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other
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New item hide and seek
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Feb 9 22:03 UTC 2000 |
This is not a new topic, but every time I join a new conference or a
rollover, I am only informed of the existence of two items. I know this
practice was instituted so as to avoid overwhelming those joining an
existing item, but I would like to discuss the possibility of either
reverting to "full disclosure" or of the technical feasibility of giving
users the choice.
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| 49 responses total. |
other
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response 1 of 49:
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Feb 9 22:05 UTC 2000 |
err, change "item" at the beginning of line four to "conference".
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don
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response 2 of 49:
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Feb 10 00:28 UTC 2000 |
I'd like to see something like this too. Maybe a "fixnew" command to
complement fixseen so that everything will be marked new.
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mdw
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response 3 of 49:
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Feb 10 06:02 UTC 2000 |
Why not use "read all"?
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krj
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response 4 of 49:
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Feb 10 06:08 UTC 2000 |
or "read since mm/dd", which is a favorite of mine.
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remmers
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response 5 of 49:
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Feb 10 11:09 UTC 2000 |
Right. In Picospan, there are various forms of "read" command that give
users a choice. I also like "read since -n", which shows everything
that's new in the last n days.
Users have to do a bit of digging to find out what the choices are, but
that kind of goes with the territory when you offer a flexible command
line interface such as Picospan with lots of options.
In Backtalk, the fairwitness can configure what items are treated as
"new" the first time a user joins a conference.
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tpryan
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response 6 of 49:
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Feb 10 23:33 UTC 2000 |
It would be nice if the system could figure out about the
last 5000 words (or 500 lines) and set up a 'read since' for that
time back. That way, a new .cf joined would show about 20 screens
of text and hopefully cover more that two items.
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don
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response 7 of 49:
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Feb 11 03:27 UTC 2000 |
I think that there should be a way to mark everything as new. Many times when
I start looking at a conference there is too much stuff to read at one
sitting, but I do want to keep tabs on activity. Trashing the participation
file doesn't work.
I guess it's the idea that items you haven't read shouldn't be marked read
unless *you* choose it to be like that.
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mdw
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response 8 of 49:
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Feb 11 03:51 UTC 2000 |
The middle items in a conference you join aren't marked as "seen", they
are marked as "unseen". "read unseen" will show them all to you.
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other
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response 9 of 49:
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Feb 11 08:45 UTC 2000 |
it's not that i can't read them, just that when i enter a new conference, i
want to see:
155 newresponse items
First item 1, last 155
if there's 155 items.
iit's not a big deal. i just want the feel of using bbs to be consistent in
that regard whether i'm new in the conf or not. it just irks me, that's all.
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remmers
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response 10 of 49:
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Feb 11 13:31 UTC 2000 |
I don't think it's inconsistent, but perhaps it's a bit
obscure as to what's going on. The concept of "unseen"
items is useful, but Picospan's messages don't tell you
about them.
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janc
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response 11 of 49:
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Feb 11 19:16 UTC 2000 |
Hmmm...here's a deeply awful way to make Backtalk-style new-item
configuration work in Picospan:
- Write 'awfulprog' a program which given the name of two
conferences, checks if you have a participation file for the first
one that was created within the last 10 seconds and that you have
no participation file for the second one. If so, it generates a
participation file for the second conference with using Backtalk's
new-user algorithm.
- Rename 'agora' as 'realagora'.
- Create a new conference named 'agora' which contains no items,
allows no item entry, has a blank login and logout files, and has a
conference rc file that looks like this:
unix "awfulprog agora realagora"
join realagora
When a newuser does "join agora" or "bbs agora" Picospan asks them if
they want to join, observer or quit. If they say join, it creates a
participation file for them. Then it runs the rc file which runs
awfulprog. It would be useless for awfulprog to change the current
conference's participation file, because Picospan already has it in
memory, so the changes to the file would have no effect and just be
overwritten when you leave the conference. So instead, it notices that
there is a .agora.cf and it is new, and there is no .realagora.cf so it
creates a new .realagora.cf. The rc file then does "join realagora".
