Grex Cooking Conference

Item 3: What's Next, Sex Machines? (The Bread Machine Item, continued)

This item is to continue the religious wars about bread machines,
begun in the Volume 1 of this conference.

A bread machine now adorns our kitchen counter.  It is making a loaf
of whole wheat bread even as I type.  I slaved for seconds and seconds
measuring the ingredients and putting them into the bread pan.  This
is my first "from scratch" bread ever.

Eat your heart out, mythago.

infidel.

Well, after four machine loaves I'm a believer.  Three, the Johnny Appleseed
Bread, the English Muffin Bread, and the second attempt at wheat bread
are all wonderful.  Far better than anything purchased at a grocery store.

The very first loaf, a wheat bread, was made using a recipe from the manual,
and it was good but a bit dense for my taste.  Since then I've read on 
Prodigy's Food and Wine club that many people have found the manual 
recipes to be okay at best.  Another couple of books were suggested, of
which I picked up one, and the last three loaves (from _Bread Machine
Magic_) were amazingly good. 

I'm a believer now.  This is not just another useless kitchen gadget.

Which brand and model did you say it was?

Panasonic "Bread Bakery" Automatic Bread Maker, model SD-BT65P.

Thanks, remmers.  I love you too.

Um, well, my first loaf turned out *great* despite not quite following
the directions.  Best whole wheat bread I've ever tasted.

re the header:  Wishful thinking, John.  :)

The complete reference on the recipe book Mary mentioned in #2 is:
_Bread Machine Magic_, by Linda Rehberg & Lois Conway (St. Martin's
Press, 1992).  Everything we've made from it has turned out great.

Even as I type, the machine is brewing "Anne and Bill's Apple
Oatmeal Bread with Raisins" (p. 96).  I've set the timer so that
the loaf will be ready for breakfast tomorrow morning.

Yum.

Like my sister and brother-in-law (remmers) I, too, am the proud new owner of
a Panasonic Bread Maker. (point of fact is that I am the reason they own
theirs!). In fact, I taught Mary and John all they know about using it! 
English Muffin bread is "brewing" in mine as I type and is timed to come out
about 7:00 a.m. The only bad part about it is that we have a difficult time not
eating the entire loaf at one sitting.  Great invention.  Save a slice of the
Annie's & Bill's Oatmeal Raisin, John, for us to try.

 arrrrgh... it's spreading...the bread machine madness!!!!ARRRGH.

My wife and I browsed our way through Hudson's the other day and we were
both struck by the incredibly humongous cost of these bread machines.
For us, at least, the old-fashioned, labor-intensive method of bread making
seems to be best for our budget.  Obviously, Hudson's is not a discount
store; what sort of a price range is there for bread machines?  And do
you see a correlation between price and quality (/ease of use/consistency
of baking/etc.)?

ABC Warehouse is selling the same Panasonic model we have for $80 less
that Hudson's.

Re #9: Hey Pat, you didn't teach *me* diddley.  I've just been following
the recipes in the book.  The apple oatmeal bread I baked last night
is delicious, by the way.  You better get over to the house quick if
you want some.  (Though actually, you could make it yourself -- it's
*that* easy... ;-)

Best sells a bread machine for $99.  I paid $149 for mine there.
DAK sells the same thing for $129 plus $14 postage and handling; they
include a really neat recipe book with it.  DAK is in chapter 11 now,
though, so be careful.

On Prodigy on the Food & Wine bulletin board there are some great discussions
on types of machines, their problems and advantages.  Not to mention there are
some great recipes posted there. I just baked one for "catskill mountain
french" that is superb.

  Is there any particular model that's clearly recommended over the others?

so that's why I haven't seen a DAK catalog in ages.

re :11 (applause)

The bread machine groupies on Prodigy seem to like something 
called the Zoji as well as the Panasonic and Hitachi machines.
Each are supposed to make great bread while offering slightly
different features.  The Hitachi is at Best right now for 
something like $169.  The Panasonic deluxe model, at ABC Warehouse,
is $269.  

There are a number of bread machine books on the market that
offer extensive information on the different machines.  The
authors of _Bread Machine Magic_ tested all recipes on the same
six or seven brands of bread machines and include notes on how
to alter the basic recipe to get the best loaf with your specific
machine.  

My son and his fiance came in today from Minneapolis and promptly
proceeded to polish off the rest of the Catskill Mountain French
loaf AND the remaining 4 slices (large) of the English Muffin
bread!!  So, now I can start baking all over again and try some
new recipies.  The expensive part of all this is not the cost
of the machine or the cost of all the ingredients, but rather the
cost of the new wardrobes we'll need as we grow out of the old
one.....

                 "CATSKILL MOUNTAIN FRENCH BREAD"

7 oz. water
"almost" 3 cups bread flour
2 tsp sugar
2 tsp salt
1-2 TBsp sesame seeds
1 TBsp butter/margarine
2 tsp active dry yeast (Red Star is best)

Makes a 1 lb loaf.  Bake on "french" or "crisp" mode if available,
otherwise "standard" mode.  I used the "crisp" mode on my Panasonic
and used "diet margarine" and "natural" (not toasted) sesame seeds.
Turned out great!  The credit for this recipe goes to Donna Celeiro
of Catskill Mtns, NYS.
Hope you like it.

Hmm, I'll have to get "Bread Machine Magic" to add to my bread
machine cookbook collection.  

Well, we've been having a good time with the bread machine.  Whole
wheat sunflower breads, French breads, apricot bread, Anadama bread...
I don't think we'll be buying much from the bakery or grocery store 
from here on out.  And I don't think we're really eating more bread than
before it's just that what we have is worlds better and fresher.  

This is not another kitchen gadget.  I'd give up my Cuisinart before
the bread machine would go.

That's right.  Wasn't Anadama that character Gilda Radner used to play
on Saturday Night Live?

I thought that Anadama was on Battlestar Galactica!
I don't remember Gilda Radner on Battlestar Galactica, and
I know there wasn't a starship name the Saturday Night Live.

i thought anadama was a bad female rock trio that lip-synched its concerts.

Right-o.  I saw them at the last bandarama.

  That is Roseann Roseannadanna. I believe, that you will find the story of
Anadama bread in Mr. Beard's tretise on Bread.  Personally i can't stand the 
stuff. 

pineal gland

I picked up "Bread Machine Magic" last night.  Hoping try try a 
recipe today.  Unlike Mary, I still buy store-bought breads for
sandwiches, mostly because the bread-machine rye recipe I tried
before just didn't do it for me.  Perhaps one of the rye recipes
in "Bread Machine Magic" will do the trick.

Try these two recipes sometime.  Both make one pound loaves that
are excellent.

       **** Catskill Mountain Rye ****

4 tbsp. gluten
3 tbsp. non-fat dry milk
1 3/4 cups bread flour
1 cup rye flour
1 tbsp. caraway seeds
1 tsp. salt
1 cup water
1 tbsp. vegetable oil
2 tbsp. honey 
1 tsp. yeast

Bake on a light bread setting if available.


     **** English Muffin Bread ****

2 cups bread flour
2 tbsp. non-fat dry milk
1/8 tsp. baking soda
2/3 tsp. salt
1 1/4 tsp. sugar
1 cup plus 1 1/2 tbsp. water
1 1/2 tsp. yeast

Mary, is the Panasonic one of the machines that requires you to 
add the liquids last?  I ask because of the order you in which
you listed ingredients.  I have to remember to reverse that
order for my Hitachi.

It's not supposed to make much difference what order the 
ingredients are added in the Panasonic because the yeast
is dispensed separately after everything is pretty much
blended. 

In the machine at this moment is a loaf on honey whole wheat
bread courtesy of chef John.

Ja, my Welbilt needs to have yeast first, then other dry ingredients,
then liquids last.

Well, I tried one of the rye recipes in "Bread Machine Magic"
today.  I think it might have been "Lois's favorite Rye" but
I'm not sure.  It called for one cup of whole wheat and one 
cup of bread flour, but I used all bread flour (plus half a 
cup of rye) because I found bugs crawling around the whole
wheat box (the rye and bread flours were both in glass jars, 
but I didn't have one for the whole wheat).  Yucko to bugs
in flour.
 

The bread tastes very good, though it is a bit shorter than I
expected it to be.  I'll have to buy some new whole wheat flour
and try the recipe again the way it was intended to be made.

Does anyone else have problems with little bugs in grain products?
I guess I need to put everything in glass canisters and jars.

Those little bugs can generally be eliminated by disposing of all
contaminated products (check everything in the vicinity of the wheat
box), and by thoroughly cleaning the storage area.  You probably
brought them home from the grocery store.

From what I've read it's suggested all whole grain flours
be kept in airtight containers in the refrigerator as they
have a lot of natural oils which turn rancid quite quickly.  These
would include the rye and whole wheat flours. Bread flour and all
purpose flour are okay kept in a pantry in sealed containers so
they won't suck-up humidity and other, er, things. For the same
reason most seeds should be refrigerated or frozen. Things like
sesame seed, poppy and sunflower seeds.  Yeast should always be
refrigerated and even then replaced ever 2 to 4 months, max.
Powdered buttermilk should be in the fridge but non-fat dry milk
doesn't need to be.

Since starting this bread-making-with-a-vengence stuff I've lost
half a shelf of refrigerator space to Rubbermaid containers
holding some of these supplies. I've also found a *great* place to
find all this stuff, fresh and cheap - Fireside, off Huron just
west of the railroad overpass.  They carry Red Star yeast in bulk,
dehydrated fruits like apricots and cherries, and every kind of
whole grain flour you could want.

Rye flour makes a dense loaf of bread as does whole wheat flour.
The higher the proportion of whole grain flour to bread flour, the
denser the loaf.  So if that rye loaf you made is about as heavy
as you'd like then I doubt you'd like it additional whole wheat flour.
One way around this, a techique used by bakeries, is to add 1
tbsp. of gluten for every cup of whole grain flour in a recipe.
This will allow a lighter, larger loaf, with the same whole grain
flavor.  Gluten is also available at Fireside.

Yes, I've used gluten in several recipes before.  It helped, especially
when I wasn't using bread flour.
 

Tonight I made "Cheddar/Bacon Bread," from "The Bread Machine
Cookbook II," by Donna Rathan (sp?).  Really, really yummy!

I've kept yeast in the fridge for a year or more and never had a problem
with it working (and my bread recipe uses the equivalent of 1 pkg yeast
to 6-7 cups flour, which is 1/2 the yeast that most recipes call for).

buggies in flour are what sifting was invented for!
(ok, so i throw out flour with buggies in it, but in the olden
days it was supposedly very hard to find flour without buggies).

ever since a bug epidemic about a year ago, i store all flour in
the brown paper bags i bring it home from the co-op in, in the refrigerator.
no sign of buggies.
freezing, if you've got space, is supposed to be an even better
bug-prevention method.

How often does a new bread-machine digest come in, Valerie?  I think
I need another fix.
 
I made peanut butter-banana bread two days ago (from vol.2 of the
Donna Rathmell German series).  Not bad, although it seems to have
an identity complex...  Is it peanut butter, or is it banana?   

Mary was telling me about a great herb bread she made recently...
Was that the Italian Herb Bread from "Bread Machine Magic," Mary?

the bread digest seems to appear at random intervals.  sometimes there
seems to be one a week; other times six or eight weeks seems to go by
without a new one.  i think the guy who coordinates the list may wait
until he has a certain number of submissions or a certain amount of
submitted text to send out.  the most recent bread digest was the third
or fourth that arrived in quick succession, so it may be a while before
the next one arrives.

Yes, Leslie, it was Anita's Italian Herb Bread, from _Bread
Machine Magic_, page 27.  The recipe calls for basil and oregano
but the basil that remains in my herb garden is well past prime so
I substituted fresh thyme and marjoram with the oregano.  Also,
instead of the piddly quantity called for I used about 1/4 cup
total of these herbs.  The Parmasean was freshly grated Reggiano.
This was a very good loaf of bread.

Er, I think it's spelled Parmesan.  And to think I grew up in 
an Italian neighborbood.

We've now had our bread machine for 6 months and I'm simply dazzled
by what it can do.  From basic dough to hearty, full-grain breads, 
it's a workhorse of an appliance.  I'm learning where to shop for
the freshest supplies and have picked up some great recipes from
_Bread Machine Magic_ and off of Prodigy's cooking forum.  We haven't
bought a loaf of bread since last July.  Anyone else take the plunge
yet and purchase one of these dohingies?

I'm the proud new owner of a bread machine.  I don't have anything 
baking just yet, but I hope to shortly.

Boy, do I have some recipes for you. ;-)  Congrats on taking the
chance on what I've found to be a very helpful appliance.  If you
haven't already shopped at Fireside (near Huron and Chapin) stop
by one of these days.  They are a wonderful source for bulk yeast,
seeds, and whole grain flours.

Another good tip, thanks.

The crummy recipe book that came with my machine seems to call for
a lot of dried skim milk.  Is this ingredient really necessary?

It turns up in a *lot* of bread machine recipes.  It's supposed
to improve the bread texture, or something, and be easier to store than
real milk.  In general, you can substitute warm milk for the water and
leave out the powdered milk altogether.  For variety, powdered buttermilk
is pretty good instead of powdered milk in some recipes.
Tip: The book _Bread Machine Magic_, aside from having lots of yummy recipes,
tends to use real milk more often than the powdered stuff.

Congrats about the bread maker!  What brand is it?  Have you made any
bread with it yet?  If so, what kind was your first loaf?

I sure wish my machine didn't break down awhile back, I really miss being
able to use it. [And can't afford a new one...]

Valerie, it's the same model you have, I think.  It's Welbilt with
the glass dome.

Have you made any bread yet?  How'd it do?  Huh?  Huh?
;)

As I type, I have a loaf of raisin bread in the machine.  It looks
great!  It should be done in an hour.

How was it?

Fantastic.  Today, I made a loaf of French bread.  It looked a little
wet, so I was kind of scared that it wasn't going to turn out, but
it still turned out great.

<sigh>

Have you gotten a Bread Digest lately?  The latest one accessible with
the "bread" command is May 1993.

If your first few loaves are a success you're doing great.  It took me 
maybe three or four attempts and a bread machine specific cookbook before
I had a truly good loaf.  It is a whole different way to approach cooking
as the recipe is God.  Bread by hand is very forgiving but in the machine
if the measurements aren't very close the end product can wildly vary.
Heck, I even notice differences using the same recipe when the humidity
is high or the kitchen is hot.

