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teapot
Don't fight over the stocks, fight over the stockpot. Mark Unseen   Dec 17 04:41 UTC 2000

Recently at a dinner party, the following situation was described.  A 
friend of mine had a dotty aunt die, and she left her estate to the 
children of her siblings.  Being a dotty aunt, the estate was 
considerable even before they looked in the plasterboard and under the 
bed.

What is the quandry?

Well, one brother had been fruitful and multiplied, while the sister 
had not.  At last count, the brother had four children and two step-
children, and the sister two.  Furthermore, the brother had roughly 20 
grandchildren, and the sister three. Another brother had no children, 
but still lives.

How should the estate be settled?  If the family does it by head count, 
what is fair?  At the sibling level, child or grandchild level?  Should 
it be different for the "family" items and for the cash?  How about the 
stepchildren? How about the child born this year, or in the following 
five years?

Not that I would prefer primogeniture, but that system did streamline 
these issues.
26 responses total.
gelinas
response 1 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 04:52 UTC 2000

The method should be specified in the will.

I think the usual way is that the first generation splits evenly, then
the second generation splits their progenitor's portion equally.  So being
fruitful and multiplying does NOT garner a larger piece of the pie.  But 
people can do anything they like in these matters.
scott
response 2 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 04:58 UTC 2000

Obviously, the sister should get the bulk so that *she* can be the dotty aunt
in a generation.
scg
response 3 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 08:25 UTC 2000

I assume the will would specify.

In the situation like that that I experienced, one of my mom's aunts died,
and left a not terribly large amount of money to be split among the niece and
nephews (my mom and I think three of her cousins), who were all named
individually in the will.  It got divided by 4, with a quarter of it going
to each of the three nephews, and what would have been my mom's quarter being
split between my brother and me.

Based on that, I'm guessing that in the scenario described here, if the will
isn't more clear, hwo it would get distributed depends on whether it's left
in equal chunks to the siblings (whose shares would be divided among the next
generation of their decendants if the siblings aren't still alive), or if it's
left in equal parts to the nieces and nephews, in which case it would
presumably be divided equally among them.

In any case, the will probably has a lawyer playing some part in dealing with
it, and the lawyer should know the answers to those questions.  In the case
described above, I think I first found out that the relative (who I had only
met a few times when I was a very small child, and didn't even have a clear
memory of) had died when the lawyer dealing with the will contacted my dad
to ask how to send money to my brother and me.
ric
response 4 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 15:41 UTC 2000

Divided equally amonth all living decendants.  Each person gets their fair
share.  Just because one of the dotty aunt's siblings had 6 kids and 20 grand
kids doesn't make that person any richer.  That sibling gets no more of the
money than any other sibling.

Any other way of dividing up the estate is unfair.  

For simplicity's sake, let's say there are two siblings.  One has three kids,
the other has 1 kid.  The estate is worth $10 million.  There are a total of
6 people to divide the money among, so each person gets exactly 1/6 of $10
million.

Money being granted to anyone under 18 should go into a trust fund, preventing
their parents from having access to that money.
polygon
response 5 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 17:35 UTC 2000

Two of my second cousins, Douglas and Nina, got $10 million each.

In ten years, all the money was gone.
mary
response 6 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 18:43 UTC 2000

Our family (my parents) asked their three daughters how we'd
like to see this handled and we all agreed any inheritance should
be split 3 ways, among the daughters.  The grandchildren will
receive their (if any) inheritance from their parents.

We thought this system sounded the fairest to all.
scg
response 7 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 19:40 UTC 2000

I believe that in the case I talked about, where the money was split among
the person's niece and nephews, that the person who died didn't have any
children of her own to leave it to.  I think all the other estates in my
family that I'm familiar with have been split up the way Mary described.
teapot
response 8 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 20:02 UTC 2000

How is this fair to the grand-nieces and nephews that the dotty aunt 
presumably loved equally?
mary
response 9 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 17 23:37 UTC 2000

Her loving you doesn't mean you have any claims on her money are 
that she has any obligation to see you get a share.

Do you love your parents enough to want them to inherit their
parents' money?  Or maybe you somehow think you deserve it more
and should get some now and not leave that to your parents to decide.

Maybe you are also starting to see why the aunt left grand-nieces
and nephews out.
janc
response 10 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 18 00:00 UTC 2000

I don't understand why the family is sitting around a table discussing who
gets how much money.  So far as I know, it isn't your choice.  Either she
wrote a will, telling who she wanted the money to go to, or the law of the
state she lived in decides who gets what.  State laws are pretty rational,
dividing things equally among children, with any deceased childrens' share
divided among their children, and so forth.
janc
response 11 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 18 00:03 UTC 2000

Oh, sorry.  I see she did have a will.  It should say how to divide things.
If it doesn't I'm presuming their are legal defaults (probably "evenly"). 
You still don't get to decide.
polygon
response 12 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 18 01:12 UTC 2000

Sometimes the legal defaults are different than what people assume is
the case.

