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| Author |
Message |
prp
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The Proposed Decorum
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Jan 25 21:36 UTC 2000 |
Ideally I would start with extracts from item 152, but I'm stuck using
MS Telnet, so I won't try anything fancy.
In any case this item is designed to take over discussion of the
proposed Decorum conference.
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| 120 responses total. |
cmcgee
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response 1 of 120:
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Jan 25 23:05 UTC 2000 |
See my entry earlier. The Intro Conference was designed to help newcomers
learn about conferencing; shield them from the "too massive" Agora problem;
link interesting items so they would be intrigued enough to visit other
conferences; keep them from getting lost in dead conferences.
It might be instructive to answer two questions: Why did Intro die? How will
this be any different?
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orinoco
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response 2 of 120:
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Jan 26 02:29 UTC 2000 |
(And actually, I hope those don't get treated as rhetorical questions....I
didn't pay much attention to intro, but it sounded like a good idea at the
time, and I'd like to hear "what went wrong" from someone who was paying
attention.)
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don
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response 3 of 120:
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Jan 26 02:43 UTC 2000 |
It looked like it suffered the fate of most other conferences here;
centralization around agora. I think someone even mentioned it somewhere in
agora.
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don
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response 4 of 120:
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Jan 26 02:43 UTC 2000 |
(err, someone mentioned it in intro)
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flem
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response 5 of 120:
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Jan 26 20:04 UTC 2000 |
I'm still a bit confused as to the point of the proposed Decorum conf.
Is it to have a smaller, "moderated" version of Agora? If so, see
comments about Intro. Is it to have a conf where people are polite and
don't use dirty words? If so, what for?
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prp
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response 6 of 120:
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Jan 26 21:26 UTC 2000 |
Re 5 (flem): "If so, what for?" If you have to ask, you wouldn't
understand the answer.
re intro: It's not dead. There were 21 items with responses in
1999, 15 in the last three quarters, 13 in the last half, and
6 in the last quarter. I could never figure out why there are
both Intro and Info. Maybe they should be merged and restarted.
In any case I don't see Decorum as just for new users. Some people
hate rules of order; others love them for the rules. With luck
Decorum would appeal to neither of those groups, but rather to
those who like rules of order for the order. This group is
undoubtedly a minority on Grex, but they do exist here.
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aruba
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response 7 of 120:
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Jan 26 21:29 UTC 2000 |
Huh? I'm sorry, I don't get it. I haven't kept up with the item where this
idea was first proposed. Since this is the "official" proposal item, could
someone summarize what's going on?
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flem
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response 8 of 120:
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Jan 26 21:40 UTC 2000 |
re resp:6 - If I wouldn't understand the answer, perhaps that reveals
more about the answer than about me.
As for rules and order... Well, perhaps
http://www.theonion.com/onion3547/roberts_rules_of_order.html
says it better than I can.
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prp
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response 9 of 120:
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Jan 26 21:43 UTC 2000 |
See 152/25-26,34-36,40-45 and to a lesser extent 12,19,33.
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prp
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response 10 of 120:
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Jan 26 21:45 UTC 2000 |
9 is for 7 (aruba).
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don
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response 11 of 120:
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Jan 26 22:30 UTC 2000 |
That Onion article was ridiculous and just plain uninformed. Motioning to open
the window would have required a point of personal privilege, not a motion
to suspend the buisiness! And even if that motion was in order, it would have
had to come after the presiding officer had decided to yield to the
discression of the body the question of the point of personal privilege.
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scott
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response 12 of 120:
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Jan 27 02:05 UTC 2000 |
For those who don't feel up to excavating the Intro conference, here's a
capsule history:
1. Robh proposes and starts the Intro conference. Goal: Avoid excess of
Agora, provide neat items from other conferences.
2. Robh does a great job FWing conferencing, finding many neat items in even
the most obscure conferences to link to Intro.
3. Here I'm a bit lost in memory. Was Intro actually the default new user
conference fora while? I think so.
4. Anonymous Web reading of conferences issue hits the fan. Robh decides
he doesn't want this, pulls out of any leadership roles on Grex.
5. Intro conference dies because of robh's absence.
Kind of sad, but a good commentary on depending on any one user to maintain
an "ideal" conference. The Intro conference was very cool, but it obviously
took some work to maintain. Grex being what it is, the person who did that
work wasn't obligated to stick around, and eventually left.
