Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 2: General Announcements

Entered by i on Sun Jun 22 21:34:05 2003:

This is the general announcements item - the first of several 
announcement items.  Later items are more specific - announcements 
about Grex, Grex system problems, why you're happy, why you're 
bummed, etc. 

If you have something general to announce to Grexers, this is the 
place to put it!
335 responses total.

#1 of 335 by maryeliz on Mon Jun 23 02:01:26 2003:

Okay here's my announcement. I've decided that if i don't find a job within
the next 4 weeks that i'm going to go back to school. I've decided to further
what i already know on culinary arts. I figured that since i already know alot
about culinary arts that i might as well further what i already know and
hopefully get a really good job that way.


#2 of 335 by krj on Mon Jun 23 04:29:19 2003:

I got a flyer at the Saturday Farmers' Market which announced that 
Wooden Spoon Books is liquidating (again.)  All books $2 or less.
The effort to keep the store going as a cooperative did not work out.


#3 of 335 by polygon on Mon Jun 23 04:52:53 2003:

Awww....


#4 of 335 by aruba on Mon Jun 23 15:15:30 2003:

We had an interesting time last night:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mconger/raccoons.html


#5 of 335 by janc on Mon Jun 23 15:19:15 2003:

Cool page Mark.


#6 of 335 by janc on Mon Jun 23 15:22:21 2003:

(There are better ways to wrap HTML text around pictures though - use the
ALIGN=LEFT flag in the <IMG> tag and possibly a <BR CLEAR=LEFT> a while
later.  See http://www.unixpapa.com/burn/ for example.)


#7 of 335 by gregb on Mon Jun 23 15:33:56 2003:

I liked the way the flash reflected in their eyes.  Especially in the 
first pic.  LOOK OUT, IT'S THE MUTANT RACOONS!


#8 of 335 by carson on Mon Jun 23 15:49:26 2003:

(it sounds like maryeliz is ready to make the same decision I did a
couple of weeks ago.  good for her!)


#9 of 335 by remmers on Mon Jun 23 15:51:05 2003:

<remmers zaps the raccoon monsters with his annointed flail>

Oops, I've been playing too much Wizardry.  :)

Nice pictures, Mark.


#10 of 335 by aruba on Mon Jun 23 16:11:19 2003:

Thanks for the tip, Jan.  I modified the page to make it look better, and
put up Version 1.1.


#11 of 335 by eskarina on Mon Jun 23 16:39:59 2003:

I thought the page was cute, too.  :)


#12 of 335 by mary on Mon Jun 23 17:45:39 2003:

Fun stuff.  Especially when it's your neighbor's attic. ;-)


#13 of 335 by aruba on Mon Jun 23 17:56:15 2003:

Indeed. :)


#14 of 335 by mdw on Mon Jun 23 19:11:33 2003:

Especially when it's somebody's house far away.

I had raccoons living in my chimney for a while.  This was Not Good.  I
finally had to hire somebody to send my raccoons away in a barred cage
to Jackson.


#15 of 335 by tod on Mon Jun 23 19:16:07 2003:

This response has been erased.



#16 of 335 by mdw on Mon Jun 23 19:22:45 2003:

Well, um, there's the wicker kind, the wire kind, the chain link kind,
the expanded metal mesh kind, the perforated plastic kind, the ceramic
kind, ...


#17 of 335 by dcat on Mon Jun 23 20:24:10 2003:

we had raccoons living in our attic for several years.  eventually we
convinced our landlord (AA Realty) to do something about it, and they went
away.  I don't know what was actually done about it. . .


#18 of 335 by orinoco on Mon Jun 23 20:28:37 2003:

I imagine it was some sort of protection racket.  Your landlord just knew who
to pay off.


#19 of 335 by keesan on Mon Jun 23 20:52:03 2003:

What do raccoons do in Jackson.  One time when we were at the vegetable
gardens behind the Lutheran Church on Liberty Rd., we watched someone get out
of a car with a caged raccoon and release it.  Kind of them to supply it with
a steady diet of fresh vegetables.  


#20 of 335 by goose on Mon Jun 23 23:41:51 2003:

For those of you who know Evan Corcoran (login: cme), this is from his
brother:

Hello all,

 I'm writing to let you know that Evan had a serious bicycle-car accident
last Wednesday night at 1am.( 18.June). while bicycling home from work with
a friend, an SUV collided with the two of them at a roundabout.  The friend
was knocked off his bicycle and Evan was knocked out when he collided
head-on with the side of the SUV.  He has a broken right collarbone
(clavicle), some stitches on his right arm, thwacked his head, and is
generally beaten up.  He's doing well considering the seriousness of the
accident, and is at home resting.  He could use your thoughts and contact.
All previous plans (including climing Mt. Rainier) are on indefinite hold.
The doc said he would probably heal fine, although there is nothing they can
do to set clavicles properly in place.  The doc suggested an 8-12 week
healing time for this.  So he'll be out of circulation for awhile.  On the
bright side he may end up ambidexterous since he has to use his left for
everything now.