Picospan sees the .realagora.cf file, and happily loads it.
Joining as an observer doesn't work completely right. awfulprog sees no
.agora.cf, so it doesn't create a .realagora.cf, so when the "join
realagora" is executed you get asked again. If you say "observe" again,
then all works well. If you say "join" the second time, you get a
standard Picospan participation file. Slightly flakey things may also
happen if you rejoin after resigning.
People who have "set nosource" set in their .cfonce files won't get
shunted from agora to realagora. They'll just land in the empty agora
conference. They'll have to join realagora manually and live with the
Picospan-generated participation file. However they are probably
sophisticated enough to deal with this.
This proposal should be viewed as 'an exercise in creative kludgery' not
as 'a good idea.' It could probably be improved a bit, and it probably
causes some other horrid side effects that I hadn't thought of, like
breaking the 'check' command.
The alternatives are (1) convince Marcus to change Picospan, or (2)
convert to Yapp, which anyone can customize.
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gypsi
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response 12 of 49:
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Feb 11 19:38 UTC 2000 |
Wow...I was lost by the third paragraph, but it sounds interesting. =)
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pfv
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response 13 of 49:
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Feb 12 03:59 UTC 2000 |
Sounds ugly as hell, is what it sounds like.
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other
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response 14 of 49:
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Feb 12 05:26 UTC 2000 |
i was under the impression that the number of items
displayed as new when newly joining an active conf
was an option which could be set by system configuration
or adjusted by fairwitnesses. i guess what i'd like
as a compromise is to have the option turned off in
conferences other than agora, recognizing that agora
is the default conference for new users, the ones most
likely to be overwhelmed by a huge list of items.
by the time a user makes it into another conference,
it seems to me that that protective measure is of
greater annoyance than value.
i would argue that what is likely to be most of
concern to a new user would be the arcane command
structure of the unix command-line interface, and
not the sheer volume of material contained in any
particular conference. in fact, i would suggest
that presenting a user with the full extent of a
conference's content on first arrival would support
the notion that the conferences are an extensive
and important part of the grex experience and would
have a generally more positive than negative impact.
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mary
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response 15 of 49:
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Feb 12 12:31 UTC 2000 |
I agree with Eric.
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prp
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response 16 of 49:
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Feb 12 17:15 UTC 2000 |
How about just changing the wellcome message from:
2 new items.
First item is 1 and last is 145.
to:
2 new and 143 unseen items.
First item is 1 and last is 145.
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prp
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response 17 of 49:
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Feb 12 17:25 UTC 2000 |
As for helping new users, the help file could be improved. Or maybe intro
could be restarted.
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pfv
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response 18 of 49:
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Feb 12 17:52 UTC 2000 |
The help docs truly reek.. Fixing that makes the rest nearly
tolerable.
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orinoco
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response 19 of 49:
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Feb 12 19:32 UTC 2000 |
Personally, I would find "2 new and 143 unseen items" more confusing than just
"2 new items." The distinction between 'new' and 'unseen' is a useful one
in terms of getting Picospan to do what you want, but not a terribly intuitive
one.
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gull
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response 20 of 49:
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Feb 13 03:37 UTC 2000 |
Re #14: I thought that was true only in Backtalk. We can't really modify
Picospan's behaviour because we don't have the source code. We just license
it from another company.
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janc
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response 21 of 49:
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Feb 13 06:10 UTC 2000 |
Well, Marcus wrote Picospan, sold it to another company, which then went
thoroughly and completely out of business. Marcus has source code, but
who exactly owns it is a question beyond my comprehension.
This is currenlty configurable only for Backtalk users.
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pfv
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response 22 of 49:
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Feb 13 06:29 UTC 2000 |
I was under the impression BT also had a "back-end" it could
employ..
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spooked
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response 23 of 49:
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Feb 13 11:19 UTC 2000 |
I'm thinking, would anyone want to write a more user friendly interface (less
advanced) interface for new users -- might attract them, or certainly not
sitract them away from the conferences.
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spooked
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response 24 of 49:
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Feb 13 11:20 UTC 2000 |
distract, sorry.
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