It's been about a year that I've had a bread machine and in that time
I've only purchased two loaves of bread.  All told I've probably made
about 40 different kinds of bread and have found a few favorites along
the way that have become household staples.  One shelf of the refrigerator
has been taken over by containers of difference whole grain flours, yeasts,
gluten, yeast, dehydrated buttermilk, seven grain cereal, seeds, nuts,
and dried cherries.  And in the beginning I think our family did indeed
eat more bread than we had before the machine arrived, but that seemed
to pass once the novelty wanned.  Now we just eat better bread.

Again, I'll enthusiastically recommend purchasing either _Bread 
Machine Magic_ or any of the Donna German books.  Her last in the
set (#4) puts an emphasis on vegan style baking, using little or no
oil and dairy products.  _BMM_ gives hints on how to slightly vary
each recipe to work best in your make of machine (that's how important
the recipe is for consistent results).

s /waned/wanned  Vi and I did battle over the second paragraph.  Vi won.

About bugs: We used to have perennial problems with bugs in cat food,
only once with people food.  Relatively airtight containers seem to have
been all that was necessary.
About yeast: I have heard the rule of thumb "2 months at room temperature,
4 months in the refrigerator, indefinitely in the freezer."  This assumes 
thatyour refrigeration unit works properly.
I used to be able to make bread better than the bread machine does.  That 
was Before Children, in the days when I could do something without Always 
Being Distracted.  The habit was crowded out by some years of attempting
a hypoallergenic rotation diet for Dave, and our first machine paid for 
itself in less than 2 years (because cheap bread
*ALWAYS* has corn in it).  That one died after 3 years, and for 6 months
I baked from scratch because we felt we couldn't afford a new one (even 
though the price had come down, we had another child and another house).
But bread doesn't put up very well with an indefinite number of 
interruptions of indefinite length, and we were all relieved when 
the exchequer stretched to the second one (both DAK,
the second one their Turbo).  This one is more touchy about humidity
and especially about temperature, nothing will rise properly on a 
winter's night. But it makes bread without corn, milk, sesame, or 
oats (or anything that we just don't happen to like, caraway e.g.)
and makes it without my having to come back to it, and requires only
minimal dishwashing besides.  I wouldn't be without it (unless somebody
wants to give me a Vita-Mix instead, with return privileges).

Perhaps I spoke too soon.  My third loaf, another loaf of French bread,
didn'
t:e

Opps.  

Perhaps I spoke too soon.  My third loaf, another French bread, didn't
do so hot.  It rose, but then deflated once it began baking.  I added
a half cup more flour to this batch as the first one looked kind of
wet, but that looks like it was the wrong move.

btw, I did get a copy of Bread Machine Magic and it is a great book.
In fact, I credit my success with my first loaf to Mary's advice to
buy the book.

I bake twice a week by hand, 4 loafs at a pop.  I've been seriously thinking
about getting a machine (4-5 pounds of flour being kneaded at once is giving
me muscles).  STeve is still against it and I usually don't mind making by
hand.  This may change to strong lobbying for one when I finally get a job.
(Of course my family thinks that I am superwoman and should be able to manage
a part time job and still cook and bake the way I do now, sigh :-)

re 56 - haven't gotten a bread machine digest since the May, 1993 issue.
i should send in some mail to make sure i haven't fallen off the mailing
list or anything.  the original bread machine digest overwhelmed the
machine it was on, so maybe the new-edition-on-a-new-machine overwhelmed
the new machine, too.

re first loaves always coming out bad: my first loaf was okey dokey (you
had some, mary, john, and dan) and i've only ever had one really awful
loaf.  that one was awful because i went too crazy with the seasonings.
a couple of loaves have been funny-shaped but still edible.
<brag brag>  ;)

Hey Grace -- welcome to the cooking conference!  Glad to see you here!

re #59  -- hey!  Someone else who knows what a vita-mix is!!  I spent
18 months paying mine off week after week. When it finally arrived I
was thrilled. It can do so many things well!  (Fresh ground flour from
my Vita-mix going into a bread machine is one of my fantasies.)  ;)

here's a response i received when i sent mail to the bread-mailing-list
folks asking if i'd fallen off the list:
---------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1993 09:54:17 EDT
From: Jim Carey <netmeg!cykick.infores.com!JCAREY>
To: popcorn@cyberspace.org
Subject: RE: is it still alive?

I don't see you on it.  The digest has been quiet for a while.  It's possible
you got removed when I got fed up with a lot of bounce messages and purged the
list.  I'll add you back on as "popcorn@cyberspace.org".

One went out last night, I'll send that to you.

Jim


--

Jim Carey
jcarey@cykick.infores.com or jim.carey@infores.com
Information Resources, Inc.                        Me speak for them? HAH.

I'll revive this item.  I gave my wife a "3-cup" Welbilt for X-mas this
year.  My son gave her "Electric Bread," a cookbook done by some group
in Alaska that tested some 4,000 loaves in 7 different brands.  So far,
we've made two loaves..."white" from a recipe that came with the machine,
and "Honey Wheat" from Electric Bread.  Both were very good.

The Electric Bread cookbook has each recipe in "2-cup" and "3-cup" sizes,
for the various machine sizes.

On a side note, I have a question:

The machine has 3 different kneading/baking settings, and I have no idea
what the differences are:  "White Bread" "French Bread" and "Sweet Bread."
 
Does anyone know how these differ?

Well, I'd guess that that's the equivalent of three setting found
on most machines that allow for normal crust, crispy crust, and
light crust.  The white bread would be the normal, the French bread
would be for a crispy or hard crust, and the sweet bread would
be the light setting.  Any time you make a loaf with honey, 
sugar, molasses, etc., you tend to get a darker crust and depending
on the amount of sugar it can become much too dark and take on a
"burned" flavor if cooked on the normal/regular setting.

In _Electric Bread_ there is a recipe for cherry bread.  It calls
for something like 3/4 cup of dried cherries, which makes the loaf
fairly expensive to make, but it is a truly wonderful bread.  Cook
this one on the light/sweet bread setting.  This is my favorite loaf
to give as a gift.

Hint: Get the cherries at Fireside along with the rest of your
      bread baking supplies.  

Thanks!

Also, French bread usually has less leavening and sugar than other types
of bread, so it needs to rise longer to rise the same amount as other types
of bread.  Sweet breads, I think, rise faster than other breads because
the extra sugar serves as extra food for the yeast.  White Bread is the
default setting for most loaves of bread.

For Christmas, my wife bought me the _Bread Machine Cookbook II_ by
Donna German.  I've tried two recipes so far, and neither of them
has been very good.  The first, "Corny Bread" was dense and unappetizing.
The second, "Quick Sour Bread" was tasteless.  She makes no mention of
Welbilt machines (the one I have) so I don't think she really had
this machine in mind when writing the book.

...but she does mention the DAK, which is identical to the Welbilt....

Valerie, have you made any bread with recipe from the book?

I have volume 1 of the Donna German series.  My two favorite bread recipes
both come from there.  In general, you want to watch the loaf as the
machine starts kneading and add another tablespoon or so of water if it
seems like a good idea.  (I usually go overboard with the extra water and
end up with loaves that taste fine but have weird sunken tops.)

Does anybody out there in breadmakerland have volume 4 of the Donna German
series?  That's the volume with the whole-grain bread recipes.  Do those
come out tasting OK?

My sister has it and of the four volumes has found I and IV, her 
favorites.  The only bread I've made out of the BMMII book is Lois'
Country Bread and it was wonderful both times I tried it.

We now have 5 bread machine books.  I hope I don't get too fat.

Hey - I invented a bread machine recipe today and it came out yummy!
This is based on _L & L Bakers' Dill Bread_ in _Bread Machine Magic_.
They say this recipe is the one that inspired them to write the book.
Here it is with my modifications:

1/4 cup milk
1/4 cup water, plus 2 tablespoons for Welbilt/DAK, plus some more
1 egg
2 cups bread flour
1 cup rye flour
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1 1/2 tablespoons butter
3 tablespoons sugar
1/3 cup lowfat cottage cheese
1/3 cup cream cheese or Neufchatel cheese
1 tablespoon dried dill weed
1 tablespoon dried parsley flakes
1 1/2 teaspoons yeast (3 teaspoons for Panasonic/National and 2 teaspoons
      for 1 1/2 pound Welbilt/DAK machines.

Bake it on the light crust setting.  Mmmm!

Sounds wonderful.  I'll try it soon and get back with how it 
came out.  Thanks for posting it.

Here are a couple of tried and true favorite recipes:

  **  English Muffin Bread **

                  Small Loaf         Large Loaf
water             1 cup + 1 1/2 Tbsp.     1 1/4 cup
sugar             1 1/4 tsp.              2 tsp.
salt              2/3 tsp.                1 tsp.
baking soda       1/8 tsp.                1/4 tsp.
bread flour       2 cups                  3 cups
Non-fat dry milk  2 Tbsp.                 3 Tbsp.
yeast             1 1/2 tsp.              2 tsp.

Bake on regular crust setting.  This bread makes especially 
wonderful toast.  From: _The Bread Machine Cookbook_, by Donna
German.


  ** Catskill Mountain Rye Bread **

4 Tbsp. gluten
3 Tbsp. non-fat dry milk
1 3/4 cup bread flour
1 cup rye flour
1 Tbsp. caraway seeds
1 tsp. salt
1 cup water
1 Tbsp. vegetable oil
2 Tbsp. honey
1 tsp. yeast

Bake on light crust setting.  This recipe is from the Prodigy
Breads by Machine conference.  I'm sorry I don't remember the name
of the woman who developed the recipe.  It's wonderful.  

Thanks!  I'll give these a try.  Do they sell gluten at Fireside?

The PFC has it.

Fireside sells gluten.  I tend to add it to almost every loaf
that calls for more than 1 cup of whole wheat flour at 1 tsp./cup.
It resides it its own little Rubbermaid container on the bread
shelf in the refrigerator. ;-)

Do you have to refrigerate it?

I think I read somewhere that it's better to do so.  I'll ask
on Prodigy.

Where is Fireside?  I'm not familiar with it.

On Huron, between the homeless shelter and the railroad tracks on
the north side of the street.  They've got a pretty big sign
out on the street.

 The store itself is not easily visible if you drive by.  There's a
large unpaved parking lot for the Word-of-God &c building immediately
adjacent; Say Cheese is at the back of that building, and Fireside
is in an old barn-type building behind it.  

Yes, and they have a lot of other interesting things besides bread-
making stuff.  I loaded up on loose tea last time I was there.  And no,
I didn't see "constant comment."  (I can't stand the tast of Bigelow
teas, anyway.  They remind me of Bigelow carpets.)

The current issue of the Internet's Breadmaker Digest talks about adapting
non-machine bread recipes for use in bread machines.  One person says
you simply need to divide the recipe down to have the right amount of flour
for your machine.  (In other words, if a recipe calls for 6 or 7 cups of
flour, divide by 2 or 3 to end up with the right amount of flour for your
machine.  My machine takes something like 1.5 to 3 cups of flour, according
to the instruction manual.)  Another person says to divide the recipe down
to the right amount of flour, then adjust the liquid to have a certain ratio
of liquid to flour.  They say you need to adapt the amount of yeast to
whatever is right for your machine, an amount you'll come to know with
practice.  I'm now looking eagerly at my non-machine bread recipes and
planning to try making lots of them.

Has anybody else out there tried adapting non-machine bread recipes to
use in their breadmaker?  How did it work out?
Do you have any advice to share?

My millet bread recipe was certainly not originally for the bread
machine, and I used to make it by hand.  I adapted it about 4 years
ago, so I don't remember some details, but I think the flour/water
ratio came out about right.  What I had to adjust, by taste, was
the spices -- the bread machine version intensified some flavors, 
so I didn't put in as much.  And the millet itself didn't get
properly softened in the bread machine, so I didn't put in as much
of that (then I found millet meal, and then I started using pre-
softened millet, so I've gone back to almost the original proportion).
Also, come to think of it, the original called for a higher
proportion of white flour and somewhere along the line I switched
to 2 cups whole/1 cup unbleached because that's what I use in 
my other regular recipes.

One of our breadbooks has a "formulae" you can use to adapt
existing recipies.  Apparently, many of the recipies in that book
were adapted.  I'll go hunt it down next time I remember to, and
post the "formulae" in this conference.

Reading through the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book side by side with
Bread Machine Magic, I noticed a number of very similar recipes.
Something tells me we are not the first people to think of adapting
recipes to bread machines.

I successfully adapted a non-machine recipe to the bread machine!
The results were good but not spectacular, but they did show that this can
be done.  This recipe seems like it would be very good with raisins added to
it.  Also, I'll probably increase the amount of honey next time I bake
this.  Note that my bread machine is a Welbilt, which means I need to add
extra liquid, and then my machine seems to need extra liquid even beyond
what the average Welbilt needs, so you may want to start with less water and
work your way up.  I divided the actual recipe by 3, so some of the
measurements are strange; use your imagination to figure out how to measure
7/9 cup of water.

Here's the recipe:

Felicity Turner's Slightly Fanatic Dream Whole-Grain Bread
----------------------------------------------------------
2 cups water
1/6 cup wheat berries
1/3 medium potato, scrubbed and diced
1 tablespoon honey
1 1/2 teaspoons yeast
2/3 teaspoon salt
1/3 cup gluten flour
1/3 cup stone-ground yellow cornmeal
2 cups stone-ground whole wheat flour

Boil 1 cup water and the wheat berries for 1 to 1 1/4 hours, until the
wheat berries have started to pop open and are fairly tender.

Boil potato in 2/3 cups water, then simmer until very soft, around 20 minutes.

Combine the liquid from the wheat berries and the potato and add water
until you have 7/9 cup of liquid.  Heat or cool the liquid until it is luke
warm.

Dump all ingredients into the bread machine and make some bread!

Depending on how whole you want your wheat berries to end up, you might want
to add them at the raisin beep instead of at the beginning.


The original recipe came from _Dairy Hollow House Soup and Bread
A Country Inn Cookbook_ by Crescent Dragonwagon.  This is a fun cookbook
with lots of Ozark mountains Bed and Breakfast stories and recipes.  It's
the kind of cookbook one would give as a gift to the Remmerses.  I love the
author's name -- it sounds like something she picked out herself, and I
keep wondering how she chose it.

