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Grex > Coop11 > #140: Grex in the new millenium-- should it be web based? | |
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richard
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Grex in the new millenium-- should it be web based?
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Nov 30 23:53 UTC 1999 |
As Grex enters the new millenium, the question becomes whether it should
reinvent itself to be better positioned in the coming age.
Specifically, the generations of new users coming along who will provide
grex's revenue base in the next millenium, will be younger users who wont
dialin and wont telnet. They are not going to fully participate in Grex
unless it is completely web based.
Grex has proven itself as a unix board, but the next step to ensure
prosperous survival, is clearly for Grex to move toward being much more
web based than it is now. There should be a point IMO where there are few
if any applications on Grex that cannot be done via the web.
Thanks to Backtalk, Grex has taken the first stop and has its conferencing
web accessible. The next step could be to offer, as member-only perk at
this point, web based email. Also a web based party channel would serve
as a terrific way to attract users to the site.
Since Grex has a significant amount of money in the bank now, wouldnt it
be a good idea to think about reinventing itself and upgrading its web
capabilities. Perhaps the time has come to consider cutting back and
eventually all but eliminating dialins, so the funds can be applied to
upgrading the ISP and adding more web functionality.
If you look at grex as a unix board, it is a reminder of a bygone era
now-- the question is whether grex wants to be relevant in the new
millenium.
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| 91 responses total. |
sarrica
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response 1 of 91:
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Dec 1 00:24 UTC 1999 |
I think this is a perfectly sensible direction to head in provided that
we don't lose the dial-in/telnet/command line abilities along the way.
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flem
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response 2 of 91:
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Dec 1 02:43 UTC 1999 |
I can't help but find myself grimacing at the notion of Grex
"reinventing" itself. The point of moving towards a wider user base and
becoming more web-accessible, as I see it, is to provide easier access
for more people to what we already have, not to change what we're doing
in any fundamental way.
What Grex does is provide a free, uncensored medium for communication
of ideas. This is something that, no matter what technology does, isn't
likely to become irrelevant any time soon. The people here, and their
opinions, are not going to become any less relevant if the staff and
budget can't quite keep pace with the technology curve.
Web based email and Web based party channels were both discussed, at
least briefly, and the FOG meeting a week or so ago. (By the way,
wasn't there going to be an item about that? Did I miss it somehow?)
IIRC, the staff members present were not at all excited about the idea
of free web email. No one mentioned members-only web email, but I
suspect that this won't be a very popular idea. Web party channels are
more technically feasible, but still present some real issues, both
technical and administrative.
And finally, it's still a bit premature to be talking about Grex in the
next millennium: it's over a year away. <ducks> :)
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gull
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response 3 of 91:
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Dec 1 04:48 UTC 1999 |
My main reservation is this: Look at how swamped hotmail.com and services
like them are. I'm not sure we can *afford* to become a free email service.
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gelinas
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response 4 of 91:
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Dec 1 05:24 UTC 1999 |
Have I mentioned lately that I hate the web?
As an information source, the World-wide Web is wonderful. As a hypertext
document, there is nothing better. As a replacement for all the other
services provided by the Internet, it sucks; that's not what it's good for.
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scg
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response 5 of 91:
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Dec 1 06:02 UTC 1999 |
Grex already has web interfaces to a bunch of stuff, including the
conferences. In the sense of being a conferencing system and trying to draw
in a wide variety of people, the web interface is probably a good idea, but
it exists. It does have its drawbacks. tel and so forth don't work. To
enable them would basically put us in competition with ICQ and AIM, and might
not be so advisable, but I wonder if not having them detracts from the sense
of community. It certainly would have detracted from my teenage social life,
when I met a lot of cool people by sending random tels, but it may be that
Grex is big enough at this point that random tels aren't aren't appreciated
by those logged in either.
There's another important point to consider here, which is that despite what
you read in the newspapers, not everything on the Internet is web based. In
particular, well designed administrative interfaces for servers, routers, and
the like, generally tend to be command line based, either running Unix or some
similar interface. There are a lot of us around here, or formally around
here, who got into that sort of computer networking stuff by poking around
on Grex, learned an incredible amount here, and then turned that knowledge
into computer or networking carreers. Perhaps that's just generally less
likely to happen at this point, if we buy the argument that the kids are all
using web interfaces anyway, but that sort of learning certainly isn't going
to happen if the computer system is hidden behind a web interface. Since I
regard that sort of learning experience as an important part of what Grex is,
it's certainly a feature I would hate to lose.
