more to make a huge
difference. It would be slightly faster, and probably slightly more reliable,
but again not enough to make a huge difference.
It's really not a huge issue. The board has to decide to do one or the other,
and the decision has to be made fast, but it really doesn't matter very much
which.
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jared
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response 2 of 91:
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May 10 01:56 UTC 2000 |
I'm back....
Short story:
a long time ago, I arranged for grex to have basically
free ISDN, all that was needed was grex to buy two ISDN routers
and the ISDN lines for each end.
The end of the ISDN line goes to someones home, and has for probally 1.5
years. Should the ISDN line be moved to the new home? Should an
alternate provider be chosen? Should alternate media be chosen?
Choices:
DSL. Covad provides dsl resale to quite a number of internet providers
in south east michigan, including big.net, wwnet.net, voyager.net, and
many many others i'm sure. the location grex is at is about 4000 feet from
the central office. This qualifies for EVERY type of dsl possible,
including 144k ADSL -> 1.5M SDSL.
The only question there would be selecting an internet provider, as
Ameritech owns the copper from the central office to grex, and covad
would lease it from ameritech, and in turn an internet provider would
lease it from Covad.
ISDN:
Move ISDN line. We would need to pre-qualify to determine if ISDN is
available. There would be at least a $130 charge to
install a new ISDN line at the far end.
Change providers to a Commercial internet provider. This provides grex
with the ability to eliminate one ISDN line, and pay money
to someone else for the line on their side, and for support. I do not
know how much this costs from most places, but I would suspect that
it would be around $100-250/mo depending on deals and shopping around.
We would end up with a spare ISDN router (as grex owns the ISDN router
located at the current provider). This also provides more stability
than the current provider, but would require (as would DSL) renumbering
to new IP numbers, which is fairly painless these days..
I'm serving as the liason between Grex and the current ISDN provider,
so please direct comments/questions my direction.
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jared
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response 3 of 91:
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May 10 01:56 UTC 2000 |
bah, #1 slipped in.
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scg
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response 4 of 91:
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May 10 02:00 UTC 2000 |
WWNet's DSL is Northpoint, not Covad, but otherwise I think everything Jared
said is right.
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aruba
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response 5 of 91:
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May 10 15:02 UTC 2000 |
Our ISDN lines were installed in August and September of 1997, so it has
been almost 3 years that we have been getting service through Dorian. The
cost for installation at the time was $329.27 per line (we payed a total of
$658.54), once you add up all the different fees and taxes. I'm sure that
cost has come down, but I'm always skeptical when I hear a phone company
rate quoted, because what actually appears on the bill is always
significantly more, because of extra fees and taxes. (I spent about a month
in the summer of 1998 poring over Grex's phone bills and entering them into
a database so I could get the numbers straight.)
Our total cost per month for our two ISDN lines was $95.05 as of January
2000. (I'd have to get the recent bills from Greg to get an accurate number
for this month, but $95.05 is probably pretty close. It was between $93 and
$98 for all of 1999.)
So switching to a commercial internet provider would save us approximately
$47.50 per month in ISDN charges. If Jared's right that it would cost
$100-$250 per month, that would mean a significant increase in Grex's
monthly expenses.
I'd like to come to the meeting tonight, but I can't. It's too bad we
didn't get a little more warning.
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jared
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response 6 of 91:
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May 10 16:00 UTC 2000 |
dsl pricing (from voyager.net webpage)
144k $135/mo
192k $135/mo
384k $230/mo
768k $275/mo
1.1M $350/mo
Installation: Free
FlowPoint DSL Router $134 (with one year contract, after $225 rebate valid
through May 31, 2000)
http://home.voyager.net/web/business/dslmore.html
As I am employed by Voyager, I may be able to get a deal for Grex.
But those are our "list prices". The difference between 144k and 192k
is that some people don't qualify for 192k, and the dsl equipment for 144k
is more expensive.
Our dedicated ISDN costs about the same as DSL. Until you count
that you need an ISDN line. Then it costs more.