A couple of weeks ago, I checked out _The Best Bread Machine Cookbook
Ever_ from the main library.  I liked this book.  It had a lot of
unique recipes.  I made challah bread using the recipe from this book
and it turned out much more like real challah that the bread made with
the recipe in Bread Machine Magic.  And, if you check it out of the
library, the price isn't too bad, either.

Couldja post it?  I've been looking for a good challah recipe.  Thanks!

Challah (from _The Best Bread Machine Cookbook Ever_)

2-1/2 teaspoons dry yeast
2-3/4 cups plus 1 tablespoon (!) bread flour
1/4 cup sugar
3/4 teaspoon salt
3-1/2 tablespoons vegetable oil
3 egg yolks
1 cup water

I adjusted these amounts slightly.  My bread machine (the same model
as yours, Valerie) usually takes three cups of flour, so that is what
I put in.  I also put in a little more water and flour.  I think I
used three teaspoons of yeast and a whole teaspoon of salt.

I got me a copy of volume IV of the Donna German breadmaker book series.
Volume IV is the one with whole grains and natural sweeteners.  I tried
making the first recipe in the book: whole wheat bread, with honey for a
sweetener.  It came out (IMO) disgustingly sweet.  Bear in mind, though,
that I have a much lower-than-average tolerance for sweetness in bread.
Also, I've noticed that some store-bought whole wheat bread has little
brown flecks in it.  Bread with the flecks generally seems to taste
yummier.  I'm guessing that the flecks are either wheat germ or wheat
bran.  Does anybody know for sure what they are?

I'd hate to speculate on the contents of processed food...just reading
the govt. standards for various quantities of <ick> and <yuck> and
<what!> is enough to make me lose my appetite.  I'd hope those flecks
are what you guess them to be...but you never know...

Some whole-wheat flour has flecks in it -- in my experience, the
grocery-store 5-lb-bag kind occasionally does, the FORC 25-or-50-lb-
bag doesn't, but this may be coincidence.
How much honey did that recipe call for?  My millet bread uses
honey as its sweetener, & you liked that -- I think the original
recipe may have said 1/2 cup for the loaf, but I never look it up
any more, I use somewhere between 2 Tbsp and 1/4 cup.

This had 1/3 cup honey for 3 cups of flour.

Has anybody else used recipes from this book with good results?
If so, which recipes did you like best?

re #98 -- I was scooping flour from a tub into jars this afternoon,
sitting outside in the sun, and noticed the pleasantly speckled
appearance of the flour.  Maybe all whole wheat flour has these,
just the color contrast is greater in some.

According to the Donna German book I just bought, most whole wheat flour is
milled and separated into the bran, the germ, and the rest of the flour.
The "rest of the flour" is defatted., because the fat turns rancid very
quickly.  Then, to make whole wheat flour, the germ and bran is added back
in again.  Donna German suggests milling your own flour because it's much
less processed than this.

I know other foods, such as brown sugar, were processed this way, but this
is the first time I've heard such claims about whole wheat flour.  Does
anybody know if this is true?

Maybe some whole wheat flour has more brown flecks than others because more
bran/germ/whatever is added back in?  Or maybe those flecks are sprouts or
something?  (I sure hope the "or something" isn't Kent's "or something"!)

Pat, my much older sister, has been making most of her breads
from recipes from German IV, and has reported good results.  I'll
ask her which are her favorites.

I make an intentional "freckle" bread by soaking a half cup
of Grapenuts cereal in  a quarter cup honey and a quarter cup 
hot water.  Try adding it to you bread. (Of course, after
the water has cooled so you won't kill the little yeasties)
I have no clue how this would work in a bread machine.
I used to bake bread on the side. (40-50 loaves a weekend and
all by hand) ugh
!

Help!  I put all the ingredients into my Welbilt R2-D2 model bread machine,
pressed Play, and nothing happened except that it made a click noise and
the kneading light came on.  I checked all of the troubleshooting
instructions in the manual and none of them apply.  The machine may be
confused because I tried to put it on a timer cycle and then changed my
mind -- but I unplugged it and replugged it, just to be sure it didn't have
some funny setting set.

Has anybody else seen this problem?  Was there a solution short of buying a
new bread machine?

At some point there was a list of DAK troubleshooting instructions that
arrived in the bread machine digest.  I thought I'd saved it, but when I
went to read the file I found an old piece of e-mail from someone else,
instead.  Does anybody else have a copy of this list that they could
upload for me?  Thanks!

My Welbilt has never done this.  Other than forgetting to put in the paddle,
or forgetting to put in the sealing ring, I've never had any trouble from
"operator error."

Ook.  Missing the sealing ring could get messy!

Well, I called Welbilt customer service, twice, and left messages asking
them to call me back.  They called back the next day.  The person I talked
to was no help at all.  She basically had me press Stop and Start a few
times.  Then she gave me a list of about 6 places that repair Welbilt
breadmakers in Michigan.  The nearest one is 2 or 3 hours away from here.
(Gracel tells me there's a place here in Ann Arbor that repairs Welbilts).

Meanwhile, the bread ingredients sat in the bread machine 'til I figured
out a good way to remove them.  Within about 24 hours at least three
additional life forms appeared in the bread machine.  Eeeeeeeew!  I ended
up dumping the breadmaker contents into a plastic bag on the porch, then
washing everything *very* thoroughly.  Gross!  :(

I called every appliance repair place in town.  The large appliance
places categorically wouldn't touch it.  One large appliance person
suggested that I buy a new machine, since a repair was going to cost at
least half the price of the machine.  The two small appliance places
(really branches of the same place) said they do fix breadmakers, but
not Welbilts.  One of them treated me to a mini-lecture that I shouldn't
buy appliances without making sure they can be repaired here.

I posted a request on the bread machine digest to see if anybody else
had dealt with this problem.  I've got lots of e-mail, ranging from the
useless ("your dough hook wasn't in the machine" (completely wrong))
to possibly useful ("Welbilts are famous for burning out their motors"
and "my Welbilt had the same thing happen and it was a cheap burned-out
fuse.  You can open it up and replace it easily.").  I'm voting on the
fuse idea as the best-fitting theory so far.  Now I need to get brave
and figure out how to open it up.

Have fun.  I tried getting inside our (former) one - different kind of
problem.  (Then again, it's well known that I'm pretty inept when it
comes to mechanical devices.)

Cheer up, popcorn, it's already broken and you're considering buying
a new one to replace it...taking it apart won't make your situation
much worse.  I always tell myself that some person with a high school
diploma put this darn appliance together, so I ought to be able to
figure it out also.  Of course, the person at the factory had a special
tool...and if they sonically-welding things, that can be a pain...  :)
  I'm always surprised at the number of appliances I find being tossed
that literallly have nothing wrong other than a blown fuse (now if the
blown fuse was caused by something more complicated than trying to
knead heavy dough and overloading the motor, that's a different story,
but fuses are relatively cheap and if the one inside is blown...replace
it and see how long it lasts).  Broken rubber belts are also common 
(although I don't know if a bread machine has one).
  Observe common sense safety precautions--unplug the machine, for
example--and go slowly (don't remove screws and bolts totally until
you can see what is coming loose and whether they look like the have
blind nuts or are spring-loaded, you might be wise to make diagrams of
the way things go back together, especially if they are parts that may
be reversed due to confusion, don't be afraid to make felt tip marks on
parts or other indications of how things connect, etc.).  Egg cartons and
small plastic or glass containers are handy for keeping screws and other
small parts safe and separated (pill bottles are great).  Find a work
table with plenty of room and go to it.  Good luck!

Thanks for the encouragement!!

even sonic welded joints are attackable with a scalpel and crazy glue to put 
it back together.

Yup, but they are more of a pain than removing four or five screws, not
to mention that the re-assembly usually leaves something to be desired
in terms of appearance even if you are careful.  Depends on how
desperate you are to get inside that critter, I guess...

The fuse theory sounds good to me, too.  If you'd like, you can bring
it over here and we'll open it up.  Since I've got one of these 
beasts, too, it would be interesting for me to see what's inside.

Well, how's the repair going?

Valerie brought the machine over, we took it apart, but were unable
to locate any fuses.  We decided to give up.

<sigh>

Is the machine still possessed by someone? 

(or someTHING?  :^)

Yup, I still have it.  My current plan is to sit down with it and
reassemble it, then run the self-test sequence from the DAK troubleshooting
list (which I finally got hold of).

cool - keep in touch.

I'd like to get a copy of that troubleshooting list.  Mine seems to
be purring along nicely, but you never know...

"!zcat /u/popcorn/DAK*" to see it.

/u/popcorn/DAK*.gz: No such file or directory

A quick session with find suggests that it should be
/u/popcorn/misc/DAK*

And indeed that works.

oops... sorry!

Well, we've had our bread machine about two-and-one-half years
now and I still use it regularly and find it a good investment.
As I type there is a loaf of whole wheat sunflower seed bread
baking that will be used for breakfast tomorrow.  In the beginning
I spend a lot of time trying new recipes, that phase has passed.
Now I'm down to about 10 tried-and-true favorites that are about
all I make.

Sounds like more variety than we get buying bread at the grocery
store, chelsea.  I'd say that's one big advantage of a bread
machine...  Me, I still make a nut bread or zuchinni bread once
in a while (the old fashioned way :).  Haven't been able to afford
a bread machine, although they seem to be dropping a bit in price.

Ja, Damark has rebuilt Welbilts for about $100.  I'm tempted, but my
last machine was a Welbilt and I think I want something fancier next
time (once I'm willing to spring for the money, which could be a
while).  Something with programmable rise times, a cast iron pan, a
separate yeast dispenser, and who knows what other bells and whistles.
Unlike Mary, I never did stop baking mostly new recipes, so I'd like to
have a bread machine I could use to play games with sourdoughs and
all kinds of obscure bread experiments.

Brent and I received a bread machine as a wedding present, and we have
baked and consumed our first loaf--whole wheat.  Suffice it to say, we 
are converts!  One question I have for all the old hands out there:  
we got a few cookbooks and are eager to try just about everything in
them, but I was disappointed to not find a recipe for zucchini bread,
one of my all-time favorites.  If someone could post one or mail me one
I would REALLY appreciate it!  (as I would any words of advice as well)

From _The Bread Machine Cookbook_ (volume 1) by Donna German

Zucchini Wheat Bread
                        small           medium          large
shredded zucchini       1/2 cup         3/4 cup         1 cup
water                   1/2 cup         3/4 cup         1 cup
vegetable oil           2 tbs           3 tbs           1/4 cup
honey                   2 tbs           3 tbs           1/4 cup
salt                    2/3 tsp         1 tsp           1 1/3 tsp
grated orange peel      2/3 tsp         1 tsp           1 1/3 tsp
wheat germ              2 1/2 tsp       1/4 cup         5 tbs
whole wheat flour       1 cup           1 1/2 cups      2 cups
bread flour             1 cup           1 1/2 cups      2 cups
yeast                   1 tsp           1 1/2 tsp       2 1/2 tsp

The author notes that toasting the zucchini brings out a stronger flavor.

Note that I've never tried making this recipe; can't vouch for whether it's
any good or not.


I've got another Zucchini-Wheat Bread recipe, and a Zucchini-Carrot
bread recipe that I can post if you're interested.  Haven't tried any
of them.

That's great, Amy!  It's been a year and a half for me, and I haven't
bought a loaf of bread in all that time.

A thousand thanks for the zucchini bread recipe...the smell is wafting
from my kitchen as I type, and I can't wait!

we are boring...all we've made so far (repetedly at least!) is egg and 
potato breads.  also, haven't gotten my hands on any of the donna german
books, 'cause we've been out of them at work, but i've been looking at a few
others.  and the machine we cheated on...somebody used it and returned it,
and since it was the brand that had gone on clearance...well...it cost us
23.99.  :)

Wow, if that's the Williams-Sonoma National bread machine you got
quite a deal there.  I have the same machine but with the Panasonic
name and I paid a few hundred more three years ago.

If indeed you do have the National 1 1/2 pounder do I have a recipe
for you!  Two, actually.  Once for a whole-grain style bread called
Poulsbo bread, the other for a wonderful French style loaf.  

Let me know if you want 'em.

i only have the 1 lb machine...:(

well, i just tried the catskills french bread that is listed quite a ways
back...the first loaf lasted 3 hours, and the second one is in the maker
even as i type!  :)  absolutely WONDERFUL stuff!!!!  :)

quick question..are most of the recipes here for the 1 or the 1.5 lb machines?

Anything calling for over 2 1/2 cups of dry ingredients would probably
be best left to the larger machines, especially if heavier whole-grain
flours, oatmeal, or nuts are involved.  If you overload a machine you
run the risk of burning out the motor during the kneeding process.

Anyone else have experience here?  I can't remember where I read the
above, but am pretty sure the figure was 2 1/2 cups.

well, ive used one that was for a 1 lb machine, and used almost 3 cups flour...

We suddenly had to replace our machine, and now have a Zojirushi.
In some ways it's nicer than the DAK machines we've had before,
and in some ways just different, and in some ways less convenient.

Notably: this says to add the liquids first.  Does anyone know, 
is this essential?  What is likely to happen if I do it the other
way (besides that I only use one set of measuring spoons and
fewer ingredients get left behind in them)?  The documentation
only talks about the need to separate the yeast from the liquids; 
Dave suggests that maybe the thermostat needs to have the warm
(or otherwise) liquid on the bottom.

I got the impression that my Welbilt needed to have dry ingredients added
first to stop the liquid ingredients from leaking out past the rubber seal
at the bottom.  People with machines where you add the liquid ingredients
first, then the dry ingredients, and finally the yeast, seem to think that
their method keeps the yeast better insulated from the liquid ingredients --
a consideration that's mostly useful only if you tend to make bread on the
timer cycle.

I'd be interested to hear more about your impressions of the differences
between the two machines.  I'm in the market for eventually buying a new bread
machine to replace my old dead one.

To answer my own question: I've done it both ways now, with no obvious
problems. Never with the delayed-start option, true.
More detailed impressions:

The DAK had a visible clock.  Its "present time" had to be set (whether 
correctly or not) every time the machine was plugged in, and the machine
could tell me *exactly* when the current loaf would be all done.
Whatever timer is in this Zojirushi is not visible -- it tells me what
cycle it's in, and sometimes when less than 30 minutes is left in the
cycle, but that's about it.

