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nephi
Same Sex Marriage in Kansas??? Mark Unseen   Mar 25 20:59 UTC 2002

Here's a curious article from salon.com regarding the legalization of
same-sex marriage for gay transsexuals by the Kansas Supreme Court.  

The URI is:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/03/22/kansas_ruling/print.html

I'm curious to see what people here think about this.  

(For those who can't follow the link, or would rather not, I'll see if I
can paste the text into response #1.)

187 responses total.
nephi
response 1 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 25 21:00 UTC 2002

SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, WITH A TWIST

The Kansas Supreme Court enforces a ban on gay marriage and clears the
way for -- gay marriage.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David Link

March 22, 2002  |  Let's face it, the subject of same-sex marriage tends
to unhinge rational debate. Otherwise sensible people scramble for
arguments to defend exclusionary marriage laws that barely stand up to
even modest scrutiny. The two state supreme courts that have tried to
sort through the mess and directly address the question -- Hawaii's and
Vermont's -- failed to find any reasoned case to defend
opposite-sex-only marriage. But when the issue was bounced back to the
legislative process, common sense again got short shrift. Hawaii's
voters took the extraordinary step of amending their state constitution
to require inequality. Vermont's legislature created a parallel
institution called "civil unions" to confer the rights and
responsibilities of marriage on same-sex couples, but refused to call
what walks, looks and swims like a duck a duck.

But when it comes to dysfunctional reasoning, the citizens of Vermont
and Hawaii have to take a backseat to the Kansas Supreme Court, which
has weighed in with what qualifies as a genuine first: a decision meant
to enforce a ban on same-sex marriage that actually clears the way for
same-sex marriage, as long as the union involves a gay transsexual. In
dealing with the case of a male-to-female transsexual who married the
man she loved, the court attempted to figure out whether the transsexual
was a male or a female. In the process, the justices tripped over the
state's ban on same-sex marriage and stumbled into the dilemma that's at
the heart of current marriage laws.

Best to begin at the beginning. The basic facts of "In re Estate of
Gardiner" are conventional enough to be almost archetypal: A young woman
meets an older, wealthier man, and four months later they get married.
The following year, the man dies, and his estranged son, who's out of
the will, challenges the marriage. It all winds up in court.

The twist, and it's a good one, is that the son challenged the marriage
as illegal because it was between members of the same sex, which is not
permitted under Kansas law. It turns out that the wife, J'Noel, had been
born a male, and four years prior to the marriage had undergone a
complete sex change operation. It had taken her three years of surgical,
psychological and pharmaceutical procedures to change her gender.

The final step in J'Noel's sex change odyssey had been to formally and
legally have her birth certificate, passport and related health
documents changed to reflect that she was a woman. Her husband, a former
state legislator and chairman of the Kansas Democratic party, was aware
of all of this. Indeed, there was no question in the case that he was
capable of making his own decisions.

In its ruling, the Kansas Supreme Court agreed with the son, holding
that anyone who is born a man is always a man, and nothing can ever
change that. Under Kansas law, which prohibits same-sex marriages,
J'Noel had been born a man, and thus her marriage to a man was illegal.

But by focusing so doggedly on preventing same-sex marriage, the Kansas
court has created a situation that may make Kansans feel like they
aren't in Kansas anymore. After Gardiner, a woman in Kansas can have
surgery to make herself a man, and then marry a man -- legally. Which
isn't even the weird part. The weird part is that Kansas, a state which
has no ambiguity in its law prohibiting same-sex marriages, is now one
of the few places on Earth that requires transsexuals to be homosexual
as a condition of marriage. Because if a transsexual is heterosexual
after surgery (i.e., a chromosomal woman who has the body of a man and
has sexual desires for women), he can't get married to anyone he has a
sexual desire for. It's only if he's attracted to other men that he can
rely on Kansas law to provide him with a legally binding marriage.

This rule certainly has the virtue of being easy to administer: To
determine whether a marriage is legal in Kansas, a couple will need to
show up at the clerk's office with a documented chromosome check and the
clerk will issue a marriage license. But it's hard to square this rule
with any of the arguments against same-sex marriage that we're used to.
Assume, for example, that J'Noel decides she is a lesbian and finds a
nice girl to settle down with in Wichita or Topeka. They decide to have
a child, and like heterosexual couples who have biological problems
procreating, use a little medical science to intervene. Or maybe they
adopt. Their child (or children) will have legally married homosexual
parents of the same (apparent) sex -- a configuration that many Kansans
find intolerable -- because the court has tried to enforce state law
against same-sex marriage.