#21 of 335 by keesan on Mon Jun 23 23:44:25 2003:

Don't know him, but as bikers, we sympathize.  I have always steered clear
of cars but Jim got hit by one, and a small truck drove over him and then
backed up over him (he was not hurt, somehow).  Cars tend not to look at
anything smaller than they are, but how can you miss TWO?  I hope the driver
lost their license.  Best wishes for a relatively painless recovery.


#22 of 335 by jmsaul on Mon Jun 23 23:58:39 2003:

Wow.  I'm glad it wasn't worse.  I didn't know Evan well, but please pass on
my best wishes.


#23 of 335 by tsty on Tue Jun 24 03:55:19 2003:

cool page ...
  
 http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mconger/raccoons.html
  
no pics! newtscape 4.79 os 9.2.2 javascript on, java off
?????


#24 of 335 by aruba on Tue Jun 24 04:20:19 2003:

Looks like Netscape has a problem with filenames that have spaces in them.
Try it again - I changed the filenames.


#25 of 335 by gull on Tue Jun 24 13:22:08 2003:

Re #4: Daww.  Baby raccoons are so cute. :>

Re #24: Technically, I think you have to escape spaces in URLs by
replacing them with "%20".  Most of the time you can get away with not
doing that, but not always.


#26 of 335 by goose on Tue Jun 24 14:53:13 2003:

I spoke to Evan last night.  He's not in a lot of pain, but does feel a bit
dull in the head.  I think his spirit is a bit broken as well.  I'll pass the
good wishes along when I speak to him next.


#27 of 335 by eprom on Tue Jun 24 15:06:01 2003:

did anyone notice a news article on cnn.com titled
"Apple: New Macs world's fastest PCs"???

A few years back, I was verbally beaten up by some
of my geek friends for refering to an apple as a PC.


#28 of 335 by tod on Tue Jun 24 17:43:48 2003:

This response has been erased.



#29 of 335 by remmers on Tue Jun 24 17:45:24 2003:

Re #20:  Geez, sorry to hear about the accident.  Best wishes to Evan
for a speedy recovery.


#30 of 335 by tod on Tue Jun 24 18:01:39 2003:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 335 by drew on Tue Jun 24 20:40:22 2003:

Re #21 re #20:
    Was the bike properly equipped with reflectors or lights?


#32 of 335 by mdw on Tue Jun 24 21:07:45 2003:

I've broken my right collar bone too.  It's 3 months of annoyance, but
shouldn't leave any lasting signs (except for probably a crooked
collarbone with interesting "bumps").  At least in my case, it was never
very painful, the annoyance is mainly in terms of keeping things roughly
lined up and stationary while they knit up, then in getting the shoulder
joint to loosen up afterwards.  About the only thing the doctors are
good for is to give you a sort of shoulder harness that is supposed to
help keep things stretched out so they heal right, which is only
moderately helpful.


#33 of 335 by cross on Tue Jun 24 21:50:39 2003:

This response has been erased.



#34 of 335 by naftee on Wed Jun 25 03:21:24 2003:

Did he lose any teeth?


#35 of 335 by goose on Wed Jun 25 15:23:19 2003:

Thanks for all the info and well wishes, I'll pass those along.

RE#31 -- I don't know about lights or reflectors, but given he's a fairly
hardcore biker, and his brother is a totally hardcore biker (coast to coast
a couple years ago) I'm fairly certain teh bike was properly equipped.

RE#34 -- No, he kept all his teeth


#36 of 335 by naftee on Thu Jun 26 00:50:10 2003:

That's good. What a bummer.


#37 of 335 by oggi on Thu Jun 26 06:51:18 2003:

i think i lost my pimp juice.


#38 of 335 by mary on Fri Jun 27 14:19:51 2003:

The web site that allows you to register your phone number
on the national "Do Not Call" list is up.  It's at:

http://www.donotcall.gov



#39 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Jun 27 14:27:25 2003:

(And probably overwhelmed. :)


#40 of 335 by gregb on Fri Jun 27 14:53:22 2003:

It is.  Just tried to get there a couple times.  Both times--after 
waiting about a minute--I got the "no DNS..." error page.


#41 of 335 by jep on Fri Jun 27 15:16:04 2003:

I got past the "no DNS" but was then told I'd be receiving two e-
mails "shortly".  It's been about 2 hours and no e-mails have arrived.


#42 of 335 by keesan on Fri Jun 27 17:52:00 2003:

I may have finally found a way to stop the twice monthly Comcast junk mails.
I hunted all over their website for an email address and found one in Investor
Relations.  On the theory that they would be more considerate of their
investors than of their victims, I emailed and got back, so far, two very
polite emails stating that they would forward all my addresses to marketing.

I phoned SBC for the tenth time.  They have, indeeded, blocked 'enhanced
repeat dialing' but the block is not working.  The repair service will check
out why I am still getting the recorded commercial asking for 75 cents
instead of a busy signal.  Last time they check this out by phoning Jim from
my number, but they goofed and checked out the recording that occurs after
8 rings.  Someone clever has already fixed the broken programming on this one.
I now get a friendly phone call from SBC about once a week asking if I am
happy with my service.