The DAK was round, with a glass dome lid; the Zoj. is roundedly 
rectangular, with a flat lid, not *quite* as high as the DAK was at
its peak.  The Zoj. takes up slightly more counter space, but
also *different* space -- narrower but deeper, the way I have it.
Also the Zoj. is not as heavy, and doesn't get as hot on top (these
may both relate to that glass DAK lid). (Because its cover is opaque,
however, I didn't notice the time I had neglected to put in the
dough hook thingie -- in the DAK, when I did that, it was obvious
that stuff wasn't going round and round)

The DAK was always a bit more trouble to clean than its advertising
claims -- the pan's nonstick surface came clean enough, but the dough
hook was not particularly nonstick and stuff stuck to it with a
vengeance, while the spindle could not even be taken out to clean.  
In the Zoj. the dough hook (they call it something else) is a hard 
plastic that cleans quickly & easily; the pan-including-spindle seems
easier to clean but that may be because it's still new.  And in the
Zoj., because of the Great Advantage that ingredients do not have to
be carried separately *into* the cooking unit, the cooking unit itself
almost doesn't need cleaning.  (In the Zoj., as in many others but not
the DAK, the mixing apparatus is part of the pan.  This makes cleanup
easier (as noted), and allows ingredients to be added wherever it's
convenient to do so.)

Our two DAKs, when mixing, always were fairly loud.  The most recent
one, that we remember most clearly, sounded as though it might
not make it, and vibrated enough to walk off the counter once.  The
Zoj, in mixing, is quiet enough to have made Dave wonder whether it
was working.  The pan is clipped in place at the top, which also reduces
overall vibration.  Dave finds this a *great* improvement.

The Zoj.'s lid hinges are inferior.  The entire lid comes off easily,
which is probably a net advantage; but if it's not properly seated
before it's lowered, the plastic of the lid is strained.  Dave said that
the shelf model in the store had serious breakage at these points.

The DAK had a fan-driven cooling cycle.  The Zoj. lacks any such
thing -- possibly another reason it's so much lighter is the lack of
a fan? -- and recommends that you remove the bread immediately after
it's through baking, which won't always be convenient.  We have not
yet tried leaving a loaf in after baking, to see what happens.

The loaves are, obviously, a different shape; the squarish loaves
somehow look smaller to me than the round ones, though they're 
probably not.  Each has its own slicing problems & advantages.

The DAK had 4 cycle choices (white, French, sweet, manual) and a
control for darkness of crust.  The Zoj. offers white bread for
dry or fresh milk; raisin bread for dry or fresh milk; sweet bread/
cake; dough -- and no darkness control.  So far I have not done
much experimenting, just tried to keep ahead of family consumption
with standard fare.  

Prodigy has an *extremely* active bread machine conference which
I check out from time to time.  The overwhelming feeling over 
there is that the Zoji is a better machine than the DAK.  The
DAK is supposed to have an inclination to commit Dakside, where
it simply waddles off of the kitchen counter during the kneed 
cycle, and crashes to it's death.  Also, the seals around the
glass dome are supposed to be the first thing to go, within
a year of regular use.  Don't know.  Never had one but these
problems sure get a lot of, "Hey, mine did that too!" type
remarks.

People with Zojis tend to not report as many problems and generally
rave about the machine.

I've had a Panasonic 1 1/2 lb. capacity machine for about, what is
it now, 3 years?  No problems.  Works great.  I'd buy it again.

(Our Zoji was bought partly for reasons of price.  So far, I think, it's
been more than adequate.  I think the first couple of loaves had rather
overdone crusts, leading to some muttering about the lack of a darkness
control, but I haven't noticed this recently.  I'm the consumer, not
the user, I hasten to add.)

I have a Toastmaster that works quite well, but haven't done much
experimenting with it.  I would like to know where you can mail-order gluten.
 Anyone know?

King Arthur Flour Catalog has it.  It's probably the Rolls Royce of gluten.
I'd have to do some digging to find their phone number, or you might be able
to find it by calling 1-800-555-1212 and asking for their number.

or, (and it would probably be alot cheaper...) is thder a bulk food
store near you?  if so, that's the way to go......  

But do they *have* gluten?  I think that is how the question arose.

i know that mine does, so....:)

and williams-sonoma sells it..by catalog..:)

If you get stuck finding this I'd be willing to mail you a
batch or two.  In Ann Arbor we are very fortunate to have a
good baking supply store called Fireside Grocery and Deli.
Bulk Red Star yeast, all kinds of flour,  dried berries, and
gluten are all available and reasonably priced.

i usually get mine at by the pound.....how dos it compare to fireside, do you
know?

Thanks chelsea...I'd appreciate it...you see, I live in very RURAL WV.  You
can read hillbillies and an expanding economy which includes prisons and
fastfood places.  Email me at freezelandfreida@citynet.net     Thanks

Seriously, King Arthur does mail order of gluten and suchlike.
Even if you don't end up buying from them, their catalog is worth
checking out.

I will check out King Arthur.  and wasn't there some place called Walnut Acres
or some such?

Well, I went and bought one.  A Panasonic.  Pretty good first loaf, although
the included recipe did look a bit suspicious.

I have a Panasonic, bought three years ago, that I've been very 
pleased with overall.  Any problems I've had have always been due
to operator error, like forgetting to add yeast.

Do you need a few recipes to get started?

Probably some basic wheat bread recipes to start.  The included ones seem a
bit odd somehow, although the one I did first tasted good.

I can loan you my breadmaker books, since I'm not going to be using them
anytime soon.

the panasonic is good, but expensive!!!!  what size did you get?

1.5# size.  Still getting used to it, and hoping to make some non-hocky puck
loaves soon (first loaf was great, but white bread)

i've got the 1 lb size, and have had no problems with it, aside from human
rrors.....if you have alot of problems with it, it could be a problem with
the machine itself....

It's more a matter of ingredients.  I made my 4th loaf today (actually
overnight :) ) with a different mix of flour, etc. and more yeast, and it
looks good.  Still eating the last one, however.  Dadroc sent me mail saying
that it took him *months* to get to where he had consistent results.

are you just playing, or using regular recipes?

Psst... In the event anyone here is thinking of buying a bread machine...
Hudson's is selling the Panasonic 1 1/2 pound capacity machine
for $149.00, tomorrow.  I'm not sure if the sale is a one day
thing or goes on a while.  But it's a very good price.

Scott, here is a tried-n-true recipe for Seven Grain Bread, adapted from
_Bread Machine Magic_, that works just fine in a Panasonic.  Good, hearty
bread, but not ultra dense and heavy. 

             *** Seven Grain Bread***

      1 1/2 lb. loaf               l lb. loaf
   
      7/8 cup water                5/8 cup water
      1 egg                        1 egg
      1 1/4 cup bread flour        1 cup bread flour
      1 1/4 cup whole wheat flour  2/3 cup whole wheat flour
      1/2 cup seven grain cereal   1/3 cup seven grain cereal
      1 1/2 tsp. salt              1 tsp. salt
      2 Tbsp. oil                  1 1/2 Tbsp. oil
      2 Tbsp. honey                1 1/2 Tbsp. honey
      4 1/2 tsp. yeast             2 tsp. yeast

      Bake on light setting.  

Thanks!

Oh, forgot one thing.  I didn't have this on my recipe card
because it do it automatically.  For each cup of whole grain
flour I use in a recipe I also add one tablespoon of gluten.
Even for the 1 lb. recipe calling for 2/3 cup of whole wheat
I'd add a tablespoon.  I find this makes a big difference and
mostly eliminates those short heavy loaves I used to otherwise
get from time to time.

Would you also like a recipe for bread machine French bread?
It's very good with pasta dishes and entree salads.

popcorn loaned me her bread machine books, so I don't think I'll be needing
recipes right away.  I still have to make it thru those.

Re 162: Ann Arbor Vacuum and Small Appliance Center (their name is something
like that) has been advertising Panasonic bread machines for $139 for a few
weeks now.

You can also get oddball brands of bread machine at Meijer's for something
like $89.

My wife spotted an ad for Welbilts for only $60!  I think they're finally
starting to get cheaper.  

Mary, I'd like that recipe for French bread.  I have one that I've been using,
but perhaps yours is better.

You got it.  This is cripsy on the outside and soft and airy
on the inside with a "spongy" texture.  Addictive stuff.

    ** French Honey Bread **
    
    3 cups bread flour
    1 tsp. sugar
    1 tsp. salt
    1 1/8 cup water
    1 Tbsp. honey
    1 Tbsp. olive oil
    2 1/2 tsp. yeast

i take it that this is for a 1.5 lb?  (sigh)  nothing is ever for 1 lb's...

Yeah, a 1.5 lb. loaf.  Sorry.

It's easy enough to convert it....

I have a 1.5 lb. machine, but I've only made ~1 lb. loaves so far... The size
is just about right.

I'm excited!  I ordered a new breadmaker.  Didn't expect it to arrive for
another 2 weeks or so, but it arrived today.  It's a Zojirushi.  It has
zillions of bells and whistles.  I'm about to go make my first loaf.
Cool beans!

I've heard nothing but raves about that brand.  Great!
Now Valerie will be trying all sorts of new breads
and we'll get to ask for the recipes!

I'm eating from my first loaf of bread as I type this.  I used the recipe from
response 76 of this item.  My yeast is several months old, and I didn't have
any bread flour on hand: two big strikes against the chances of getting out
a decent loaf of bread.  But the bread came out wonderful anyway.  I'm very
pleased!

A few years ago I had cut way down on the amount of sugar I was eating, but
over the last year or so I've been eating more junk food than I oughtta again.
I'm wondering if I started eating more junk when my old breadmaker died. 
It'll be interesting to see if the new breadmaker has any affect.

my bread machine has been a bit flakey lately, but still workable.
except for last time when it got stuck on the 'knead' cycle. good thing i was
home so i  could rescue it.

congrats on the new bread machine, valerie.

I finally bought me some new yeast.  I used it yesterday to make a loaf of
oatmeal whole wheat bread.  This was the first bread from my new machine that
wasn't overly dense.  In fact, it might well be the best loaf of breadmaker
bread I've ever made.  Yum!

A few days ago I tried making cinamon rolls with the breadmaker.  It made the
dough, and from there I made the rolls.  They came out looking very pretty
but tasting boring.  Maybe it was the yeast.  Does anybody have a cinamon roll
recipe they like?  I used the one from Bread Machine Magic, which does some
clever things like using dental floss to cut the rolls apart, and putting the
icing in the bottom of the baking pan so that you just invert the pan and have
ready-iced rolls.  They were OK, but not amazing.

i normaly use the recipe from betty crocker, but i'm not really sure how to 
adapt that to a bread machine...but i'm sure that with some playing, you could
do it fairly well!  :)

I hereby declare that society has reached Bread Machine Saturation.
Up until recently, breadmaker bread was this rare and wonderful gift
that breadmaker owners could show up with, and the recipients would
be suitably awed and delighted.  But in the past several days I've been
given no fewer (and maybe more) than 5 loaves of bread.  They're all
yummy, but *wow* is that a lot of bread!

Oops.

Hey, it was good bread.  Thanks!

<dave notes that "was" is a hopeful sign, in this context>

A friend of mine gives me bread every time she comes through town. She started
baking during the *long* year when she lived in one state and her husband
lived part of the week in another, and she discovered that kneading and
punching the dough was good for relieving graduate school jitters.

Mine is getting a workout, which is good, since it means it was worth buying.
I just this week realized that instead of buying bagels for snacks at work,
I can make raisin bread instead.  I don't even have to do it in bagel form,
just as long as I have something to munch that is close to a raisin bagel.

We recently received some new junk mail, a catalog.  It featured a bread
machine which apparently makes *only* bagels, costing approximately the same
as a normal bread machine.  Get in on the ground floor, folks.

How many bagels at a time?

thank you, i'll still keep making my bagles by hand....

And I'll still keep buying my bagels by store.

Re #187:  apparently 4.  We have no plans to buy the thing, either, but
for anyone who's interested:
This is from a catalog called "CHEF'S CATALOG(r)", Winter 1996, $3.00
(but we got it free, for whatever reason).  The cover says it's
"PROFESSIONAL RESTAURANT EQUIPMENT FOR THE HOME CHEF", and the bagel machine
is the cover item.  Description (p. 3):

    "I Love Bagels!"         [headline, large type]
    Imagine baking fresh, hot bagels at home the easy way.  Anytime
    you want fresh-baked, wholesome, homemade bagels, the
    Breadman(r) "I Love Bagels" Bagel Bakery will bake them
    automatically, at the touch of a button.  Bake crispy or chewy
    New York Style bagels, mini-bagels, or the lighter "steamed"
    bagel.  Simply start with your own fresh dough and the Bagel
    Bakery does all the rest.  Enjoy 4 scrumptious, warm, fresh
    boiled and baked full-size bagels in just minutes.  Features
    rotary timer, automatic convection cycle, boiling/baking
    chamber, vented baking tray with nonstick surface for crispy
    crusts and easy cleanup.  Compact 12Hx14Wx10"D. 1300 wattts.
    Includes recipes and video instructions.
    
    6164  Bagel Bakery, reg. $149.99, introductory special 129.99

I emphasize that we not only have no stake in the success of either
manufacturer or vendor, we have no experience with the thing; on typing it
in I realize that I'd earlier failed to note that you're supposed to start
with *dough* not ingredients!  Hmmph.  So I guess you use your bread machine
to make the dough, then use this to bake it?   8-{)}

They also offer, on the same page, a bagel-slicing frame, bagel mixes,
bagel toppings (garlic flakes, semase seeds, poppy seeds, & onion flakes),
and a recipe book.

If anyone cares, the phone # on the cover is 1-800-338-3232.  Don't give
them *our* "customer #" ...

that sounds like  a crock....if you've already got the dough, then it's a
sinch to roll them, boil them, and bake them on your own...it may take
longer to do so, but.....

I remember asking somewhere, a long time ago, what people spread on their
bread other than butter.  Butter is wonderful, but nasty for the arteries.
None of the suggestions made then was entirely satisfactory to me.

About a year ago, my family took me to a restaurant in NYC called Josie's,
where they serve a sweet potato or winter squash puree to put on their bread.
I think they add some tahini and cumin.  Since then, I've run across, or
cooked myself, several variants on this theme.  It's wonderful on bread,
and on crackers too.  Unless you use tahini, it's non-fat.  It's delicious,
nutritious, and a beautiful shade of bright orange -- I'm pleased!

I'd be interested in the recipes, especially for the sweet potato
spread.  Please?

We use a product called Olive-it which is a 50:50 mixture of butter and Olive
oil (I think).  It's pretty good.