If you die unmarried, without children, and either or both of your parents
are still living, then your parents get everything of yours.  If you're in
that situation, and that's not the result you had in mind, you might want
to think about making a will.
grangerz
response 13 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 18 06:08 UTC 2000

i think weve identified one of the reasons i avoid people who are in "funeral
mode"
i find the most fair way of doing the whole thing is devide the share equally
amounst the first generation, and if that generation's member is decesased
than that persons share should be divided equally amounst that individuals
children, and so forth,

i have no will
if i get married ill bestow everything i own to my wife
andillhave a cluase that says if there is no wife divide everything equally
amounst the children, and that if one child is deceased take his or her share
and divide it equally among those grandchildren,

i dont plan to die,  and its not that im afraid of death, but again, fuck
funerals,
i was at a funeral some two years ago for this guy i only saw like twice,
had lunch with him once,
and i was kneeling there balling my eye balls out, and it horrified me all
the people who knew him really well
so i dont go anymore,
its just not something i do,

but the truth be known about five years ago my great aunt maggie died,

i have no idea how her estate played out at all, but she had a living husband
so,

maggie had a granddaughter named channing,
channing was and is still 10 years younger than me,

so there she was like 8 and there i was like 18
and we went for this walk the morning of the funeral mass,
and i was telling her about how when i was 11 my grandpa died,
and that i missed him,
and i told her it was ok for her to feel bad and sad and to miss her grandma

i would see her once or twice a year ever since,
and i saw her just yesterday,
and out of my whole world of existence most people well tell you the same
thing,
seans a smart kid, but hes some times a little wierd,

channing is probably the only person who would say,  no seans the most normal
sane person and i really like him and he once made an
actual real difference in my emotional well being,
granted shes 13 and probably wouldnt use words like that till shes 23,
but still,

my point i guess is a wierd one,  (but theres one guy out there, probably
remmers, who will understand)

when someone dies we collectively should gather to discuss the emotional
impact,

yet like fools we squander whatever fortune was left us

nay for maggie,  it was a loss of a friend,

so i avoid hanging with people who will squander,
but allow my heart a lead, to someone who might need me,
alas i shall again one day say,  tis you who grieve and shed your tears,
and this is ok for you to do, dont be afraid, cry on my sholder,
my dad cried on my sholder when his father (my grandfather) died

its possible my fear of funerals is just based on this early experience with
it,
that someone who feels a great loss comes to me, cried on my sholder,
and that it be the end,
that i am the comforting one,

but standing there at that funeral, week, and no one letting me cry on theirs

i believe ive finished my story
adieu
mcnally
response 14 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 18 07:26 UTC 2000

  I'll just put in a plug here for writing a will and doing it right..

  I hear horror stories about people who died intestate or who put
  together a half-assed will with a do-it-yourself kit from the attorneys
  I know who practice probate law.  Probate can be a time consuming
  and expensive process without a good will and can be very hard on
  your heirs when they've presumably got other things on their minds..
  In the worst case it can tear a family apart.  Creating a fairly
  simple will is not expensive and you can change your mind later on
  if your needs change or if you change your mind.

  Oh, and if your family status has changed recently (divorce, adoption,
  new child, etc..) -- have you updated your will?
keesan
response 15 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 20 23:12 UTC 2000

I think the public library has some form that you can fill out, specifying
who inherits and who is in charge of carrying things out.  You also need a
will if you don't want your money to go to your children or other people who
would normally inherit.  I specifically excluded my brother (who does not need
it) before listing the charities to receive it instead.  
Does anyone know how things are divided up if someone has a spouse and a
sibling?
scg
response 16 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 02:33 UTC 2000

In that case, everything would go to the spouse by default, I believe.
mcnally
response 17 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 05:36 UTC 2000

  re #15:  depends on the will, if there is one, and on the state, and
  possibly on the respective sexes of the deceased and their spouse.

  Most commonly, unless there is a will the spouse will inherit everything.
  In some states, if you write a will you can divide things any way you
  want.  Unless I completely misremember, however, in some states you
  *cannot* specify that absolutely nothing is left to a spouse -- in those
  states the spouse is guaranteed a certain portion of the estate no matter
  what.  I believe in Michigan this is the case for women but not for men -
  women have dower rights (?) and must receive a portion of their spouse's
  estate, but men do not and can be shut out if their spouse so wills.
cmcgee
response 18 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 16:21 UTC 2000

Spouse inherits automatically unless the die-ee also has children.  Then
spouse and children split automatically unless die-ee has a will directing
a different split from what the state law requires [In Michigan].
ashke
response 19 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 16:57 UTC 2000

Interesting.  I was always under the impression that the spouse inherits only
unless the will specifies that it be split with the children.
tpryan
response 20 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 17:58 UTC 2000

        My freind in Florida is going thru inheritence greif.  He thought
he and his father set things us right (in the 70's) such that his father
was co-owner of his assets and he was the co-owener of his father's 
assets.  Now the rules changed since then.  He now has to prove he 
bought his assets, so as to not inheirent them again (and have to 
pay tax).  Sigh!
ashke
response 21 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 18:25 UTC 2000

That's odd.  Usually if they did it in the 70's and it was written, you can't
do it by the new law, you have to go by the law then.  
mooncat
response 22 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 21 20:26 UTC 2000

Not necessarily so with inheritance laws... Trust me, we work with 
them.  They change often.
gull
response 23 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 22 05:45 UTC 2000

Re #17: Michigan's law in that regard is interesting.  If you're married,
male, and own any real estate, your wife has dowery rights to it.  This
isn't exactly an ownership right, but it's a right to use the property; sort
of like an easement.  The result, in modern times, is that your wife has to
sign off on anything that's done with the property.

If you're female and married, you can own any property you want and your
husband has no claim to it.

This dates back to when women effectively ceased to exist, legally, when
they became married.  It was a way to at least prevent them from being
thrown out in the cold after a divorce.
johnnie
response 24 of 26: Mark Unseen   Dec 22 15:47 UTC 2000

Hmm.  So I'm a stay-at-home-parent.  My wife is the sole breadwinner.  
After I've successfully raised the children to adulthood, my wife can 
kick me out and I'm SOL?  
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