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janc
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response 7 of 91:
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May 10 16:14 UTC 2000 |
Steve mentioned in mail that 160K SDSL from WW-Net is $159 per month.
I just looked up the voyager.net prices on their web page, but Jared
slipped in with them.
Speed upgrades are simple. If we decided we wanted 384K service, we'd
just send voyager (for example) another $95 a month. No hardware
changes.
I think these prices include everything (expect perhaps taxes and what
not). If so, changing to SDSL would get us a network connection that is
half again faster, would cost an extra $40 a month (plus possible
mystery taxes and charges), would connect us to a real ISP
(theoretically more reliable, though it's hard to be any more reliable
than what we've had for the last few years), and would give us easier
upgrade options in the future.
This sounds like a good move to me.
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eeyore
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response 8 of 91:
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May 10 19:56 UTC 2000 |
It also sonds like Dorian might be moving in the next couple of years, so
wouldn't it just make more sense to move the line out of his place now, rather
than go through this again soon?
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jared
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response 9 of 91:
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May 10 21:09 UTC 2000 |
That's why I brought this issue up now, and am here to talk about it.
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janc
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response 10 of 91:
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May 11 04:58 UTC 2000 |
The board approved going forward with the DSL option. They didn't decide
which ISP to go with, but approved enough money to go with Voyager. Staff
has discretion to find our best deal.
I'm no expert at this stuff, but I did a bit of web searching to try to find
DSL prices. http://www.dslreports.com is a useful site for getting DSL
info, but it's listings of ISPs are not nearly complete.
I'm pretty sure that there are taxes that get added to the quoted prices.
It's important that we find out what they are, because I've seen some hints
that they may be substantial.
Some places give you only 1 IP-address. Steve says we need 16. Some charge
extra for those IP addresses, often a lot extra.
Some places give you a 'bridge', and some give you a 'router'. I don't
know for sure, but I suspect we want the router.
All prices quoted below are for 'business use'. Residential DSL is much
cheaper, but normally doesn't allow you to run any services on your machine
(so nobody can connect to your machine from outside) and have only dynamic
IP addresses. This is totally useless for Grex.
A lot of ISPs offer services like webspace on their server, and pop email
addreses on their server as part of the DSL contract. Apparantly they assume
we aren't capable of putting those services on our own machine. Actually,
web space would be useful - we could put things like backtalk buttons images
there, so they could be fetched more quickly and wouldn't have to go over
our net connection. Mostly this is worthless to us though. Maybe we
can get a price break if we clip that out of the contract? (Probably not,
these are not services it costs them anything to deliver.)
Here's the info on voyager.net again:
ISP Speed Monthly Setup Hardware
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
voyager.net 192K $135 FREE $134 (FlowPoint router)
(covad) 384K $230 FREE $134 (FlowPoint router)
768K $275 FREE $134 (FlowPoint router)
The following seem cheaper than voyager.net and appear to offer service in
our area. None are unambiguously better:
ISP Speed Monthly Setup
--------------------------------------------------------
bignet.net 192K $99.95 FREE/$120/$270
(covad) 384K $199.95 FREE/$120/$270
768K $249.95 FREE/$120/$270
First 3 months at 192K are $79.95.
Installation only free on 3 year contract, $120 on 2 year, $270 on one year.
Setup prices include a router, but they retain ownership of the router and
we have to promise not to fiddle with it.
ISP Speed Monthly Setup Hardware
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
speakeasy.net 192K $124.95+tax FREE $224 (Speedstream 5250 bridge)
(covad) 384K $169.95+tax FREE $224 (Speedstream 5250 bridge)
768K $249.95+tax FREE $224 (Speedstream 5250 bridge)
Call for Flowpoint 2200 router price. Probably around $600.
Additional IP addresses free up to 31 (need to show need to get more than
16). $1 per month extra for more than 32 IPs.
ISP Speed Monthly Setup Hardware
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
voicenet.com 192K $89? FREE? FREE?
384K $129? FREE? FREE?