Re 193: Basically, you cook either sweet potatoes or a sweet-flavored winter
squash.  Puree the flesh.  Optionally add a spoonful of tahini, a few shakes
of cinamon, a pinch of cumin, and/or a handful of raisins.

I've a hunch that canned pumpkin, straight from the can, would do just fine.

I'm starting to refer to mine as a "bread compiler".  :)

I had a bread machine adventure the other day.  Since bread in my new machine
tends not to rise very high, I fearlessly loaded it with a very large recipe.
The large recipe rose and rose, and at the beginning of the bake cycle it
spilled over the rim of the pan and down onto the baking coils.  I turned off
the machine, dumped the contents down the sink, and cleaned up.  Then, the
next time I loaded up the machine and pressed Start, the machine said "10"
and wouldn't do anything.  I pressed Reset.  No go.  I looked up "10" in my
manual.  No explanation.  I bonked on Reset again.  No go.  I called the Zoji
technical support number and reached a recording telling me that they'd be
open again on the next business day (this was Sunday).  I unplugged and
replugged the machine and pressed Reset again.  No go.  I bonked on reset
several times.  No go.  I unplugged it again, pressed Reset, and "10" went
away.  I pressed Start, and the machine, evidently deciding that it had made
its point, made a perfectly lovely loaf of bread.

Has anybody tried to make things like banana bread in the bread machine?  What
kind of luck have you had?  Whenever I try to make a traditional "sweet" bread
like banana, it always turns out dry.  Is this because it is a yeast bread?
When I make the traditional batter type of "sweet" bread, I never have a
problem.  Any suggestions?

It could well be.  Dunno; the one time I loaded up my old bread machine with
banana and things, that was the time the machine decided not to start again,
ever.  I haven't quite worked up the guts to try anything involving bananas
in the new machine just yet.

Bread machines are oriented towards yeast breads, with lots of kneading and
2 or more rise cycles.  Don't know how well sweet breads would fare in that
environment, although higher tech machines like popcorn's might have a special
setting for that.

I pulled this out of a recent issue of the bread machine digest.
(The currently posted issue arrived this morning, so it's too soon
to replace it with an even more recent issue that arrived this afternoon. 
But this is from this afternoon's arrival, which I'll post in the next day
or so.)  You have to stare at some of the later steps for them to make sense,
but it looks like this is a way to mathematically convert recipes for your
bread machine.  Personally, I've had good luck dividing recipes down to one
loaf's worth, adjusting the yeast to whatever my machine usually takes for
one loaf, and then adding water or flour as the machine runs 'til the dough
consistency looks right.  But if you're looking for a mathematical way to
convert recipes, this is much more scientific.  -Valerie

From: Gerard_Mcmahon@ftdetrck-ccmail.army.mil
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 11:21:57 EST
Subject: Recipe conversion

     Hi all,
     
     I have attached a text copy of the bread recipe conversion.  This is 
     taken from Quick and Delicious Bread Machine recipes by Norman 
     Garrett, without permission.  I have also attached it in WordPerfect 
     format in case anyone wants the forms in their table form for nicer 
     printing.

{NOTE:  We removed the WordPerfect version because of mailing list
limitations. Reggie & Jeff}
     
     While I was keying this in I decided to pust some of my old DAK 
     recipes through the conversion.  Cause what was good for the R2D2 may 
     not be good for the Zojirushi.  I had made a loaf of Drew's Dill Onion 
     bread last year when I first got my new machine, and it wasn't like I 
     remembered it.  In the old days, different machine, I used to make 
     this all the time and loved it.  I made the conversion on Sunday.  The 
     liquidity ratio for the Zo is 2.89 and the Dill onion bread recipe was 
     1.89.  I modified it, dumped in the ingredients, poof!  perfect dough 
     ball.  Cinnamon raisin next.
     
     Hope You're having a great day!
     
     Gerry
     
                               Recipe Conversion

This technique is for yeast breads only

Four steps:
  1. Cut the recipe down so it will make one loaf.
  2. Determine the parameters of your bread machine.
  3. Determine the liquidity ratio of the recipe.
  4. Determine the overall bulk of the recipe.

1. Reducing recipe size.
      Most recipes tell how many loaves they make.  Some will tell the size of
the loaf.  Cut the recipe down so it will make one loaf.
      A rough judgement can be made by looking at the flour required.  A 1
pound loaf requires about 2 cups of flour.  Therefore if your recipe calls for
6 cups of flour, you can figure it will make 3 - 1 pound loaves or 2 - 1 1/2
pound loaves.

2.  Determine machine parameters.
      Since each machine varies in its capacity and motor power, you must
determine the acceptable ranges for your machine in two categories: liquidity
ratio and bulk.  To find your machine's range, look at the basic white bread
recipe that came with the machine.  Determine the number of cups of flour
called for.  Follow that column until you find the row that shows the number
of ounces of liquid (water or milk) called for in the recipe.  In that box you
will find the ratio range for your machine.  Highlight or write down the ratio
range.

      Bulk is determined by the number of cups of flour called for in the
basic white bread recipe for your machine.  If the recipe calls for 2 to 2 1/2
cups of flour, you have a 1 pound machine.  If the recipe calls for 3 to 4
cups of flour you have a 1 1/2 pound (or greater) machine.

                        Bread Machine Liquidity Ratios

Ounces Liquid              Cups of Flour        
1/8C = 1oz
                    2          2 1/2         3         3 1/2

      5           2.9-3.5     3.6-4.4     4.3-5.3     5.0-6.2     
      6           2.4-3.0     3.0-3.6     3.6-4.4     4.2-5.2     
      7           2.1-2.5     2.6-3.2     3.1-3.7     3.6-4.4     
      8           1.8-2.2     2.3-2.8     2.7-3.3     3.2-3.9     
      9           1.6-2.0     2.0-2.4     2.4-3.0     2.8-3.4     
      10          1.4-1.8     1.8-2.2     2.2-2.6     2.5-3.1     
      11          1.4-1.7     1.6-2.0     2.0-2.4     2.3-2.8

The ratio for my Zo is 2.89.  (3.25 cups flour / 1 1/8 cups water)

Ratio is computed by dividing dry ingredients by liquid.  Higher ratios
indicate stiffer dough.  Lower ratios indicate more liquid dough.

3.  Determining Liquidity Ratio.
      Using the following chart you now need to determine the liquidity ratio
of your recipe.  Fill in the ingredients and their amounts in the appropriate
columns.  Write the amounts as decimal fractions so you can use a calculator
later to add them up.  For example if the recipe calls for 2 1/2 cups of flour
- - put 2.5 in the dry cup column.  You'll have to determine whether an
ingredient is dry or wet.  Generally - use the form the ingredient is in when
you add it.  Exeptions to this are things that are goin to melt when heat is
applied such as butter, margarine, fresh cheese  or shortening.
      Some ingredients shouldn't be computed.  Don't include the following in
the calculation: yeast, raisins / nuts / seeds added at the mix cycle.
      You should count raisins / nuts / or seeds added initially as dry
ingredients.

      After you have entered all the ingredients, total each column and place
the sum in the subtotal box.  Then multiply the subtotal by the multiplier
specified and place the result in the total box.  Add the totals together for
wet and dry grand totals.  Then divide the dry grand total by the wet grand
total to compute the ratio for this recipe.

      For best results the ratio should fall within the range specified for
your machine from step 2.  If the ratio only misses by a few points it will
probably be satifactory.  If the ratio is below the range your dough might be
too wet. Try a slight reduction in liquid ingredients or an increase in dry
ingredients and recalculate.  If the ratio is above the range, it is too dry. 
Add liquid or reduce the dry ingredients.

      You may still need to experiment a little but this calculation will get
you beyond the trial and error stage.

                     Dough Liquidity Calculation Worksheet

                  DRY                                             WET
Ingredient
                  tsp   tbs   cup               tsp   tbs   cup   oz
Subtotal
Multiplier              3     48                      3     48    6
Total
Grand Total
Liquidity ratio


4.  Determining Bulk.
      You don't want to overflow the machine so make sure that the recipe
doesn't call for more than 2 1/2 cups of flour for a one pound machine, or
more than 3 1/2 cups for a 1 1/2 pound machine.  If you need to fine tune the
recipe make equal adjustments to both the wet and dry ingredients in order to
maintain the liquidity ratio.

What's the most exotic but edible stuff you've made in a breadmaker?
I'm curious to experiment with spinach or fresh onions, or chocolate, and was
wondering if anybody else had tried it.

I've made a bread which called for dried apricots that came out quite good
and also an herb bread which called for grated fresh onion, Parmesan, and
an assortment of herbs.  The herb bread was quite mild while warm with the
flavor intensifying the next day. 

Whenever I serve spaghetti, I always make a loaf of garlic and herb bread to
go with it.  I use my regular white bread recipe and add 3 tbs of crushed
garlic and the equivelent of 3 tbs of my favorite herbs(2 of basil and a pinch
of either rosemary or thyme).  I find that cinnamon bread turns out well, but
chocolate does not.  Let me know if your chocolate turns out better.  Onion
and basil bread is also a good one.  When ever I use what would normally be
a sweet bread inggredients, the bread turns out fine, but the flavor is not
like that of batter breads...toooooo dry.

  I can vouch for both the spaghetti and the bread. Both are excellent.

This was in the current issue of the bread bakers digest:


--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n002.2 ---------------

From: RobLK6@aol.com
Subject: broken paddle
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 21:09:18 -0500

My kids broke the paddle on my round Welbuilt breadmachine.  How to replace?
I know this has been posted mucho before.  OTOH, I thought it'll never
happen to me.

  [Editor's Note:  I asked Rob how they broke it...]

They gave it to the dog to chew on.  They prefer store bought white bread -
it's what their friends eat.

Rob

Reminds me of a favorite story of my mother's, about my sister.  She was over
a the home of a neighbor/friend/unoffical-aunt for the afternoon.  The woman
offered her cookies.  Turned up a bag of Oreos, grimaced or something, said
"wait a minute, I have some home-made ones here somewhere".  My sister's
reaction:  "Oh, Mrs Swan, couldn't I *please* have Oreos instead?  We *never*
get store-bought cookies at home - we *always* have to eat home-made ones."
(Poor deprived children we were ...)

I got my kids to start eating homemade bread by not purchasing any from the
store.  They quit eating bread for a while...then, I began to give them the
stuff warm and fresh...they discovered the joys of fresh bread and have now
begun eating sandwiches again.  My daughter, 13, who swears that wheat bread
is the vilest stuff on earth, ate almost a whole loaf of the fresh stuff and
remarked that it was the lightest, fluffiest bread she had ever tasted...then
I told her it was wheat bread!  She asked me to please make some more.  While
children are still malleable...life is still grand!

FWIW, last week "DAK Gourmet Products" sent me some literature inviting
me to trade in my old DAK breadmaker on a Turbo Baker V.  Parts list for
all their models also included.

Hey cool, so they do exist!  Is there a phone number in the catelog?  I think
I'd like to be on the mailing list.

The parts-pricelist says at the bottom "To request a catalog of other
available items, please call 800-656-BAKE (2253)".  All the address info on
everything says "DAK Gourmet Products", so I'd suspect that either the
bread-machine division is all that's left or it's been spun off, but I don't
know.

Wasn't the DAK bread machine already made by some other company?

I think DAK and Wellbuilt are one and the same.  Or is it Wellbilt?

Or Welbilt?

So, ever since I got it, my Zo made disappointing loaves of bread.  I got the
Zo not too long after I moved to an apartment that is practically right on
top of Whole Foods, so I'd been getting all my bread ingredients there.  Just
in case the difference between the Zo loaves and the bread from my old Welbilt
was the ingredients and not the machine, I made a loaf with all ingredients
purchased at the People's Food Co-op.  WOW!  What a difference!  The PFC bread
came out infinitely better.  Now I know that my Zojirushi can make really good
bread.  Time to start doing more shopping at PFC again, even if WF is walking
distance from here.

Be nice to pin down what the exact difference is.  "Disappointing" how?

Very dense.  I think the problem was a combination of non-energetic yeast and
excruciatingly boring flour.

What is the difference between boring flour and exciting flour?  I couldn't
tell ya, but the PFC's flour is much better.

  Maybe if you proofed your yeast before you added it to the machine. 
It sounds like your yeast failed.

  I am tossing the idea of buying a bread machine around.

Are you using bread flour, whole wheat flour, gluten, Red Star yeast?
I'm curious exactly what you used that failed.

Me too.  My first guess would be that the yeast was DOA, but the flour's
gluten content would come next.

The yeast from WF was supposedly Red Star.  I think the PFC yeast is also Red
Star.  PFC refrigerates their yeast.  WF does not.

The flour from WF was supposedly bread flour, but some of it came from a bin
with a label on it that says, "We found out that bread flour and regular flour
are exactly the same thing, so we have conveniently stored both types of flour
in the same bin for you."  Some of the WF flour was King Arthur flour, which
mentioned several different purposes on the package, including breadmaking.
It said their flour is so good that you should use X tablespoons fewer per
cup of flour, than the recipe calls for.  The people on the breadmaker digest
mailing list raved about King Arthur flour, so I'd expected it to be something
really special.

The PFC flour that works so much better is from bins that don't say which
brand they are, though probably I could read brand names from the bags near
the bins.  A lot probably comes from the Daily Grind, right here in Ann Arbor.
The flour is labeled with names like "unbleached white bread flour" and "whole
wheat bread flour".

Weird, I've tried King Arthur's bread flour and had good results.
Not better than my usual though.  I get bread making supplies
at Fireside, including bulk Red Star yeast and vital gluten.
I know it's weird but I'd rather someone else bag it up than
scoop my food from a vat where everyone else has had a whack
at it.

Yeah, one time at the co-op I watched a small child with hands that were
covered in dirt and blue paint, running her hands through a bin of some kind
of food (lettuce?).  All I could think was "eeew -- why doesn't her mother
stop her?!"

Well, I am off to make my very first loaf of rye bread with caraway seed. 
I have made a loaf without the caraway, and I was rather disappointed...seemed
like something was missing...though I have often purchased it without the
caraway and really liked it...I wonder if it is the caraway?  I'll soon see!

One of my cookbooks claims that if you put caraway seeds into a loaf of bread,
people will think it is rye bread, even if there is not a drop of rye flour
anyplace in the bread.