Charter One bank has been pestering us with junk mail.  When Jim asked to be
taken off the list he was sent a form letter that required him to fill in his
name, address, phone number, email address and social security number before
they could remove his address from their mailing list or promise not to share
it with third parties.  I phoned when I got more junk mail yesterday and the
guy there insisted there was no way to get off their junk mail list without
providing a social security number so I asked him to mail me the form, which
I would send along to the Michigan Attorney General's Office to report this
as a scam, and maybe they could get us off the junk mail list.  The clerk I
was talking to said it was not a scam, but they did need my SSN.  I asked for
marketing and got forwarded to a recorded FAQ that said to hang up when I was
done listening.  I called again, and went through the same procedure including
the FAQ.  In order to get the form mailed to me, this time I had to provide
a name (they had mailed to 'neighbor').  He insisted I make one up, so now
I will probably start getting heaps of junk mail addressed to A B.  We are
still trying to kill Herman Loth.  Last company had preapproved a mortgage
to this imaginary character (which someone somewhere created by hybridizing
two characters Jim made up as a joke).  They insisted they got all their lists
of names from the public records and Herman must be listed at our county
building, rather than Jim, as the owner of his house.  Nobody sends Herman
tax notices.


#43 of 335 by goose on Fri Jun 27 18:48:15 2003:

RE#38 -- It was Slashdotted this morning.


#44 of 335 by jep on Fri Jun 27 19:43:41 2003:

After 7 hours, I still have not received the e-mails from the 
nospam.gov site.


#45 of 335 by tod on Fri Jun 27 20:53:36 2003:

This response has been erased.



#46 of 335 by gull on Fri Jun 27 21:06:27 2003:

I haven't had much luck with the website.  It's too overloaded.  Doesn't
matter, though, since it doesn't take effect until October anyway.


#47 of 335 by keesan on Fri Jun 27 21:52:58 2003:

I would like to see a national 'do not write' list to protect addresses. 
The post office is required to sell them.


#48 of 335 by keesan on Fri Jun 27 22:16:32 2003:

I checked out the Michigan Consumer Protection Division.  They have decided
not to  bother with a Michigan 'do not call' list, which would have cost $5
per phone number to get onto, but to enforce the free national one.  If you
get onto the list by Aug 31 the telemarketers have until Oct. 31 to stop
calling you.  If you miss that deadline, it may take 3 months for them to
stop.  (This implies that the telemarketers have to buy a new list every three
months).  You can still get annoying phone calls from politicians, deputy
sheriffs, anyone else asking for donations or contributions, anyone calling
to arrange a face to face meeting but not specifically asking you in the phone
call to buy anything, etc.  I am going to be rude to a lot of deputy sheriffs.

One piece of good news is they have banned recorded announcements.  Problem
is that the recorded announcements don't usually include phone numbers so it
is hard to track down where they came from when they clog your answering
machine.  Jim says he gets about one a day of recorded announcement or hangup.


#49 of 335 by glenda on Fri Jun 27 22:27:15 2003:

Jim is lucky.  We get much more than that.  At least 5 a day and some days
up to 25.  Most of them don't leave a message, but they show up on our
answering machine anyway, usually with caller unknown on the ider.  Recently
a lot of "Atlanta call", "Flordia call", and the ocassional "Alaska call".
I'd like to know what those are, but they just hang up when the answering
machine picks up.  We screen ALL calls so I don't know what they do if the
phone is actually answered.


#50 of 335 by tod on Fri Jun 27 22:40:46 2003:

This response has been erased.



#51 of 335 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 22:52:52 2003:

They allow "anyone calling to arrange a face to face meeting but not
specifically asking you in the phone call to buy anything"?  Sheesh.  I
can see a lot of telemarketers coming up with new and even more annoying
spiels to drive through that loophole.


#52 of 335 by johnnie on Fri Jun 27 22:58:02 2003:

I had no problems whatsoever with the "no call" website, but then I was 
on it at 6am...

re #48 - Virtually every call you'll ever get from someone claiming to 
be raising money for the police (or for firemen) will be a scam.  Be as 
rude as you like.


#53 of 335 by dcat on Fri Jun 27 23:15:49 2003:

resp:48,49 -- I think my parents are already on DNC lists.  Aside from the
occasional misguided siding or roofing salesman --- easily turned aside, as
we don't own the house --- we get virtually no calls.  At all.

Having only one phone line, and having it frequently occupied by the modem
for long stretches of time, probably doesn't hurt, either.


#54 of 335 by tod on Fri Jun 27 23:23:54 2003:

This response has been erased.



#55 of 335 by rcurl on Sat Jun 28 05:19:41 2003:

I do the same. I now get very few marketing calls - there hasn't been one
for several weeks, except one political fund raiser, which would be sanctioned
anyway (I was still rude).