J'Noel and her new wife could drop by the supermarket and shop arm in
arm, with all the world, and the world's kids, watching. If they kissed,
and anyone tried to make a big stink about it, J'Noel and her wife could
simply brandish the Supreme Court decision, demonstrating the legality
of their marriage. They would apparently be entitled to all the federal
tax benefits married couples get, not to mention all the rights and
responsibilities married couples have under Kansas law. In fact, they
might fit the profile of a model "normal" marriage in Kansas, though one
would have to see evidence of their chromosomal makeup to understand that.

In its decision, the Kansas court is up-front about the fact that the
legislature is ultimately responsible for what the law says, and that
the court is simply interpreting the law as best it can. But it's hard
to see how the legislature could make a better job of it than the court
did. It is difficult, if not impossible, to compulsively distinguish
between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages without facing the profound
question of what sex is and why it matters.

If the legislature does nothing, it permits homosexual transsexuals to
marry people of what appears to be the same sex, leaving heterosexual
post-op transsexuals out in the cold, along with all the non-transsexual
homosexuals in the state. If the legislature sees a problem in
legalizing apparent same-sex marriage, it could overrule the court and
permit transsexuals to marry someone who is the opposite of their
post-op gender, thus acknowledging that it is the appearance of opposite
sex that is ultimately the guiding force in creating public policy. But,
in order to apply that policy with any consistency, the legislature
would then be obliged to prohibit heterosexual cross-dressers from (a)
marrying, or (b) appearing in public with their spouses and expressing
affection. Option (b) would certainly present some interesting First
Amendment issues, and no one anywhere has proposed anything like option (a).

But that isn't the end of it. Most people, it's true, have either an XX
or an XY chromosome set to determine their gender. But some people have
more. What about those people who have three chromosomes? Who do they
get to marry? How would that be decided? And what about children like
the infamous John/Joan, who was born a male but whose parents approved
an operation to have his penis removed after a botched circumcision and
then raised him as a girl -- with very poor results. Unlike J'Noel,
he/she never had a choice about the sex change. Who should someone like
John/Joan be allowed to marry? And why should the state have any role in
that decision?

The Gardiner ruling, in all its stunning complexity, should illustrate,
better even than the cases dealing directly with same-sex marriage, how
extraordinary it is for the state to be inserting itself into the
relative gender of marital partners. Lesbians and gay men know, and
Gardiner may help some heterosexuals to realize, that it isn't the
relative sex of the partners that makes marriage valuable to both
society and individuals, and it certainly isn't the appearance of
opposite sex; it's the intimacy and satisfaction of the two partners. We
all benefit from couples who support one another, emotionally,
financially, spiritually and in all the other ways couples lean on one
another.

The question at the heart of Gardiner is not whether J'Noel is a man or
a woman, it's whether she is worth treating as a human being. As long as
Kansans focus on the first question, it will be necessary for them to
answer the second with a humiliating no.
keesan
response 2 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 25 21:22 UTC 2002

Thanks for pasting, it helps those of us not using Backtalk.
The chromosome issue is more complicated than this article thinks.  There are
people genetically XY who lack the receptor for testosterone and are therefore
physically female, and considered to be so by genetics books (they are
sterile).  XXY is usually male (also sterile).  X (one chromosome missing)
is sterile female, as is, I think, XXX.  I could check.  There are also a few
mosaics, people with some cells which are XX and some XXY or XY, etc.

Is it still illegal in some states to cross-dress?

Does Kansas require a male to female transsexual to use public rest rooms as
a male?

Are people with Down's syndrome (one extra chromosome) considered by Kansas
to be human and therefore eligible to marry?  About half of their children
should statistically be born 'human'.  What about those with six fingers?

This is of course no sillier than the various rules which have in the past
prohibited people from marrying relatives of their godparents, or the children
of their wetnurses, as being too similar to them.  Or the rules in some
American states allowing cousins to marry only if they are past childbearing
age, which you would think admits that there are marriages formed for reasons
other than procreation.  