I know that for *years* I thought I hated rye bread, period.  My mother
suggested that it was the caraway, but as some rye breads had sesame seeds
& others didn't I thought *those* were the things in question.  But it is
indeed the caraway seeds I hate.  So many rye breads that aren't prominently
labeled as "caraway rye" or anything contain caraway that unless you're really
reading the ingredients lists that very likely is your missing ingredient,
I'd say.  The difference in flavor between rye & wheat in bread is fairly
subtle.

Well, I guess I will have to get another recipe.  I put twice the recommended
amount of caraway in the bread and it is still missing something.  I also
think the bread is way too sweet.  Any one who has a good recipe, please feel
free to post it so that I can get a decent loaf of rye bread!  I really love
the stuff, but I am just not happpy with this bread.  It comes out nice and
light and fluffy, but it is just not that good...missing something.  Any
ideas?

 This isn't rye bread, but it sounds yummy.

                    Italian Parmesan Bread
2 pkgs Jiffy Pizza Crust mix
1 cup bread flour
1 tsp Italian spice
2/3 c Parmesan cheese
1 1/3 c hot tap water

  Blend all ingredients together. Place mixing blade in bread pan securely

 Pour batter into bread pan, snap in place and close lid

 Plug machine in. Press bread rapid menu and light color. Press start.

 Remove pan from machine when finished Cool and slice.

Well, I don't know if this will be rye enough for you but
I like it a whole lot.  It's a recipe entered in the bread 
machine conference, on Prodigy, about three years ago.  And
it's still getting regular requests for reposting.

                 Catskill Mountain Rye

4 Tbsp. gluten
3 Tbsp. non-fat dry milk
1 3/4 cup bread flour
1 cup rye flour
1 Tbsp. caraway seeds
1 tsp. salt
1 cup water
1 Tbsp. vegetable oil
2 Tbsp. honey
1 tsp. yeast

Add all, as instructed for your bread machine.  Bake on the light cycle.

Thanks chelsea, I will try it and see if it is it.  I will let you know. 
Again, thanks.

Hey chelsea!  I just now took out the rye bread from the recipe that you
posted.  It is fantastic!  It is not too sweet and I can actually taste the
caraway...very faintly, but it is there!  I love it.  Now, do you happen to
have a recipe for dark rye bread?  This one is a keeper though!  Thousands
of grateful, yummy thanks!

Glad you like it!  Sorry, I've never bad a dark rye bread.
I'll keep an eye out for a recipe.

Thanks, I would appreciate that.  I made my second loaf last night.  I doubled
the caraway and was pleasantly surprised at the results.  When I get done
here, I will be making poached eggs on rye toast...yummy!

Bulk yeast definitely keeps better when refrigerated or frozen (though
we had problems for a while when our refrigerator tended to be too cold).
I would be suspicious of something that said bread flour was the same
as regular flour -- what's irregular flour?  That sounds as if they're
saying that all flour is bread flour.  But the flour in question may
be fine.

  So the machine will be a reality in a few short days. But the question that
has been nagging me. How do you keep the salt and yeast apart?

You don't worry about it.  You just keep the flour between the liquids and
the other solids, and it works.

 OK, another one- Can you proof the yeast with a machine? Mom always tells
me that I have to make sure the yeast is active, and so what she does is
combine it with a little sugar and water and wait 10 minutes. I'm not sure
if you can do that with a machine, but who knows? 
 Another thang-- Is use of quick rise yeast recommended? I don't want to use
the quick stuff, and have the machine think I'm using the regular stuff, and
get some really evil overrises ;)

I suppose you could proof the yeast first but I'm not sure why you'd want
to do so.  When I was first making bread by hand I too was told about
proofing and included it in the process.  But after awhile I stopped and
found it made no difference whatsoever. The yeast works just as well
undissolved and the only time I ever got a batch that refused to bubble was
when I mixed it with water over 115 degrees and killed it myself.  Now, I
buy fresh bulk yeast, keep it in an airtight container in the refrigerator,
and pitch it for new every six months.  I use Red Star yeast and prefer it
to Fleishman's.  If you do proof for the bread machine make sure to
measure whatever liquid and sugar you use and subtract it from the overall
liquid and sugar in the recipe.  Bread machines are fairly unforgiving
regarding the balance of ingredients. 

Regarding quick yeasts - I remember reading on the Prodigy Bread Machine
board that it didn't work well as a substitute for regular yeast in
recipes.  But I don't remember what went wrong if you did. 

just follow the basic directions, omni, then experiment and have fun!  You
will soon learn what works and what does not.  And most will be edible anyway!

 I bought a Toastmaster, similar to freida's and I'm 100% happy with it.
The bread that I made, white and sourdough was great, but I really don't 
care for the sour taste of the bread. I'm looking forward to a lot of good
bread from this machine.

Re quick-rise yeast: I think I remember reading that you want to use that on
a quick-bread cycle, if your machine has one.  Otherwise, I'd use regular
yeast in the machine.

Re 234: They might have said "all-purpose" flour and not "regular" flour.
Either way, I share your suspicions.

  Tonight we had spaghetti, and we made garlic and herb bread ala frieda's
recipe, and man, was that ever fantastic! I cannot imagine ever again buying
that crud that passes for bread in the supermarkets.
  So far, all the bread that we have made has turned out well. I really have
not experimented much, except for the herb/garlic, but even that was the basic
white recipe that came with the book. I am not going to use quickrise in my
machine, because 2 hours start to finish isn't all that long to wait, if you
really think about it. 
   According to the manual, they recommend using bread flour, and not
all-purpose because of the flour structure, and all that. I guess that
all-purpose could be used if you add additional gluten, right?

I haven't had terribly good luck using non-bread flour and adding gluten, but
theoretically that should work.

Your machine takes 2 hours from start to finish?  My current one and my old
one both took 4 hours.  Maybe you *should* be using quick-rise yeast....

 Welllll more like 2:30 on 1, and 2:50 on 2 which is medium crust, I prefer
that.

Well, I always use regular flour since the bread flour here is so expensive.
I use about 3 1/2 cups of flour to 4 heaping icetea size spoons full of
gluten..  I think I will need to cut the gluten since the bread always rises
too much, probably back to 3 and see.  My bread usually turns out really light
and I almost always use the # 3 setting which takes 2:40 from beginning to
end.  But omni has the newest model which is backwards from my old one.  I
use the lightest setting.  Tonight, I am making cinnamon buns.  Can't wait,
but guess I will have to since the machine is making white bread right now.
Elanor wanted a sandwich and there was no bread, so I made her some of the
white, which is her second favorite...wheat being her favorite from the
machine.  She can't stand wheat from the store, but still likes the white
stuff from the store.  Oh, well, at least she is trying stuff now!

 There were 2 models to choose from, and I got model 1195, the one with the
butter churn, and the one that looks almost similar to yours, freida. I have
not used gluten yet. Tried to make butter and that flopped because we thought
we could use coffee cream
  I have always used setting number 2 for my breads and they come out really
nice. Maybe you need to use #3 because of your altitude. The next loaf that
I'm going to make wil be milk bread.

Freida, could you post your cinnamon bun recipe?  I'm on a quest for a good
breadmaker cinnamon roll.  Thanks!

okay valerie...sorry.  I knew there was something I was supposed to do for
grexstock that didn't get done!  Sorry I forgot to make the cinnamon buns!
And they are so good too!

Dough...
Take 3/4 cup milk and add to it 1/4 cup of very hot water (to make warm, but
not yeast killing watery milk) and dump in breadmaker.  (Water always goes
first in mine...do your the way your breadmaker says)  Add 1/4 cup of butter
or margarine.  Add 3 cups of flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1 tsp salt 1 pkg or 1 TBS
yeast, and 1 egg beaten.  Set the machine to knead the dough.  When it is
finished, place the dough in a large plastic bag which you have sprayed with
oil and close tightly.  I only leave about 1/2 the room I expect the dough
to rise to...you know it is supposed to double in bulk...I only allow it to
get 1/2 that large.  Place in a warm, draft free place to rise (takes about
1 and 1/2 hours).  Now take the dough out and divide into 3s.  Roll each
section out to a thickness of about 1/2 inch.  Spread melted butter on dough
and then sprinkle dark brown sugar, cinnamon and grated lemon or orange peel
onto dough.  Be sure to leave on edge ingredient free to seal.  Roll the dough
up and slice to desired thickness ( about 1 inch) and place on a oil sprayed
baking sheet.  Cover with clean cloth and place in draft free place to rise
until doubled in bulk.  They get really huge because you didn't let the dough
expand all the way during the first rise.  You can also add your favorite nut
to the cinnamon/sugar mixture.  When risen, bake at 350 degrees for about 10
minutes or until a light golden color.  Remove from pan immediately.  Oven
temperatures vary, so be sure to watch them and see when they are done.
ENJOY!!!!

 Yes, those are delicious. You could've made the dough in the bread machine,
freida.

er, the instructions say she did, omni.

 Milk bread was a flop. Came out too dry because I baked it on med instead
of light. Guess I'll have to work on that one a bit. 

 Made potato bread from a pre made mix, and it came out really well. Mom seems
to favor the mixes, and I seem to like recipes.

 I'm going to call Toastmaster about the quickrise yeast on Monday, and I'll
be posting the findings.

Did you use liquid milk in your recipe, or did you use powdered?  I always
use powdered and my milk bread comes out quite yummy.  email me for more
info...

   I used liquid milk as I happen to lack the powdered stuff. I think my error
was baking it on 2, instead of 1 like the book said to do.

Should be OK, unless you forgot to reduce the amount of water.

Freida, your cinnamon bun recipe looks yummy.  I'm looking forward to testing
it out!

After posting the cinnamon bun recipe, I decided I was hungry for some so I
made the dough, and while it was doing the first rise, went to collect the
ingredients for the next phase...well, don't you know!  I was out of cinnamon.
Now, and you can ask valerie for verification, I don't live near a store and
my fridge has been on the fritz lately, so....I actually took the plastic bag
of dough and put it in a cooler and put those blue freezer things on it. 
Yesterday, I finally got to the store (I changed the blue freezer things about
every 12 hours) and bought some cinnamon.  I made the buns today, thinking
they would probably not do the second rise well...lo and behold!  They were
the best rising buns I have ever had!.  It sure was yummy!

Valerie, if you are making the buns, and you want them to turn out like
cinnabons, then cut the buns into 2 inch pieces, instead of 1 inch slices.
Put them in a pan with side and about a 1/2 inch apart.  The buns rise
out...not up!

If you're out of cinnamon, trying it with cardamom instead might be an option.
If you're a fan of cardamom, that is.  (I am!)

Oh, and I have cardamon...never thought of that...we all love cinnamon.  I
am on the homestead mailing list and one of the fellows, well, actually, the
administrator of the list and his wife live in White Sulpher Springs, WV. 
We will be meeting on Tuesday and he is bringing me a ton of zucchini!  Mine
died witht he first hard frost and I don't have anymore seeds.  I am so
tickled!  This means we can make our cinnamon bread (zucchini bread with extra
cinnamon, but the kids don't know that...shhhh!)Yippee!  Plus, I just got my
new refrigerator and it is so cool having one which works and an icemaker!
Don't ever let anyone tell you that those old iceboxes are so cool!  They are
only cool if you remember to put ice in them about every 10 to 12 hours and
that is definitely no fun!

Congrats about the new fridge!  The old one sure looked like a lot of work.

Thanks, Valerie!  I never ever thought I would be and continue to be excited
by a refrigerator, but...this one is so cool!  And it makes ice...which I am
using a lot of to calm the poison ivy itch!

Well, if a refrigerator *isn't* cool you've got problems, Freida.

Where *is* that Grexbat when I need it?

Last I heard aruba had it.
8-{)]

Our boys these days prefer store-bought bread, when they get it which
is not often.  Any such bread for them of course has to be corn-free,
which correlates with fairly good quality, and I suspect they like the
texture better.

 We made the most wonderful raisin cinnamon bread tonight. This was our first
loaf that we made, but it will not be the last. I love this thing.

Hmm, rasin cinnamon bread sounds delicious, omni!!  Who is WE and how
did y'all enjoy it?? And was it made in a bread machine, I assume?

 But of course it was made in a bread machine. 

 We refers to my mom, who put the ingrediants together, but it was my idea
that we make the raisin bread. I can post the recipe.

I was browsing through cookbooks yesterday and found a bread making tip that
said to use well water instead of tapwater, because tap water contains
chlorine, which kills fungi, and yeast is a fungus.  I've always used tapwater
in my bread; it's always seemed to work OK.

Recently, Ann Arbor switched from chlorinated water to ozonated water.  I was
wondering if anybody noticed a difference in how well their bread rises.

Back when I brewed beer I just used tap water.  No problem with the yeast at
all.

Actually, my bread machine rising behavior has been a bit inconsistent lately.

I've notice no change in how many loaves are coming out.  With
high humidity I need to use a little less water than in drier
weather but that's nothing new.

For the first time the other day I tried a bag of whole grain
bread from Williams-Sonoma.  It's kinda pricey at $4.50 but it
tasted wonderful.  Every once in a while I get their cranberry-
orange bread (same price).  

Another neat thing to do using the bread machine - make a French-style
dough then remove it and cook it in a cloche.  A cloche is unglazed
pottery shallow dish with a high domed pottery top.  The cloche is
submerged in water for an hour before the shaped dough is placed inside
and the whole thing goes into the oven.  I've seen and tasted bread made
with this technique and it is truly amazing.  My sister has one.  Next
time she goes on vacation I'm going to steal it. 

s/my/many

ref #268, 269: Damn! You almost had me thinking that I could toss Kim Alexis
into a swimming pool and rid society of Monistat-3 commercials forever. 8^)

I have one of those unglazed clay Romertopf casseroles that were the rage in
the early 80s.  Do you suppose that would work as a cloche for the bread?

I would bet so.  Let me know how it goes?

most of the cloches that i saw were all glazed....

also, i thought that the romertopfs had to be soaked before baking....wouldn't
that do wierd things to the bread?  (show's how much i know...:)

The whole idea is that the water-soaked clay will bathe the
baking bread in high humidity.  That allows a very crisp
yet nicely browned crust.  The only cloches I've seen are
totally unglazed.

Two things are keeping me from buying either the one in
King Arthur's catalogue or the one at Williams-Sonoma.
They go for $50.  Also, they are fairly large and breakable
and would eat a good chunk of storage space.