Appears to be single IP address on bridge, but so cheap we could afford 384K.
ISP Speed Monthly Setup Hardware
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
exceptional.net 192K $119 FREE $395.00
They list a $30.61 "modem tax". Does this apply to other ISPs too?
ISP Speed Monthly Setup Hardware
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
psn.net 200K $119 FREE FREE (SpeedRunner 204?)
416K $169 FREE FREE (SpeedRunner 204?)
Includes only one IP address. Others are probably an extra charge, so it
is probably not a better deal.
I got prices from the following sites but they were all obviously more
expensive than voyager.net:
izap.net (looks cheap at first glance, but charges $55 a month for 16 ISPs)
wwnet.net
verio.net
surfersnet.com (laughably overpriced)
The following don't list prices on-line (ISPs afraid of the internet):
bullseyetelecom.com
homesinet.net
expressgate.net
enverce.net
The follwoing apparantly offers DSL in our area, but I couldn't access
their web sites with Linux Netscape or Lynx, because neither has flash
plug-in.
advdata.net
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scg
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response 11 of 91:
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May 11 06:32 UTC 2000 |
advdata.net was the other pricing I brought to the board meeting. I
apparrently didn't bring that piece of paper back home from the board meeting,
so I don't have that pricing anymore.
We do need a router, not a bridge.
From everything I've heard about them, we don't want to go with BigNet.
expressgate.net is a reseller of a reseller of one of the other ISPs on your
list.
I haven't heard of the other ISPs on your cheaper than Voyager list, which
makes me nervous about them.
Voyager is a reputable ISP that has been around for several years, and we know
they have at least one competent employee who has been really helpful to Grex
on Internet connectivity issues. Assuming there's nothing really scary in
their contract, my recommendation would be to go with them.
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jared
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response 12 of 91:
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May 11 19:59 UTC 2000 |
I have figured out who to talk to on the Voyager end.
I should be able to get some sort of discount...
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janc
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response 13 of 91:
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May 12 04:28 UTC 2000 |
The only one of those "cheaper" ISPs that actually looks tempting from the
data above is 'speakeasy.net'. Further browsing of their web site reveals
- they either spell worse than I do, or think bad spelling is cool.
Probably the latter. They definately think they are cool.
- they are in Seattle.
- the owner is Mike Apgar. Name seems familiar but I'm probably
imagining it.
- they started as an internet cafe in 1995, they are still in the cafe
business, doing movies, art shows, espresso, pastry, workshops and
internet terminals. They flirted with closing the cafe, but kept it
open by popular demand. It apparantly isn't profitable.
- they claim to have 50 employees. Some are presumably cooks and waiters.
- they started doing dialup IP in late 1997, DSL in early 1999, went
national in late 1999.
- they claim 5,000 members as of July 1999.
- they are not Linux-hostile.
- they are spam-hostile.
It doesn't really sound like a big name ISP, but browsing through their web
site does make one feel they are at least slightly Grexian (is this a
virtue?). If you don't believe me, check out their original mission
statement:
January 1, 1995
The Speakeasy Cafe is the first in a series of Cafes that will provide a
unique forum for communication and entertainment through the
medium of the Internet. The idea of computers in a cafe is one possible
answer to increasingly pressing questions: How to provide the general
public access to the methods of communication and volumes of
information now available on the Internet, at a cost they can afford and
in such a way that they aren't socially, economically, or politically
isolated. The goal is to provide a service that is not simply entertaining,
but educational, enlightening, and most of all empowering.
The Speakeasy Cafe in Downtown Seattle is the first step in a network
of cafes in the Puget Sound Region and around the world which will
bring new definitions to our idea of community. Rather than simply
embracing the technology, we will seek to utilize and define avenues
by which every individual will benefit. Through completely new
concepts and designs in user interface and open platforms we will
enable anyone the ability to navigate the Internet, what is soon to be
the nexus for communication, information and commerce. The
Speakeasy Cafe will bring us closer to "open-access" than any other
medium to date.