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richard
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response 6 of 91:
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Dec 1 15:41 UTC 1999 |
The point isnt what the web is now, the point is what it is going to be
in the future. It is where the user base is going to be. Just because
Grex is financially stable now doesnt mean it will be down the road-- it
needs to ensure that it will attract new generations of users. And
those users will be young people who wont know much of an online world
beyond the web. Whether thats good or bad is besides the point. It
will be the reality.
Grex needs to upgrade its web functionality, and logic would indicate
that the way to afford to do this is to phase out the dialins and apply
the money spent on those to paying for a better ISP deal that would
allow for more bandwidth. In the current environment, and considering
what the future environment will be, how can Grex grow otherwise?
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pfv
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response 7 of 91:
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Dec 1 15:52 UTC 1999 |
I think, what you are missing folks is this: systems like Grex and
Mnut are still esstentially a "local community", and that - not
just 'bbs' or even 'party', and certainly not 'talk'.
The users, by and large, are folks you have met; or friends of
friends; or you have survived a long & sometimes tedious
"apprenticeship" in etiquette (sic?) - resulting in a person that
isn't immediately despicable, (or if they are, the cliques vary).
The amount of use - and that "use" is a big argument - seems
directly proportional to the user-'locale', and even the 'locale'
adjusts some: as folks move..
Beyond the idea of "FOG" - related to policies.. "FOG" should also
be concerned with hardware and software issues. Failure to review
and even update all three issues will ultimately mean the stagnant
death of grex at some point. It would mean the death of _any_
organism, even a "nice" organism.. Even a "nice" organism with a
LOT of "supporting & beneficial parasites - or symbiots".
BackTalk, neat though it is, is a single evolutionary step.. Not
for the world, mind you.. just for this organism. (btw, since the
advent of BT, have donations or memberships changed markedly?)
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pfv
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response 8 of 91:
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Dec 1 15:55 UTC 1999 |
richard slipped in there..
I'm not sure Grex is slated to "grow" in the sense Richie seems to
view.. Not sure it should, but that's the baliwick of you folks.
I'm beginning to believe it's an issue requiring resolution,
though.. SOME set of evolutionary views, paths and goals need to
be examined, determined and targetted for implementation.
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orinoco
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response 9 of 91:
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Dec 1 15:58 UTC 1999 |
One thing the web is very good for is hopping from one service to another very
quickly. We could use that to our advantage if we gave people more reason
to hop to grex: imagine, for instance, if the cooking conference posted a
recipe archive on the web with a link that says "for discussion of recipes,
click here" - that could well bring in some extra users.
The disadvantage of trying to attract users over the web is that, since you
can hop from one service to another easily, the web fosters a short attention
span. I, and most people I know, have no "brand loyalty" when it comes to
web-based services. I know there was a lot of discussion on this one when
Backtalk was first being installed - did anyone ever collect any data on
whether web users are more likely or less likely to stick around?
If mere growth is the idea, then yeah, the web is probably a great way to go.
But my impression is that most grexers would rather see one new user who
sticks around, posts in the conferences, and becomes a member, than ten new
users who wander in over the web and lose interest.
Of course, this may well change as the web becomes less of a novelty - the
short attention span bit, I mean. Already, people probably have more of an
attention span on the web than they once did.
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orinoco
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response 10 of 91:
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Dec 1 15:59 UTC 1999 |
Woop....both of pfv's responses slipped in. Busy item.
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pfv
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response 11 of 91:
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Dec 1 16:05 UTC 1999 |
Yeah, "attention span" is a really valid point with "newbies",
and I include my own folks in that group.
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flem
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response 12 of 91:
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Dec 1 18:24 UTC 1999 |
More bandwidth is certainly a reasonable goal for Grex to have, but one
of the nice things about Grex is that it has never forced users to move
forward with technology. It's just as easy to connect to Grex with a
4800 baud modem and Procomm today as it was five years ago. I, for one,
think this is one of the charms of Grex, and I'd like to see it stay
that way.
Bandwidth is something that is and will continue to be a hot topic on
Grex for the foreseeable future. Grex may have money in the bank, but
not the kind of money that would buy us the bandwidth we really need.
The economics of more bandwidth have been discussed at length elsewhere
in this conference.
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pfv
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response 13 of 91:
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Dec 1 18:28 UTC 1999 |
I'm not sure "Grex modems" is much of an issue, or even "an
issue". As long as someone wants to pay for them <shrug>
downshifting isn't a problem.
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flem
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response 14 of 91:
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Dec 1 18:43 UTC 1999 |
No, I don't really think it's an issue either, I was just responding to
the suggestion that we should ditch our dialins to fund more internet
bandwidth.
Basically, I don't think we should ditch any of our existing services.