Beyond that, I don't really see how the FW of a Decorum conference is going
to be very effective. Given that FWs on Grex can't censor
(expurgate/scribble) individual responses, some annoying punk could easily
poison each item by putting in some obnoxious response.
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cmcgee
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response 13 of 120:
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Jan 27 02:45 UTC 2000 |
I had Intro on my .cf list. As I recall, newusers were given a choice of
having either Agora or Intro their default conference for a while. That
was changed when Robh quit actively FWing Intro and none of us picked up
the task.
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aruba
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response 14 of 120:
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Jan 27 03:34 UTC 2000 |
Right - giving people a choice of default conferences when they created an
account was as far as we ever went toward making it the default.
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mary
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response 15 of 120:
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Jan 27 12:55 UTC 2000 |
I'm really happy fairwitnessses can't censor individual responses. That
should only be in the most extreme of circumstances, under firm guidelines,
with the person knowing his/her actions will probably meet with open and
critical discussion.
Instead of trying to present people with clean and perfect items,
protecting them as some might a small child, why not instead make sure
each person knows how they can customize content to meet *their*
standards. You can filter individuals who swear. You can forget items
with discussions that offend you. Of course, this puts some
responsibility on the user, but that's just dandy.
If you want to mother people have your own children and good luck with the
project. But here, don't assume your standards will work for everyone.
They won't, thank heavens.
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pfv
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response 16 of 120:
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Jan 27 15:17 UTC 2000 |
As far as screen-customization/layout, .cfonce is known to me..
Where/what/how is the "filter" occasionally mentioned?
(one more tidbit I can pass along to those in need.)
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remmers
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response 17 of 120:
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Jan 27 21:24 UTC 2000 |
It's called "twit". There may or may not be documentation anywhere.
Works only via Picospan, not Backtalk.
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prp
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response 18 of 120:
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Jan 27 21:48 UTC 2000 |
re 15 mary:
I realize many people like Agora just the way it is. You should
realize that many people don't.
I also realize some people are so deeply offended by censorship that
they also oppose anything which might possible be related, even though
it is not. There are also many people who are deeply offended by
the existence of the GLB conference. The Grex version of political
correctness applies here.
What do you tell people offended by GLB? Don't join.
What will we tell people offended by the idea of standards? Don't
join Decorum.
How would you feel about free speech if I showed up at the next BOD
meeting with a pipe band and had them rehearse?
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prp
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response 19 of 120:
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Jan 27 21:56 UTC 2000 |
An alternative to Cutting.room.floor would be to use Agora. I don't
think I have a preference.
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keesan
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response 20 of 120:
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Jan 27 22:27 UTC 2000 |
What is a pipe band? Does it speak?
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aruba
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response 21 of 120:
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Jan 27 22:55 UTC 2000 |
I'm with Mary 100% on this one. Paul, if you want to create a conference
where fairwitnesses can censor responses, you will need to call for a member
vote to change the longstanding policy disallowing such censorship on Grex.
If you want an idea of how that will be received, look through old coops for
the discussion about creating the "sympathy" conference. User sidhe wanted
the same thing for that conference, and abandoned the idea when he couldn't
have it.
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orinoco
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response 22 of 120:
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Jan 27 23:44 UTC 2000 |
Look at it this way. Grex never has had a policy, official or unofficial,
against the existance of a GLB conference. Grex has always taken a pretty
strong stance against censorship, though, so a censored conference would
represent a pretty significant change in Grex itself, which for many of us
couldn't be sidestepped by just avoiding the conference.
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scg
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response 23 of 120:
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Jan 27 23:56 UTC 2000 |
I haven't read through the bylaws lately, but I'm guessing that policy could
be modified by the board as well, if the board were willing to do it. I'm
not saying the board would do it. If I were still on the board, I would vote
against such a policy change (as I also would in a membership vote on the
subject).
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mdw
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response 24 of 120:
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Jan 28 01:04 UTC 2000 |
Censorship and moderation works in usenet groups, because there's an
extremely large user population, that's not very cohesive, and there is
enough of a noise problem that it is easy to justify and excuse such
extreme acts.
Censorship (& moderation) don't make much sense with small groups
(100-200 people). You're dealing with a much smaller and more cohesive
group, there is not nearly as much of a noise problem, and peer pressure
in general works and is obviously seen to work to deal with most
problems. The actual effect of censorship in such groups is *very*
pronounced, and generally extremely negative. The result is you have a
dead conference, which nobody wants to participate in.
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