#56 of 335 by keesan on Sat Jun 28 05:30:39 2003:

Why can't the political parties also not call people on the don't call list?
I think the Michigan rules take effect June 30, after which I can try to
report recorded phone messages.


#57 of 335 by keesan on Sat Jun 28 05:58:16 2003:

I did some reading at the www.donotcall.gov site.  No crowds at 1 am.
The FCC is working on eliminating the loopholes which allow banks, insurance
companies, airlines and long distance phone companies to annoy us.  You can
still be called by people soliciting donations but they have to put you on
their own list and not call again.  

I entered three numbers, selected SUBMIT, and got:


                                     ERROR

The requested URL could not be retrieved
     _________________________________________________________________

   While trying to retrieve the URL:
   [1]http://www.donotcall.gov/register/Reg.aspx

   The following error was encountered:
     * Read Error 

   The system returned:
    (54) Connection reset by peer

   An error condition occurred while reading data from the network.
   Please retry your request.

   Your cache administrator is [2]staff@cyberspace.org.
     _________________________________________________________________

   Generated Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:05:19 GMT by gryps.cyberspace.org
   (squid/2.5.PRE5)

References

   1. http://www.donotcall.gov/register/Reg.aspx
   2. mailto:staff@cyberspace.org


Is this one of those sites that is crippled by javascript?  What is an
aspx?


#58 of 335 by marinego on Sat Jun 28 06:04:21 2003:

What I can do here??.


#59 of 335 by mary on Sat Jun 28 12:17:52 2003:

The process worked pretty well just now.  The web site was 
available, I entered our three phone numbers, and  mail 
came back asking for my confirmation.  I confirmed and they
reconfirmed our numbers are now on the list.

Now, on to junk mail. ;-)


#60 of 335 by orinoco on Sat Jun 28 16:06:31 2003:

Just the other day, I told a telemarketer to stop calling us, and he launched
into a long speech about the national do-not-call list.  I told him, "That's
okay, just take me off your list," and he said, "I will, but I'm required to
tell you all this first.  You can stop listening if you want."  


#61 of 335 by keesan on Sat Jun 28 21:25:52 2003:

What browsers have worked for this?  Lynx gives an error message.  Links
refuses to even access the site.  I might wait and try the 888 number in the
middle of the night.  Or try loading linux and opera.


#62 of 335 by dcat on Sat Jun 28 22:27:21 2003:

For me "!lynx www.donotcall.gov" from the PicoSpan prompt worked perfectly,
about an hour after your message.


#63 of 335 by keesan on Sat Jun 28 23:25:56 2003:

Thanks, I will try again.  Maybe something was busy.


#64 of 335 by albaugh on Sun Jun 29 01:08:42 2003:

IWLTA that I am grexing - only long enough to post this, I'm afraid - from
beyond the international date line!  :-)  I'm sitting at a PC in a Cyber Cafe
("Phil 101") in Barangay (barrio) ng Poblacion ("downtown"), Bayan ("town")
ng San Miguel (de Mayumo), Province ng Bulacan, Republika ng Pilipinas
(Philippines).  Grex is *everywhere*!  ;-)


#65 of 335 by polytarp on Sun Jun 29 01:29:19 2003:

Nerd.


#66 of 335 by russ on Sun Jun 29 06:14:45 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 78 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.78


#67 of 335 by jaklumen on Sun Jun 29 07:59:43 2003:

resp:60 I've done that gig before and it is the truth.  Required by 
law if I remember correctly.

I think a saw a news story on this.  I just laughed when I heard some 
spokesman for the telemarketers all but whine about the law, and the 
narrator say that they claim it hurts their business.  Bullshit.  
Telemarketing is looking for needles in a haystack-- the professionals 
*will* admit that-- and I don't think it's particularly efficient or 
effective.


#68 of 335 by keesan on Sun Jun 29 09:44:11 2003:

I got through with lynx about 10 pm tonight.  The telemarketers are looking
for a few very stupid victims, same as the spammers.


#69 of 335 by rcurl on Sun Jun 29 16:56:38 2003:

I think a large part of their successes must be lonely people that get
some solace from the telemarketers - no one else is calling them.



#70 of 335 by keesan on Sun Jun 29 22:33:39 2003:

A friend currently staying with his mother while she has surgery reports that
one telemarketer got really nasty and wanted to know if the person on the
phone really lived there.  I think his mother must be on a sucker list. 
Someone talked her into borrowing the money (with the house as security) to
replace all her doors and windows.  They worked.  The house has zero
insulation and needs a new roof.  If she cannot come up with the money to
repay, they get the house (with new windows).  

Has anyone got an email from donotcall yet?


#71 of 335 by aruba on Sun Jun 29 23:03:31 2003:

I got an email back, in order to complete my registration.  Is that what you
mean?


#72 of 335 by slynne on Sun Jun 29 23:10:03 2003:

I got an email back too that allowed me to complete my registration. IT 
took about 24 hours or so


#73 of 335 by i on Mon Jun 30 00:02:02 2003:

My older brother reports that he gets *extremely* few junk calls.  But
he works nights, has sleep problems, has been around some really rough
places, and *knows the rules* on the (very few) things that you really
can't say to *someone who called you*.  Somewhere, it seems that they
keep a psycho/hate/etc. list of folks who are too emotionally traumatic
on their employees to be worth calling...