They were popular wedding gift items at one point, so they come cheaply at
garage sales.  Of course, part of the reason they get sold is that they are
heavy, bulky, and all the recipes seem to require 400 to 500 degree ovens
blasting away for an hour or two.  
Haven't had time to try this, but will soon.  

 I've been meaning to enter this for a while now, and now that I have a
chance, here it is.

  Recently we bought a mix from Krusteaz (Country White) and Mom put it in
the machine as usual but what came out was very unusual. For some reason,
when the loaf came out, it collapsed in on itself, leaving a hollow shell
that was normally colored. The reason for this was unknown since all the other
stuff that we were putting in the machine was coming out OK.
  At this time, I was also noticing that the machine was loud, like banging
against the machine sides, but it wasn't. The pan had come loose at the top,
and as a result the mix was not kneading properly. 
  I solved the problem by bending the spring supports back out to where they
were when the machine was new. That was it. Now the machine is quiet, and
we've not had anymore flops. 

  The other night we made some really killer egg bread that made wonderful
french toast. Recipe on request.

I'm in the process of extracting recipes from the kitchen conference for the
recipe archives, so I read this item from start to finish.  It was interesting
to see 4 or 5 years of breadmaker discussions compressed together.  Lots of
people say the same thing several times over.  There are recipes that are
posted 2 and 3 times in this item, and an oodle of announcements from me that
this time I've "solved" the problem with getting hockeypuck loaves from my
Zoji.  (Switching from Whole Foods ingredients to Co-op ingredients and
adding more yeast than the recipe calls for really does seem to have finally
fixed the problem.)  Mary periodically announces how long she's had her
breadmaker and what stage of trying new recipes she's at.  Occasional topics
are introduced, are discussed for a while, and go away again.  There are
postings from Grexers who I haven't seen in years.  It's interesting reading.

The update of the recipe archives isn't done yet, so don't go rushing to
look at it yet.  But there are some new recipes there, especially in the
bread department.

Well, I've had my bread machine so long now I can no longer 
recall when I bought it.  And I'm pretty much down to making
only 4 favorite recipes.  Just thought you'd like to know. ;-)

Based on response #0 to this item, I'd guess you got the bread machine
shortly before September 7, 1992.

it finally happened...  We went to Target to get a phone Caller ID box
that was on sale and a breadmachine followed us out to the car.  The
first couple of loaves that came out of it were pretty good.  The next,
and most of the subsiquent loaves have had problems.  They seem to rise
just fine and then fall right at the start of the baking cycle, leaving
a large hollow which makes the loaf unusable for sandwiches (which with
having to make 7-8 sandwiches a day for school and work lunches is why
we bought the machine in the first place is quite disappointing).  I have
tried adding glutin, which only helps slightly.  STeve was all for taking
the machine back, but the last few loaves have been okay and I've convinced
him that it will just take a bit more experimentation.  I am looking forward
to trying many of the recipes posted here.

  What brand didja get, Glenda?

Congrats Glenda!  Cool beans!

Sometimes loaves fall if they're too wet.  Also, if you get a loaf that fell,
you can usually slice it crosswise or sideways or in some creative way to get
at least *some* real slices out.

For example, if you get a loaf that looks like this:

  n          n
  | \______/ |
  |          |
  |__________|

you can start slicing from the bottom and work your way up, until you're left
with just the little points from the top.

With the amount of bread you folks use I'd really suggest you hang in
there.  There is good bit of failure associated with the first few months
of use.  Even now, whenever I try a new recipe there is some anxiety
associated with that first look at the finished product. 

The loaves that collapsed - where they the same recipe prepared the same
exact way as loaves that came out nicely?  Did you open the top once the
kneeding process had ended?  I find peeking anytime after the first couple
of minutes causes problems.  Are you using Red Star yeast?  (Folks seem to
think there is a big difference between Red Star and Fleishman's.)  Are
these recipes with heavy solids (like oatmeal and 100% whole wheat flour)
and lots of sugar or honey?  These are always difficult loaves.

Anyhow, hang in there.  After some experimentation you'll find a number of
fool-proof recipes that work well for your machine and your needs.  Then
the failed experimental loaves won't be such a concern. 

We got a Chefmate that does 1, 1.5 and 2 lb loaves.  The first good loaves
where the basic white bread recipe in the book that came with the machine
and a whole wheat (I substituted 2 cups of whole wheat flour for 2 cups of
white flour).  After those three loaves the next bunch came out fallen, 
using the same white bread recipe.  I also tried a the basic white bread
recipe that I have been making by hand for years.  The last few loaves have
come out ok.  The most consistant so far is the machine's book egg bread
recipe.  Just put on a started their rye bread recipe, will see how it
goes.

I use the bulk yeast from the Co-op, don't know what brand it is.  Flour
has come from the Co-op and from Fireside.

The bulk yeast from the co-op is Red Star.  It's the most reliable yeast I've
found yet.

I open the top of my breadmaker all the time, even when it's baking.  That
doesn't seem to cause any problems with my Zoji.  I *think* my previous
breadmaker would have shut itself off if I'd opened it during baking.

I find it's helpful to watch the breadmaker as it starts running, to see if
the ingredients look too dry or wet, and make adjustments as needed.
Lately this seems to mean that in my eagerness to adjust the loaf to
perfection, I add too much water and end up with slightly soggy bread.
Sigh.

A lot of folks on the bread list have recommended measuring ingredients by
weight, not by volume, for consistent results; the flour in particular can
vary so much in how it packs.  (This is not so much a problem in hand-made
bread, as you adjust liquid & flour by feel, once you get some experience.)

[You may already know this: Glenda is a very experienced maker of hand-made
bread.]

Damn thing has decided that it has to replace the TV as evening entertainment.
It not only walks across the counter, it dances and does piruettes as well.
There is no way that it can be left alone during the kneading phase unless
it is on the floor instead of the counter.

Oh, my.  I've heard of bread machines that behave like that.  The original
DAK machines where often referred to (on USENET and Prodigy's cooking
conference) as having committed DAK-cide by walking off the counter. 

No hints here on how to keep it from dancing.

I buy most of my bread supplies at Fireside.  They too carry
bulk Red Star yeast.

I have read somewhere that such loaves are generally caused by too high a
proportion of liquid (and the right proportion varies depending on the 
brand of machine -- Zoji and DAK, the only ones we've ever had, do best 
with a "dryer" dough than some others).

Lately I've been using our machine mostly to make dough, & baking it in the
regular oven.  This started as a device to get more loaves per day and per
dishwashing (on a really good day I have baked 4 loaves this way) and has
several useful side-effects.  First that if I don't get the dough hook in,
or in right, the loaf is merely delayed instead of ruined.  Secondly that I
can make a bigger loaf if I want to, since it doesn't complete full rising 
in the machine.  Thirdly that the texture is often less crumbly  with fewer
obvious air-bubbles (maybe because it rises more slowly?) Fourthly that the 
crust has a nicer flavor when it's baked in a (however-slightly) greased
pan.  Fifthly that the loaf fits a little better into available bags.  
Sixthly that rising is relatively under supervision, so I rarely get 
unpleasant surprises like those U-shaped fallen loaves.  But as the hot
weather comes on, I may reconsider -- our oven isn't super-well-insulated.

Re walking bread machines: You might try aiming for a "squishier" dough or
smaller loaves.  I'd guess that it walks because it is straining to do the
kneading.  Of course, if you're getting U shaped loaves, you probably *don't*
want to make the dough wetter.  Sigh.

Re the Fireside: Do they refrigerate their bulk yeast?  My guess is that the
yeast at the Co-op seems to work better than the bulk yeast at Whole Foods
because the co-op refrigerates their yeast, while whole foods doesn't.

Fireside doesn't refrigerate their bulk yeast (sold in little bags)
or any of their whole-grain flours.  I think they go through it
pretty quickly.

It's good to know that PFC carries Red Star.  There are times
when shopping the Kerrytown area would be more convenient.

I have asked my kids for a bread making machine for this mother's day.  You
guys have finally convinced me to get into the grove.  When I get it (and I
think they are sending me a DAK) I will reread this whole item and pay
attention to what I read.  I am looking forward to putting all the ingredients
in the thing Sat night and setting a timer and waking on Sunday AM to the
smell and taste of fresh bread.  I wonder how long my enthusiasm will last?

We used to have trouble with a DAK walking.  Design of machine makes a lot
of difference in this, I think.  But I'd guess that what Valerie said about
quantity & consistency of the dough matters, too.

Ya, the design of the machine matters more than the consistency (and amount)
of the dough.  But all are factors.

Well the bread making machine arrived today and it is humongous.  Its a
Wellbuilt, not a DAK.  Saturday, I make my first load.  Dont want to be too
ambitious but also dont want to make a plain old white bread (dont even eat
those store bought.)  I just reread what I wrote and laughed, I meant loaf,
not load.  But left that in because it reads humourously.

Hey, don't sell white bread short.  It may suck store-bought, but fresh...

Yea, but. . . .I like to get some "bounce" for my caloric intake.  At least
a little fiber, a little taste, a little chewiness.  Sell me on making a white
bread and Ill try it.

OK, it only costs <$1?

When I got my bread compiler, I really wanted to do a lot of wheat breads,
etc.  I finally discovered that fresh-made white bread was really what I liked
best.  That is my sandwich bread.  I do others for regular (non-sandwich)
snacks.

Congrats on the new arrival, Audrey!  Keep us posted!

I fell like a new mother.  My baby bread maker is now churning out an egg
eggbread.  Due to pop out in 40 more minutes.  I didn't want to try the timer
the first time I used it so I'm making tomorrow am's bread tonight.  The next
one we will try will be a wheat and mixed nut bread (walnuts and sesame
seeds).  Scott, the $1 cost of the white bread is a mild selling point. 
Bigger yet would be if it is delicious and only cost $1 to make.  Then I would
figure out how to add fiber. (When you get old you NEED fiber).

Well the bread came out looking great but was much to dry and airy for my
taste.  I think it was because it was a store bought mix and not one with
ingredients specifically for this machine.  Tomorrow, Ill get the ingredients
for the multigrain nut bread and see what happens with that.  We wil have a
"glut" of bread in this house soon.  

I am concerned about getting the ingredients and then getting them filed with
those little bugs people were talking about earlier on in this item.  I try
to keep everything in my cupboards sealed but somehow they weasel their way
into any bread or wheat like products.  Just threw out almost a whole box of
cornmeal. Ugh.

   I don't care for the ready to dump mixes mostly because of the price. I
still prefer to buy the flour and yeast and go that way. I believe that the
cost comes out way less than when you buy a mix. Also, you can play a bit with
the water content to make it wetter or dryer if you want. 
  Does yours have a dough cycle, Audrey?

A cup of wheat bran can be substituted for a cup of white flour in 'most
any white bread recipe with my machine (a Royal).  Sounds like you've got
a bad bug problem.  I'd try mothballs (the smell shouldn't get into really
sealed food) or pre-mixing & freezing.  (Buy (a) bag(s) of bread flour, 
measure the amount(s) needed to make a loaf into a ziplock freezer bag,
seal, throw into the freezer, and repeat until out of flour.  Take a bag out
to warm up about a day ahead when you want to make bread.  If that doesn't
stop the bugs, I'd suggest fumigation.)

My favorite white bread recipes use skim milk for the liquid, and include
an egg and 1 T or so of olive oil.  They seem plenty moist to me.  Sealing
the bread in a ziplock bag for a few hours after cooling helps if the crust
is too dry.  "Too airy" sounds like it's rising more than you'd like.  I'd
try cutting back on the sugar (or honey, or whatever).

"Fiddle with the recipe" is sort of a universal cure for bread that isn't 
what you want it to be.  At least with my Royal, the recipes in the book 
aren't all that great, and there aren't any yeast police out there to hassle
you if you don't do exactly what the book says.

Put your ingredients in either plastic or glass containers.  That should
protect them.  Live that way about a year, and your resident bug population
will run out of food. 

I keep the whole grain flours (wheat and rye) in the refrigerator
in Rubbermaid containers.  Ditto for the buttermilk powder, yeast
and gluten.  Also, all seeds and nuts are stored in little freezer
weight zip lock bags.  When I first got my bread machine it bothered
me to sacrifice almost an entire shelf to bread baking products
but I got over it. ;-)

My favorite breads from the machine:
   
    Honey Whole Wheat: chewy, moist, nice shape and just wheaty
          enough for those who aren't into healthy bread (my son).

    French Bread:  Foolproof with an authentic French bread taste
          and texture but it goes stale quite quickly.  Usually not
          a problem eating it up fast enough.  It is a great "goes
          with pasta" bread.

    Poulsbo:  Everything but the kitchen sink goes in and it is 
          dense, nutty, and simply wonderful with just a bit of
          honey.  (Remember the old Saturday Night Live skit with
          "colon blow" cereal.  This is "colon blow" bread. 

When I first got my machine (1993) I experimented quite a bit. 
But now I down to making a half-dozen favorites.  I would buy another
machine in a heartbeat if this one died.

Also, sometime when you feel a bit extravagant try one of the
Williams Sonoma bread machine mixes.  I've tried them all and
they are very good.  A bit pricey, but good.

Re flour storage: I buy my flour/yeast/milk powder/etc in bulk at either the
co-op or Whole Foods.  I store it in the bags I bought it in, either in the
fridge or the freezer.  Sometimes they leak flour around the fridge, which
makes the jars of mayo and mustard look dusty.  But mostly it's low
maintenance, and keeps the flours away from any buggy critters that might take
a fancy to 'em.

Thanks for all the encouragement.  Second loaf came out today.  Again too dry.
I followed the recipe in the book accompanying the machine (Wellbuilt) but
I was not precise.  It was a chunky nut and seed bread.  Little taste.  Too
dry.  Top caved a bit.  And over cooked.  Yes, omni, the machine has a dough
cycle but I haven't figured out what to do with it yet.

Mary, I will treat myself to a Williams Sonoma mix the next time I get down
to Briarwood. I will also try your honey whole wheat bread next because we
like chewy bread. My coockbook says the measurements must be exact.  I am not
a precise cook.  I like to throw in a little of this and a little of that.
But I think until I have this thing down, I'd better be more precise.

  The dough cycle is the greatest little thing. All you need do is put your
dry and wet ingredients in the pan, push the button, then go watch General
Hospital until the little monster beeps. Then you drop what comes out into
a pan and bake the *&^ out of it. Simple as anything.
 ;)

For sweeter breads that I want to be moist, I take them out 5-10 minutes
early.

If you like moist, chewy, flavorful bread I'd try Sonoma's
Cranberry Orange mix first.  It is simply wonderful.