Perhaps Kansas ought to allow marriages only between adults who have conceived
and borne a child, as proof that they are capable of doing so.  Some societies
have had rules like this - I think some mountainous area of Peru for instance.
What better proof that you are of opposite sexes?
slynne
response 3 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 25 21:31 UTC 2002

I cant disagree with this article. I cant see any reason why same 
gender legal marriages shouldnt exist. 

rcurl
response 4 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 25 23:05 UTC 2002

Why should  anyone care? It isn't anyone's business except the principles.
jazz
response 5 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 00:30 UTC 2002

        Absolutely beautiful.
bru
response 6 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 03:53 UTC 2002

Back to the I am my own grandpa root of circular reasoning.  I f humans can
concieve it, they can create it.  And the law comes stumbling after.
gull
response 7 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 13:53 UTC 2002

Re #2: People with six fingers are considered witches and burned at the
stake in Kansas.
polygon
response 8 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 14:33 UTC 2002

See http://slate.msn.com/?id=2063410 for an article about this by
William Saletan entitled "The Mutual Frustration of Transsexuals
and Conservatives."
orinoco
response 9 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 15:33 UTC 2002

I'd laugh this off as ridiculous, except that it happens to support my point
of view on one of my pet issues.  Therefore, it's the best legal argument I've
heard in years.  
brighn
response 10 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 16:33 UTC 2002

I think #4 has a misspelling, but I'm not quite sure.
"principle" means "basic idea, tenet" and *would* make sense in context, but
not from Rane (context where it makes sense: "It's not that I have anything
against gays, but it's the principles of the thing: Marriage is a covenant
with God").
"principal" means "most important person" and makes a lot more sense coming
from Rane.
rcurl
response 11 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 17:53 UTC 2002

I thought about that when I wrote it, momentarily debated with myself,
and came to the wrong conclusion. However, if you would just *listen*,
you would understand... 8^}
jmsaul
response 12 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 00:40 UTC 2002

Re #2:  They're only talking about sex.  Down's doesn't affect the sex
        chromosomes.
rcurl
response 13 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 01:33 UTC 2002

There is about a 50% chance of Down's syndrome in the child of a
Down's victim. The trisomy is also present in the somatic cells and
can be transmitted.
jmsaul
response 14 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 02:28 UTC 2002

Are you rebutting what I said, or just adding information?  Your statements
and mine are not inconsistent.
keesan
response 15 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 03:06 UTC 2002

I was bringing this up because people with Down's syndrome have also
frequently been banned from marrying, for eugenics reasons.  If Kansas can
prevent people from  marrying because they don't have a certain combination
of chromosomes, it seems like they ought to be able to ban anyone with any
chromosome abnormality from marrying as well, and therefore make everyone pass
a complete DNA analysis.
jmsaul
response 16 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 14:17 UTC 2002

The difference is that there's no religious objection to people with Down's
marrying, and religion is why Kansas has that law.
eskarina
response 17 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 17:49 UTC 2002

I'm not sure its entirely religion.  There are plenty of nonreligious
homophobic people.  
tsty
response 18 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 23:33 UTC 2002

as well as religious, nonhomophobic people - plenty of 'em.  
  
 uhhh, way back there in the opinion, what authority cites support 
for the holding that 
  
 "that anyone who is born a man is always a man, and nothing can ever
 change that."
  
is that the writer's interpretation, or quoted court text?
  
no one is 'born a man' nor 'born a woman' - nominally male/female perhaps.
  
and death changes either/any into a corpse, of course, it's tough for
a corpse to say 'i do.' 'i did,' perhaps but not 'i do.'
.

russ
response 19 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 00:06 UTC 2002

As long as the public has to support the results, maybe people
with genetically-transmitted diseases should have to buy
insurance against the chance of their children having said
disease.  If they use a sperm or egg donor or otherwise guarantee
that their children won't be affected, they would obviously not
have to pay (or qualify for a refund).

Call it what you want, but why should the public be paying for
other people's decisions, or subsidizing activities which
increase human suffering?
keesan
response 20 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 00:48 UTC 2002

You mean things like war?
oval
response 21 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 00:52 UTC 2002

right on!
rcurl
response 22 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 02:32 UTC 2002

Yes, I DO have a problem with having to pay for some of Russ' decisions.
Can  I get a refund, Russ?
bdh3
response 23 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 07:58 UTC 2002

No, but you can vote.  And go through life pausing at each
major decision point and considering WWRD, and then do the opposite.
slynne
response 24 of 187: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 15:27 UTC 2002

I wish russ's folks would pay society for our pain and suffering. 
*snort*

Seriously though, how can anyone guarantee that their child wont have 
some genetic health problem? 
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