If, in order to add new services, we have to drop some of our current
services, we really shouldn't be adding new services. That's my only
real point. :)
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pfv
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response 15 of 91:
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Dec 1 19:00 UTC 1999 |
Yah.. If it worked out that:
"we will be eliminating all dialins that are not affordable."
Then, I suspect not only a hue & cry they could hear in Seattle,
but also some "agressive posturing" - and then some set of folks
would "rescue" the dialins with direct-donations (which are ALWAYS
viable anyway).
However, financially, Grex always seems to float just fine.. SOO,
the issues are other than the "connectivity" for now.
It would help, I suppose, if we had an idea of the users, app,
"clock-cycles" (or whatever) they require, and the bandwidth.
Typically, Grex is fairly "sprightly" to me.. Until verio.net acts
up - and that's becoming a frequent event. Given what we have and
how it uses system & bandwidth, perhaps it would yield a basis to
work from or on.
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other
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response 16 of 91:
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Dec 1 19:54 UTC 1999 |
The point that richard seems to mi8ss completely is that one of the
more central functions of grex is to provide a service to people
who might not otherwise have access to it, or wish to commit
resources to it because they're still not comfortable with it.
eliminating the dial-ins completely cuts off those people who do
not already have an ISP through which to access grex. you do not
have to pay anything except the cost of a phone call to use the
services grex offers. what possible motivation could there be
for us to abandon that?
grex is not a "growing" system in the way that a business must grow
in order to remain viable. we are a community, and we will remain
viable so long as the cost of the technology to sustain grex stays
within the means of its membership. our foremost goal is not and must
not be to attract the greatest number of people to us. we simply
cannot do it.
i think our goal is to continue to serve the community in the ways
scg mentions and in the ways flem mentions. it ain't broke, and it
doesn't look like it's going to break soon, so what exactly would we
be trying to fix by doing this?
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pfv
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response 17 of 91:
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Dec 1 20:04 UTC 1999 |
Umm.. I got twisted up there..
Is grex a "local bbs", a "community with a web-presence" or an
electronic form of "social services"?
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other
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response 18 of 91:
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Dec 1 20:06 UTC 1999 |
all of the above, to some extent. and more...
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pfv
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response 19 of 91:
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Dec 1 20:09 UTC 1999 |
ohhh. kay.. Maybe someone can write a nice, list-type post
of wtf we have *now*.. Because, it's sorta' confuzzling if we
can't at least agree on where we ARE, let alone where we might
like to be/go..
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other
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response 20 of 91:
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Dec 1 20:35 UTC 1999 |
you can find such a 'list' if you will, in items 1 and 2 of this conference.
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don
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response 21 of 91:
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Dec 1 21:30 UTC 1999 |
I don't think having an exclusively webbed interface would attract the same
"kind" of people. Had Grex been just on the web when I found it, I wouldn't
have given it a second glance. I came here after searching through the web,
looking for a place to play nethack over a network. NH drew me in, then having
free and (mostly) unrestircted shell access piqued my interest. I lurked a
bit in bbs and party, then started talking in party and becoming active in
bbs. In contrast, I don't use any of the web-based chatrooms, IRC, or message
boards.
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remmers
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response 22 of 91:
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Dec 1 21:45 UTC 1999 |
Don's story is essentially the same as that of many, many users who were
first attracted to Grex by some non-conferencing service we offered,
then gradually got drawn into conferencing.
That's essentially how I was drawn into computer conferencing, as a
matter of fact. This was in the mid-1980's, on M-Net, long before Grex
existed. (In my case, it was the access to a C compiler.)
Don is a fairly new user. It's interesting to know that in this era of
the web, people are still attracted by the "full-service" aspects of
Grex, which a purely web-based system couldn't provide but for which
telnet is ideally suited. Perhaps this is a niche which is not only
non-obsolete but which folks will continue to find to be an attractive
alternative to the web.
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richard
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response 23 of 91:
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Dec 1 22:18 UTC 1999 |
I disagree that grex shouldnt be trying to grow-- grex is about the
conferences, so look around. With the exception of Agora and the sex
conf and here, there is very little activity. Grex is a wasteland of
inactive or dead confs.
The only way to change that is to attract more people, and if grex isnt
attracting more people rightnow, then logic dictates that grex itself
needs to change.
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orinoco
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response 24 of 91:
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Dec 1 23:37 UTC 1999 |
The solution to the dead conferences isn't necessary to pull in new members.
Grex's membership has grown hugely in the past few years, and conference
activity has declined. The solution would be to entice the members we have
to wander out of Agora a little more. If everyone who complains about the
dead conferences would just go out and post a few things instead, - that's
what would revive the bbs.
As I said before, one active posting member is more valuable than any number
of one-time visitors, and that's where our focus should stay.
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