#74 of 335 by beeswing on Mon Jun 30 00:02:36 2003:

Yah, same here. I put my home number, my cell number (I get
telemarketing calls on that sometimes) and my parents number. I was
getting up to 7 calls a day at home. 

We changed my grandparents' phone number to an unlisted when they were
falling prey to telemarketers. My grandfather has dementia and is hard
of hearing. The cable people called and talked him into a cable package
with all the movie channels, jacking up their cable bill. My grandfather
didn't understand what it was and didn't know what it was signing up
for. My mom had to call the cable people and got the number changed.


#75 of 335 by keesan on Mon Jun 30 00:05:39 2003:

How do the telemarketers get hold of cell phone numbers and isn't that
illegal?


#76 of 335 by jep on Mon Jun 30 00:05:57 2003:

I submitted the form again to donotcall.gov, using my home e-mail 
instead of M-Net, and this time I got a response in a minute or two.  
My mother ran across this information, and signed herself up before I 
could even tell her about it.  I'd say it's working much more smoothly 
now than it was at first!


#77 of 335 by rcurl on Mon Jun 30 01:58:18 2003:

You can ask for donotcall for *any* phone number. Shouldn't there be some
check on you being the account holder for the phones? Not that I would
have minded someone else putting my phones on donotcall, but....gee wiz....
that would be kind of presumptuous. 

I got on donotcall.gov with no trouble, and the e-mails came back in just
a few hours.


#78 of 335 by beeswing on Mon Jun 30 05:18:07 2003:

My parents were majorly happy that I'd put their number on the list.

No, there's no check to see if that is the account holder's number.

I usually got long distance telemarketing calls on my cell. Not very
often, but I want none. So it goes on the list too.


#79 of 335 by uty on Mon Jun 30 05:48:40 2003:

ok


#80 of 335 by dcat on Mon Jun 30 05:57:41 2003:

Because of the fact that the subscriber pays for airtime on calls received
as well as sent, telemarketing calls to cellular customers are prohibited.
I'll try to look up chapter & verse in the morning if someone hasn't beaten
me to it.


#81 of 335 by aruba on Mon Jun 30 14:11:49 2003:

<conspiracy-theory>
  I hope this isn't all some government plot to generate a list of numbers
  and associate them with email addresses.  I wonder if we'll all be getting
  spam or something worse from this in the future.
</conspiracy-theory>


#82 of 335 by oval on Mon Jun 30 15:08:26 2003:

..i was thinking this too....doing exactly what usually causes the spam to
get rid of it??



#83 of 335 by gull on Mon Jun 30 15:36:02 2003:

If you're worried about giving your email address, there will soon be a
toll-free phone number you can use to register your number.

Me, I just registered on the site.  My email address is already
associated with my phone number via WHOIS, anyhow.


#84 of 335 by lynne on Mon Jun 30 18:30:54 2003:

<imagines potential lawsuits over being unknowingly put on the do not call
list..."dammit, those telemarketers were my entire social life!">


#85 of 335 by gull on Mon Jun 30 19:27:04 2003:

I suspect the goal is to prevent people from being unknowingly taken
*off*.  There's a form for that too, and if they didn't require an email
address for verification, it's not hard to imagine some unscrupulous
telemarketing company writing a 'bot to remove whole swaths of numbers.
 Presumably when you request to be removed from the list, they email the
same address you used to register and wait for a confirmation.


#86 of 335 by keesan on Mon Jun 30 23:48:35 2003:

I have not received a confirmation email - two days since I submitted.


#87 of 335 by glenda on Tue Jul 1 00:07:39 2003:

Then submit again.  It took less than 5 minutes for my confirmation email to
arrive yesterday.


#88 of 335 by janc on Tue Jul 1 01:49:37 2003:

Katherine Hepburn died.  That's a pair of shoes that will never be filled.


#89 of 335 by slynne on Tue Jul 1 02:15:47 2003:

No kidding


#90 of 335 by beeswing on Tue Jul 1 04:24:14 2003:

The loons, Norman! The loons!

(sorry).


#91 of 335 by tod on Tue Jul 1 04:34:26 2003:

This response has been erased.



#92 of 335 by cross on Tue Jul 1 05:41:01 2003:

This response has been erased.



#93 of 335 by goose on Tue Jul 1 14:08:46 2003:

Yeah, that was my experience Dan.  However, I've yet to be able to click on
the link to complete the deal.  It always tells me that the website is
unavailable and to try again later.


#94 of 335 by anderyn on Tue Jul 1 14:19:42 2003:

I got the email late Friday night (I registered Friday morning/afternoon, and
clicked on it on Monday), and it was relatively painless.


#95 of 335 by tpryan on Tue Jul 1 20:01:01 2003:

        Loopsided triagle this time, as Buddy Hacket was found dead
on Monday.