Audrey, it's sometimes helpful to watch the consistency of the mixture when
the machine starts mixing.  If it looks much dryer or much goopier than bread
dough ought to look, add water or flour to adjust it.

Do give it a few minutes to get mixed, first, though.  Lately I've been
jumping the gun with my Zoji and adding water that it probably didn't actually
need.  This leads to weirdly concave damp-ish loaves.

I think we may have the secret to finally eliminating the little bugs that
get into flour wheat and nut packages.  We are probably bringin them in each
time we open and keep a huge bag of birdseed in the dining room.  Today we
are buying an airtight sealed can for the birdseed and all our edible products
are wrapped in plastic or placed in airtight containers.

Today we are tripping to Fireside to buy ingredients and tonight we will use
the timer for thje first time on the bread machine.  I want to wake tomorrow
am (mother's day) to the aroma of baking bread.  I am also running to
Briarwood to buy Mary's recommended cranberry orange bread mix.

Scott, I am not sure about removing the bread befoe the timer goes off.  Can
you open the machine up and take the bread out while it is still on?

  I have heard that you cannot avoid bugs, because there are eggs in the 
flour/seed and leaving on the shelf too long allows them to hatch. This is
the same reason you get fruitflies when you leave fruit like bananas on the
counter too long. The larvae are in the skins.
Some food is very dirty.

Well, we normally buy rice, flour, etc. in bulk (10-50 lb bags), put it into
airtight containers, & have no problem with bugs.  But once long ago we got
bugs, and then a couple of years ago we got some buggy granola; once they get
established in your house, it is fairly hard to get them completely gone. 
(Mostly, takes storing everything in really tight containers, & then waiting
it out, with a good deal of cleaning in the meantime.  They can survive in
the strangest things ...)

315:  Sure, just unplug the machine, then remove as usual.  

Happy News.  We have just finished one of the most delicious breakfasts we
have ever had.  And certainly a wonderful way to start Mother's Day (even
without my kids).  Mary's recommended Cranberry Orange bread mix from Williams
Sonoma fresh from the oven at 8 am.  Jerry and I woke to the smell of the
freshly baked bread at 7:55 and couldn't wait to get downstairs and try it.
It was Perfect with low fat yogurt, freshly brewed Merchant of Vino Coffee
and fresh orangte juice.  Yum.  Thank you Mary and others for your help.

Happy Mother's Day, Audrey.  I'm pleased you liked the bread.

My kids gave me a bread machine for Christmas.  After careful 
research (in Co. if Walmart doesn't have it you don't need it) got
a West Bend.  The instruction book has been informative with good
recipes, hints, etc.  Problem:  I have some Kansas wheat berries
I got when harvesting there a couple of years ago.  Where can I
find a reasonably priced flour mill?  For the moment I am using
a coffee grinder 1/3 cup at a time.  The flavor is great, but would
like something just a little bigger.  

You can grind flour in a coffee grinder?  Cool!  I'd been curious to try
baking with fresh-ground grain, but wasn't ready to buy an entire mill setup
just to try it out.

You might send e-mail to mta to ask about flour mills.  I dunno what she
uses, but I do know she grinds her own.   Also, Irwin Franzel on the bread
maker digest mailing list is forever offering to sell people some kind of
bread mill that he thinks is great.  He's from Delta Rehabilitation, which
is a group that sells bread makers and associated equipment at reduced
prices.  The profits from the sales go to help rehabilitate, um, I'm not
exactly sure who, but I think he's mentioned that bread makres are handy for
people with mobiity impairment.

King Arthur also sells mills.  

Who and where is King Arthur?  By the way, if anybody wants to
try out some of my own personally grown in Kansas wheat, let me
know.  Current batch is a couple of years old (just brought it
back from Colorado).  But this year I will start having hard red
winter wheat from my farm in Kansas.  We do use commercial
fertilizers, but getting it fresh directly means there have not
been poisons, etc., used to kill the bugs that come quickly in
commercial storage.  Given time I can even give you a picture of
where it is grown (the exact farm).  

King Arthur is a bread-making supply outfit that has quite 
a nice reputation for carrying a wide selection of quality
baking supplies.  I don't know their toll-free telephone
number but 1-800-555-1212 should be able to find it for you.

Zingerman's Bakehouse uses King Arthur flour.

If you call asking for a catalogue make sure you ask for the
general (merchandise) catalogue as they also have one which
is mostly for ordering flours, gluten, seeds, etc.

Misti (mta) uses a Vitamix machine to grind flour.  According to the book
you can also bake the bread in it as well as make juices.

A number of local stores sell King Arthur flour, too.  I've seen it at Whole
Foods.

    I really want one of these bread makers. You know, the kind that you
throw a big wad of dough (not money mind you) in it,  let it rev up, and
out pops a bouncing baby loaf of bread from its stainless steel and
plastic womb. Simple enough, eh? Well, I found one cheapo at a bidding
site (www.ubid.com) and I want it! Yeah, baby! (I finally conceded to
watching Austin Powers with my kids; very funny movie). However, I do
remember  there being a problem with them catching fire and stuff, talk
about a yeast infection! (Very sorry.) But that was years ago.  Opinions
please?

Lo 

We use (well, Grace uses) our bread machine several times a week, sometimes
several times a day.  This is (I think) our third one; they got used pretty
heavily.  I've never heard of one catching fire.

Depends on what you want.  Quality varies, but most make a good loaf pretty
much easily & painlessly.  If you're good at making bread by hand & willing
to take the time & trouble, you can probably make better bread by hand.  And
some people enjoy making bread so much that they feel that a bread machine
is no advantage.  But with practice & experimentation, you can probably make
bread that's almost as good as the best handmade bread, at times convenient
to you & without being around to supervise the process.  A *great* deal, IMO.
(We have food allergies to contend with, so acceptable storebought bread
is somewhat expensive & not always readily available, so for quite a while
Grace made most of our bread by hand.  A *really* great deal, for us.)

  Still have the Toastmaster, and I still love it like the first day.

   Lois, Toastmaster has great support, and will bend over sideways for
you to make you happy. I highly recommend it. Mine is Model 1195.

I've had a Panasonic for almost 3 years now, with no problems to report.  I
like it a lot, although it's a bad sign where now it's almost too much work
to load the thing, when before I'd occasionally make bread from scratch. 
Guess I'm spoiled.  ;)

BTW, you don't add dough... you put in all the ingredients, and 4 hours later
remove a loaf.  You can also take the dough out about halfway and do other
things, like make bagels or dinner rolls.  The machine does all the mixing
and kneading.

The mix-dough settings also allow you to make bread more quickly.  Mix first
batch of dough, put in loaf pan, let it rise & eventually bake in oven, while
another batch is mixing in bread machine.

I've still got my Zojirushi.  I like it okay but don't think it's the world's
best bread machine, even though I bought it because it was supposed to be the
Cadillac of bread machines.  We don't use it that often, partly because Jan
seems to prefer store bought bread, and partly because when I run it, it ends
up that I do the work and Jan does most the eating.  Sigh.  Store-bought might
be more expensive and less fun, but it is more egalitarian.

Before the Zoji, I had a Welbilt.  It was a much cheaper machine and actually
pretty decent.  It one day conked out (with ingredients on-board!) and could
not be fixed.  Evidently Welbilts are disposable; there's very little that
you can repair yourself, and around here there's nobody to service them.

Next time one dies, drop it off and we will take a look.  Sometimes there is
something simple like a broken wire or a fuse.

Thanks!  Danr and I took apart my dead Welbilt but didn't find anything
obviously fixable inside.  I ended up giving the carcass to tsty.  Dunno if
he managed to do anything useful with it.

About a year and a half ago, I replaced the Welbilt I had (same model as
Valerie's) with a Panasonic.  While the Panasonic has higher quality components
than the Welbilt, in some ways I liked the Welbilt better.  For example, the
Welbilt had more cycles, including a French Bread cycle. On that cycle, it did
produce bread that was closer to real French bread than the Panasonic does. 
The Welbilt also had a sweet bread cycle which I liked, too.

I still use mine all the time, and can count on one hand the number of times
I've bought a loaf of bread in the last five years. (I have a loaf of rye bread
baking even as I type.)

I offered to buy Kenn a bread machine if he would dedicate time to using 
it regularly. He said, "It's grain and yeast, right? If I can brew beer, 
I can certainly bake bread without mechanical assistance. Feh!" And he 
does a marvelous job of it. So no machine.

Can bread machines handle a 1:1 combination of whole wheat and whole rye
flour, which is heavy and sticky?  How about a recipe that calls for making
a sponge with 1/3 of the flour, letting it rise 2-3 hours, then adding the
rest of the flour and doing two more rises?  We have not used a machine but
brought two gallons of flour to some Russian friends with a machine.

A bread machine might not do well at *baking* a whole wheat/rye mix (in my
experience, unusual things tend to come out overdone) but you could use
it just to make dough, as I usually do.  If the dough is really too heavy 
so that the motor has trouble, try adding a little water.

As for sponges -- I used to do that, when I was making bread for two
people, mostly because it made the process easier on the wrists. (2-3 hours
seems a *long* time to leave it, though -- that must be a cold room)
If I wanted to sponge a bread machine product, I would unplug the machine
(or otherwise turn off) after letting it do its first mixing stage, then
come back at an appropriate time & start it over after adding the rest of
the ingredients.

Many thanks, we may try this tomorrow and had never used a machine.  Our
RUssian friends liked the bread we made and have a machine.  This dough is
supposed to be made rather wet anyway.  Do bread machines bake the bread in
a sealed chamber (unlike stove ovens, which are vented)?

All the bread machines I've dealt with have vents, and in fact run a fan to
cool down when baking is done.

For best results, you probably will need to fiddle with the recipe
(particularly flour/liquid proportions, possibly also bread machine cycles
or programming) to adapt a hand-bread recipe to bread-machine use.  If the
bread is good, it is fairly likely to be acceptable without much fiddling;
but it's likely to improve with experience.

When we showed up ready to learn to use a bread machine, we were given a
sample of bread made in the machine with our flour.  It was not made with our
recipe, and contained quite a bit of sugar.  I suspect they used a recipe that
came with the machine.  It worked.  They like it.  Thanks anyway.

My bread machine (Royal Kitchen Pro K6743) seems to have blown a gasket
in the pan's bottom bearing.  A quick call to Royal's 800 number found
that it was disconnected.  I've made on the order of 500 loaves of bread
with the machine, and it otherwise seems to be in perfectly good shape.

Any thoughts on strategy?  Search the web or local stores for a replace-
ment pan, buy a whole new machine, look for a used unit (preferably one
suffering from owner disinterest), or ???

Drop by and let Jim play with it?  He likes to diagnose mechanical problems.
Sometimes the part can be had in a hardware store, or made out of something.
My phone number is in my .plan. 

Unfortunately, the piece that died seems to be a silicon-rubber ring
on the paddle shaft, which seals between the ingredients/bread dough/
bread and greasy bearing.  It's got to keep that seal through lots of
baking cycles.  I'll look at it closer, but the situation would seem
resistent to clever solutions.

You can make it out of high temperature silicone caulk from an auto store,
says Jim.  Or he can do it for you.  Probably under $10 materials.  500
degrees is what the caulk should go to.

We had a similar (or similar-sounding) problem.  In our case, anyway,
the trouble was that the thing wasn't made to be disassembled.  We wound
up getting a replacement pan from the manufacturer, for almost as much
as a new machine would have cost, I think.

Regal wants $22 + S&H for a new pan....i've e-mailed them about what
S&H might be (just in case).

Yep, this one is mostly stamped together.

I haven't used my machine in ages and ages, and I don't know why as home made
bread is sooo good!

My folks got us a Toastmaster machine some time ago.  We just started
using it again recently, mostly because we had a number of ingredients
that were well on hand in plentiful amounts.  I'm able to get plenty of
wheat at my folks, and can grind there with their flour mill (it's a
stone grinder, not steel-- it must cool every so often so the stones
don't become glazed).  We have plenty of potato flakes and corn meal
from the food bank, so if I don't make a whole wheat loaf, I make potato
bread or cornbread.  Very often, I'll put in the whole wheat flour for
potato bread when it calls for bread flour, and I still have reasonable
results.

I'm also able to get bread flour and yeast in bulk at the grocery store
we often frequent-- although I am unsure if bulk yeast stays active.

by the way, the Poulsboro bread recipe was fabulous.

Wow, this item is like a flashback.

It's nice to know some folks are still using their bread machines.
We gave our up many many years ago when we realized we simply wanted
to eat less bread.  But I do miss the smell of fresh baked cinnamon
bread in the morning.

Forgive my ignorance, but how do you use one of these things anyways?
One of my long running frustrations living in Japan is that the bread
while of excellent quality tends to be a bit lacking in variety.

Would love to start cooking my own at home.  

What sorts of breads can you make?

Jim makes bread several times a week.  We have four or five working machines
at the moment.  Wet yeast should be refrigerated or frozen.  Dry yeast will
last longer if refrigerated or frozen.  You can test to see if it is still
alive before making bread with it.  (Put it in some water with a bit of sugar
and see if it eventually bubbles).  We made rice flour pancakes with yeast.

re: #353: Follow the instructions for your particular variety of machine.
Assemble it correctly, put in ingredients in the correct order, and push
the right buttons.

We've had too many of them over the years (and the Toastmaster we'd had
in reserve turned out to be defective, but its replacement seems to work
fine) and they vary .. some of them want liquids first, some liquids
last.  All of them overbake my favorite recipe, so I usually just use
the machine to make the dough and then bake it myself.  Last year we
were consuming about a loaf a day, but since Jonathan has gone off to
college it's more like four loaves a week (he'll be home for Thanksgiving
& I'm not sure how much bread to have on hand).

I buy yeast in quantity and keep it frozen or refrigerated except for
the little jar I'm currently using.  Every time I've suspected a problem
with yeast, it's turned out to be a problem with flour instead.

I've been having some problems with bread not rising enough.

Any suggestions/ideas?

Do you have an oven with a pilot light?  Yeast likes it about 80-90 degrees.
You can also put the bowl into a larger bowl which is filled with very warm
water, and put a towel or plastic over the top to keep the warm in.  If you
let it sit longer it should rise more, but if it rises slowly you might get
a sour dough effect (accentuated if you make the bread salty).   If you don't
knead it long enough it won't develop the gluten that it needs to trap air
bubbles in order to rise.

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