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Really? Mark Unseen   May 10 22:35 UTC 2002


South Korea's baby-boomer parents in increasing numbers recently are 
sending their preschool youngsters for outpatient mouth surgery to snip 
the tissue under the tongue because they believe more tongue freedom will 
permit the children to pronounce the difficult "l" and "r" sounds that 
have long stigmatized many Asians when speaking English. "Learning 
English is almost the national religion" in South Korea, according to one 
educator quoted in a March Los Angeles Times report, but many authorities 
in South Korea say Asians' pronunciation trouble is purely cultural and 
that only a very few people are born with tight-enough tongues to be 
helped by these "frenectomies." [Los Angeles Times, 3-31-02]
22 responses total.
gelinas
response 1 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 11 03:48 UTC 2002

Right; the 'problem' is that /r/ and /l/ are not phonemes in (some) East Asian
languages.  Just as English does not have an aspirated "t" (/th/ and /dh/
aren't the same as the aspirated t).
tsty
response 2 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 11 06:12 UTC 2002

that never stoped he mexicans ....
bdh3
response 3 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 11 06:37 UTC 2002

I smell 'urban legend'.
katie
response 4 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 12 23:00 UTC 2002

I had that kind of surgery when I was a kid.
aruba
response 5 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 12 23:29 UTC 2002

Is that why you sing so well?
bdh3
response 6 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 13 05:15 UTC 2002

Think about this for a moment.  There are US citizens who are of
pure asian genetics that speak english just as well if not
better than 'natives'.  Even first generation children if started
early enough can speak english like a 'native' as well as their
own cradle language.  Some asians speak little if anything other
than english and those 'foreign' languages they do speak are with
an 'american accent'.  Therefore it has nothing to do with the
physical and all to do with the mental.  Thus I deem the item#0
as urban legend and/or quack medicine.
keesan
response 7 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 13 14:14 UTC 2002

I knew one American kid with this sort of problem who was supposed to get
surgery for it.  Also I have met several Slavs who were physically unable to
roll their r's so had to pronounce them German fashion (uvular).
oval
response 8 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 13 22:29 UTC 2002

i agree, that problem may exists among ALL humans sometimes, but for the most
part any dificulty with learning a new language is probably cultural. like
the french having trouble with the american "th" sound.

jmsaul
response 9 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 14 02:40 UTC 2002

I suspect all of them are.  That said, some are probably really strongly
ingrained, and natives probably pick them up very young.  I've studied
Mandarin, and while I'm very good with languages I still find tones damn
difficult because I've been conditioned to read them as carrying emotional
content rather than meaning.
jazz
response 10 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 14 18:56 UTC 2002

        If you believe Chomsky, we all start out with a much larger set of
potential phonemes and they're narrowed down by the language, or languages,
we're exposed to.

        Japanese, the language most infamous for confusing "r" and "l" does
have a "r" or "l" sound, but there's no distinction between the two in casual
usage.  It's not a difference all native Japanese speakers have been trained
to hear.
keesan
response 11 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 14 22:42 UTC 2002

I have discovered that babies are delighted if you can repeat back to them
their nonsense syllables, which are usually full of phonemes not found in
English, such as a bilabial fricative (bbbbbbbb).
gelinas
response 12 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 15 01:33 UTC 2002

re #11: that's the definition of "phoneme": it makes a difference between
words. like /zoo/ and /shoo/ and /soo/
jazz
response 13 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 15 15:16 UTC 2002

        
        Re #11:  We're strongly wired for that, yeah.  That's how we identify
the units of the language or languages we're born into.
gelinas
response 14 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 02:24 UTC 2002

Actually, #12 was a response to #10, not #11.
orinoco
response 15 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 17:53 UTC 2002

Hrm.  According to www.korcon.com/intro/intro.htm, Korean has both [r] and
[l] sounds.  The problem is that [l] can only occur at the beginning or end
of a word, and [r] can only occur between vowels.  That makes it even harder
to believe that there's a physiological reason why speakers of Korean have
trouble with English [r] and [l].
keesan
response 16 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 19:24 UTC 2002

English has both aspirated and unaspirated p and t and k, which in some
languages (those of India) are distinct sounds.  The unaspirated versions are
found after s (speak, stock, scat) and I think at the ends of words, and the
aspirated versions before vowels.  This may be a reason why English speakers
have trouble pronouncing Hindi.
keesan
response 17 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 19:25 UTC 2002

Which is correctly spelled Hindhi but English speakers do not distinguish
between d and dh either.
bhelliom
response 18 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 20:19 UTC 2002

This response has been erased.

bhelliom
response 19 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 16 20:25 UTC 2002

Vietnamese is also particularly pesky, as many of the letter 
pronounciations are rather subtle or have no equivalent in English, and 
are therefore often difficult to pronounce correctly.
russ
response 20 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 28 01:39 UTC 2002

Is Vietnamese as annoyingly alliterative as the phrase
"particularly pesky"?  ;-)

Something I learned about Farsi from a pronunciation error:  it
apparently requires a vowel sound between a consonant and an "s"
(perhaps only at the beginning of a word).  My sample Farsi
speaker had me quite confused about what we were drinking that
day because I had no idea what "oldehstile" was (well, it was
American pisswater beer to be sure, but I wanted specifics).
bhelliom
response 21 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 28 16:36 UTC 2002

<laughs>  Depends on the dialect.
orinoco
response 22 of 22: Mark Unseen   May 30 02:41 UTC 2002

I imagine more languages than not would have trouble with "Old Style."  Three
consonants in a row is tricky, as is a voiced one (the d) with an unvoiced
one (the s) right after.
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