#96 of 335 by keesan on Tue Jul 1 22:28:10 2003:

I was persistent and kept going back to the site when I got error messages
or got there and could not arrow up and down, and finally signed in and got
my three emails a few minutes later.  Last time I had not done the second
stage of the sign-in as I did not realize I had to page down to see it.


#97 of 335 by slynne on Wed Jul 2 13:31:53 2003:

If anyone wants a coupon for 20% off at Borders/Waldenbooks, here is a 
URL you can go to

http://www.bordersstores.com/features/feature.jsp?file=friendsandfamily


#98 of 335 by tod on Wed Jul 2 16:51:53 2003:

This response has been erased.



#99 of 335 by gregb on Wed Jul 2 17:11:12 2003:

This response has been erased.



#100 of 335 by gregb on Wed Jul 2 17:13:37 2003:

Thanks, Lynne.  I'm a Borders regular, so I can definitely use it.


#101 of 335 by polytarp on Thu Jul 3 04:59:04 2003:

THANK YOU SLYNEE!


#102 of 335 by tod on Thu Jul 3 18:40:42 2003:

This response has been erased.



#103 of 335 by goose on Thu Jul 3 21:04:33 2003:

That is really funny.


#104 of 335 by dcat on Fri Jul 4 01:02:16 2003:

Anyone click on the links in the text?  It just gets better :-D


#105 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Jul 4 01:45:24 2003:

And don't miss

        http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/blair.html


#106 of 335 by jaklumen on Sat Jul 5 09:34:02 2003:

resp:103-104 Interesting, and yep.


#107 of 335 by tsty on Sun Jul 6 06:48:51 2003:

regarding hte    dnc   lists - i hope that that is for 'selling' calls
only.
  
thre is a LOT of legitimate (no money involved) research that
requires a statistical random sampling given the universe of
available phn numbers.
  
at least if ithe   dnc list is for 'sales' then the only pestering 
calls will be from  survey/research  stuff - and i heartly recommmend that
those calls be received with grace  .. adn answers .. 


#108 of 335 by rcurl on Sun Jul 6 17:11:13 2003:

You cannot get a "statistical random sampling" (of what?, by the way) by
telephone, because of the biases from who usually answers the phone, from
who is at home a lot, from who will or will not cooperate, and from the
demographic distribution of phone numbers. 

Also by the way - who do you consider "legitimate" telephone pollsters? 




#109 of 335 by mdw on Mon Jul 7 01:32:48 2003:

I certainly don't cooperate with telephone surveys anymore.  At one
point in the late 80's I ended up on somebody's "list".  Everytime they
had a survey, they would call me up.  Statistically, I assume they were
figuring that by hitting the same subset each time, they could more
easily correct for bias.  I cooperated with this for a while.  Then I
got a "farmer jack's" survey.  I'm sure this one was professionally
oriented, but all of the questions were very narrowly tailored, and
almost completely irrelevant for me, as I was doing most of my shopping
at PFC at the time.  I got annoyed at the assumptions that were being
made, and refused to cooperate with any more surveys.


#110 of 335 by scott on Mon Jul 7 06:57:38 2003:

I tend to see surveys as a way to push my agenda.  That, or question the
surveyor on minutae of the questions and why they don't have an option which
I consider optimimum.  ;)


#111 of 335 by gull on Mon Jul 7 14:06:12 2003:

I often cooperate with political surveys, but no other ones.  I think I
did hang up on one that was obviously a "push poll" once.


#112 of 335 by rcurl on Mon Jul 7 15:39:02 2003:

How can answering a survey "push" your agenda, Scott? Although they
probably have a personal opinion, the surveyors can't do anything about
your minutia. If they are personally involved they might enjoy discussing
it with you, but then they are just filling out a form.



#113 of 335 by cross on Mon Jul 7 19:28:34 2003:

This response has been erased.



#114 of 335 by charcat on Wed Jul 9 04:47:08 2003:

I just received my first spam at my regular e-mail address, something 
about expanding a part of my male anatomy. The thing is the only one I 
gave that address to lately was the "do not call" websight. Hmm...


#115 of 335 by jor on Wed Jul 9 07:16:13 2003:

        aha!


#116 of 335 by other on Wed Jul 9 14:35:06 2003:

Not conclusive....


#117 of 335 by remmers on Wed Jul 9 14:40:25 2003:

But interesting...


#118 of 335 by fuzzman on Wed Jul 9 16:48:04 2003:

Re: 114 - Probably a dictionary attack.


#119 of 335 by carson on Thu Jul 10 15:45:26 2003:

(happy birthday James Cleaveland [fka randall] and Philip Baskette
[fka pbmax]!  and to Heather Martin, Who Is Not A Grexer!)


#120 of 335 by cmcgee on Fri Jul 11 15:37:40 2003:

I have a student with Cisco certification, CAEN (and multiple other) network
experience, and a strong Unix background.  Can anyone help me hook him up with
some work (part or full time)?

Email me here if you have any suggestions.