As our world becomes more complex, crowded and antagonistic, it
becomes increasingly necessary for people with diverse interests and
backgrounds to gather, recognize our common humanity and
communicate with one another. The Speakeasy Cafe, in concert with
the Internet, is that place!
They are only $10 a month cheaper than voyager, but seem worthy of
consideration.
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eeyore
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response 14 of 91:
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May 12 04:48 UTC 2000 |
Actually, Jan, the name Mike Apgar sounds familiar to me too....and since I
pretty much know NOBODY in the computer world....
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scg
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response 15 of 91:
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May 12 05:21 UTC 2000 |
Speakeasy, or at least the part of their network with the webserver on it,
appears to be single homed through InterNAP. InterNAP is good, but still
somebody trying to be a big National DSL provider without redundancy makes
me scared.
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jared
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response 16 of 91:
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May 12 05:40 UTC 2000 |
Voyager.net has peering at AADS with various providers (can not
be disclosed). Voyager has the following upstreams: uunet, c&w, verio,
nap.net, and twtelecom.net. we also peer with merit in flint. all our
michigan dsl is aggregated into flint, which is a ds3 connected pop.
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mdw
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response 17 of 91:
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May 12 21:13 UTC 2000 |
Oh yes, I remember speakeasy cafe - that's where sigterm, who filled up
/tmp and tried to fill /c originated from.
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janc
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response 18 of 91:
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May 13 01:14 UTC 2000 |
Well, we're probably remembered by many people as the place where some
hacker originated from too.
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other
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response 19 of 91:
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May 13 02:28 UTC 2000 |
I have in front of me a business card from the Speakeasy Cafe "Information
Trading Post" in Seattle. The name on the card is Tyler Apgar.
Coincidentally, this cafe was the first place I ever encountered Grex's telnet
queue, and I had no idea at the time what it was. All I saw was a very slow
counting down on the screen, with no message.
The card was given me by a friend of a friend, an employee of the Cafe named
Sarel Rowe. At the time, their domain was speakeasy.org.
I remember it being a very cool place, but perhaps it has changed since July
1996.
It was also the first time I had encountered the concept of an internet cafe.
The address on the card is:
2304 2nd Ave.
Seattle, WA 981211
The phone numbers are:
206.728.9770 phone
206.728.2172 fax
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scg
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response 20 of 91:
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May 13 03:11 UTC 2000 |
Unfortunately, while it may well be a very good cafe, with nice people, and
a "grexian" philosophy, what really matters here is who is running the best
network, and will give us the best network connectivity and support.
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janc
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response 21 of 91:
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May 13 05:02 UTC 2000 |
True, though saving $10 a month is worth considering too.
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hhsrat
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response 22 of 91:
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May 13 18:23 UTC 2000 |
Speakeasy.net was mentioned a few times on the WLUG mailing list, as a
Linux-friendly DSL provider. I seem to remember a few people that were
happy with their service, although I may be mis-remembering.
I know Ameritech offers DSL in the A2 area, but I would not recommend
Ameritech at all. Notoriously bad for customer support, and when I used
their DSL network (beta site) it got incredibly slow and/or crashed at
times, with nobody at the tech support number knowing what was wrong.
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scg
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response 23 of 91:
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May 13 19:41 UTC 2000 |
"Linux friendly" is a strange term when it comes to DSL connectivity. I
suspect it's a nice marketing buzz word, rather than anything else.
When you get a DSL connection, you get the DSL line going into a bridge or
router. For what Grex is doing with it, it should be a router. The bridge
or router has an ethernet port on it, which you plug your computer or, in
Grex's case, network into. At that point, your DSL connection is perfectly
friendly to anything that will do IP over ethernet. I'm not aware of any
modern operating systems that won't.
It could also be referring to their technical support, but the IP
configuration on SunOS is significantly different from on teh Linux versions
I've dealt with, so that won't help Grex any.
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richard
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response 24 of 91:
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May 13 20:42 UTC 2000 |
wouldnt it be safer to go with a known commodity like ameritech rather
than a company you know little about?
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