#121 of 335 by novomit on Sat Jul 12 15:50:04 2003:

www.geekcorps.org


#122 of 335 by russ on Sun Jul 13 15:16:05 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 79 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.79


#123 of 335 by tsty on Thu Jul 17 05:44:11 2003:

re #24 ... VeryKewlPics now appear on your raccoon page - sweet!
  
   http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mconger/raccoons.html
  
i live-trapped, oh, maybe 9/10/11 or so and drove them out to
the country nd released them near someone *elses's* house .. 
<heh-heh>


#124 of 335 by russ on Thu Jul 17 23:12:19 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 80 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.80


#125 of 335 by keesan on Fri Jul 18 14:49:28 2003:

I called SBC for the 13th or 14th time to report that I was still getting 'Let
repeat dialing.....'.  The guy I got said he was a supervisor and he would
put some big guns on the project.  The last person had the theory that people
had cancelled repeat dialing but not the announcement, so she cancelled the
announcement.  This time they will look into programming errors, which was
the problem with the commercial after 8 rings.   While working on this task
he tried to sell me a cell phone.


#126 of 335 by tod on Fri Jul 18 20:13:33 2003:

This response has been erased.



#127 of 335 by cross on Fri Jul 18 21:38:33 2003:

This response has been erased.



#128 of 335 by tod on Fri Jul 18 21:57:53 2003:

This response has been erased.



#129 of 335 by mary on Fri Jul 18 23:51:29 2003:

After calling for help take an aspirin.  If you
are alone move to somewhere where you can be seen
or at the very least unlock your front door.

Then lay still and wait for help.

That would be my advice.


#130 of 335 by jmsaul on Sat Jul 19 04:32:41 2003:

The cough thing has been pretty vigorously debunked -- it apparently can work,
but only for certain types of heart attacks, and is actively bad for others.
Listen to Mary.

  http://www.snopes.com/toxins/coughcpr.htm

Excerpt:

If you were a doctor and knew exactly what you were doing, it might help save
your life. If, however, you are not a physician and you misjudge the kind of
cardiac event you're experiencing, cough CPR could kill. This "helpful" e-mail
could help you right into a grave. 


#131 of 335 by happyboy on Sat Jul 19 19:05:05 2003:

well, thanks alot, mister party pooper.

><
--


#132 of 335 by jmsaul on Sat Jul 19 20:32:55 2003:

Sorry dude.  I know you were counting on it.


#133 of 335 by happyboy on Sat Jul 19 23:08:47 2003:

/goes back to eating cheeze-puffs


#134 of 335 by russ on Tue Jul 22 21:25:23 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 81 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.81


#135 of 335 by munkey on Thu Jul 24 18:07:47 2003:

Iwlta that we are having a gathering for Bay Area Grexers in San Francisco
this Sunday, July 27th at 6:30pm. Everyone is invited. We are having dinner
at a Peruvian restaurant called Fina Estampas. The url for more information
is: http://www.ktvu.com/restaurants/1893624/detail.html  I think Steve
(scg) will make an item of this or something. Or if someone wants to put it in
the motd ;) Thanks! See you there Californians ;)


#136 of 335 by tod on Thu Jul 24 18:13:11 2003:

This response has been erased.



#137 of 335 by mynxcat on Thu Jul 24 20:17:57 2003:

What's Peruvian food like? I wat to go to Frisco :(


#138 of 335 by slynne on Thu Jul 24 20:23:38 2003:

Me too!


#139 of 335 by cross on Thu Jul 24 21:59:26 2003:

This response has been erased.



#140 of 335 by munkey on Fri Jul 25 04:20:04 2003:

Peruvian food is garlicky (sp?) ;) and sometimes very hot. It reminds me of
of carribean and spanish food put together. The last time I was there I got
a seafood Paella, also called Paella Valenciana. It was soooo goood! Hey if
you know anyone from the bay area.. let them know we are getting together!


#141 of 335 by scott on Fri Jul 25 11:57:42 2003:

Amsterdam Grexer clees will be in Frankenmuth, MI on Tuesday, and I'm driving
up from A2 to hang out with him.  Still have some car seats empty...


#142 of 335 by aruba on Sat Jul 26 19:12:26 2003:

Scott - what time are you going?  I have to be back for the board meeting at
7, but would like to come and meet clees.


#143 of 335 by scott on Sat Jul 26 20:29:54 2003:

I'm probably going mid-afternoon, but staying for dinner.


#144 of 335 by jaklumen on Sat Jul 26 21:33:20 2003:

paella valenciana was Spanish, last time I remembered.  Peruvian food 
sounds interesting.  Wonder if they do anything interesting with 
potatoes (the potato is native to Peru and grows in over a 100 
varieties there)


#145 of 335 by aruba on Sat Jul 26 23:39:11 2003:

Re #143: I guess it won't work out then.  Bummer.


#146 of 335 by gelinas on Sun Jul 27 01:22:54 2003:

I don't know what my schedule on Tuesday will be, but perhaps we can go up
together, Mark.  I'd like to meet clees, too.


#147 of 335 by russ on Mon Jul 28 21:12:54 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 82 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.82


#148 of 335 by albaugh on Tue Jul 29 16:50:21 2003:

IWLTA that I saw something I thought was cool at the Sandy Beach "park" at
Baw Beese Lake outside of Hillsdale:  They had an inflatable raft - which I
later learned was called the Iceberg - white, which judging by the height of
the kids I saw on it, rose ~12 feet at its top, pyramid shaped.  It had grab
handles as you would see for rock climbing.  The kids swam out to it from
shore (~100 yards), wearing life preservers, and were free to climb it, jump
off it, fall off it, into water which I assume was sufficiently deep, while
a life guard watched from a nearby row boat.  I guess you paid your $2 for
maybe a half hour session.


#149 of 335 by russ on Tue Jul 29 23:13:58 2003:

Highlights of RISKS digest volume 22 issue 82:

--      Diebold voting machines have flaws which would allow
        practically anyone (from voting officials to teenagers)
        to undetectably alter votes or vote as many times as
        they liked.

--      Inadequate security at a South African bank allowed a
        thief to steal account/PIN combinations and transfer
        other people's money to himself.

--      A thief in NYC used keyloggers on computers at Kinko's
        to steal credit card numbers.

And more (the last item is hilarious).  /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.82


#150 of 335 by katie on Tue Jul 29 23:40:44 2003:


Ok: !Saddam



#151 of 335 by gelinas on Wed Jul 30 04:21:54 2003:

IWLTA that my schedule worked out for a trip to Frankenmuth this afternoon.


#152 of 335 by keesan on Wed Jul 30 17:07:58 2003:

After 14 phone calls in which I asked to get rid of the recording that I am
getting instead of a busy signal ("let repeat dialing ..... 75 cents"), in
which people either never heard of repeat dialing, or said they had cancelled
it, then said you had to cancel enhanced repeat dialing, then said you had
to cancel the recording separately, etc., someone said they would sic the big
guns on this problem (it was all cancelled and the recording persists).  The
result of all this is that today I got an automated email from the SBC
Internet dept. saying they could only deal with my problem if I had an SBC
IP address.  


#153 of 335 by albaugh on Thu Jul 31 17:56:13 2003:

Subject: CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH MARS...Once in a Lifetime Viewing

Never again in your lifetime will the Red Planet be so spectacular. 
 
Earth is catching up with Mars, an encounter that will culminate in the 
closest approach between the two planets in recorded history. 
 
The next time Mars may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way 
Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can 
only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 
5,000 years but it may be as long as 60,000 years. 
 
The encounter will culminate on Tuesday, August 27th when Mars comes to 
within 34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the moon) the brightest 
object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will 
appear 25.11 arc seconds wide. 
 
At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will look as large as the full 
moon to he naked eye. Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August
Mars will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m.
But by the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise
at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m. 
 
That's pretty convenient when it comes to seeing something that no human 
has seen in recorded history. So, mark your calendar at the beginning 
of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter 
throughout the month. 
 
Share with your children and grandchildren. 
No one alive today will ever see this again. 
 
        http://www.space.com/spacewatch/where_is_mars.html 
 
 


#154 of 335 by gelinas on Thu Jul 31 18:59:23 2003:

(I think the second sentence of the antepenultimate paragraph should have used
"zenith" instead of "azimuth": Mars will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach
its _zenith_ at about 3 a.m."


#155 of 335 by keesan on Thu Jul 31 19:55:14 2003:

Will you be able to see Mars from downtown Ann Arbor on a clear day?


#156 of 335 by tpryan on Thu Jul 31 20:05:03 2003:

        Apparently, since it will rise at night, it will take a clear
night.  ;)


#157 of 335 by mary on Thu Jul 31 23:22:52 2003:

I think we should have a Grexpedition to Peach Mountain
observatory on one of the three open houses that will
be happening during this window.


#158 of 335 by tod on Thu Jul 31 23:30:25 2003:

This response has been erased.



#159 of 335 by i on Fri Aug 1 00:25:16 2003:

Just under the observatory.


#160 of 335 by mcnally on Fri Aug 1 01:46:27 2003:

  After moving out of my apartment in Bellevue, WA, and after much travel
  across the northern United States and western Canada, I have settled for
  the time being in Ketchikan, AK, where I plan to stay for at least the
  rest of the summer, possibly longer, as I figure out what I'd like to do
  next.

  I've been quite enjoying myself so far, enjoying lots of time on the
  beautiful sheltered waterways of the Inside Passage and out in the stunning
  forests that cover the myriad islands of SE Alaska.

  Participation on Grex will remain infrequent at least until the remainder
  of my household goods (including computer) arrive (via barge) from Seattle
  and possibly for a while thereafter.  I've been spending about half of my
  time in Ketchikan and half exploring the area nearby, camping and/or visiting
  remote forest service cabins (beyond the end of the road system and only 
  reachable by boat or seaplane) with my sister and friends.  Once I settle
  in a bit and get a home internet connection set up, I'll post some pictures
  from my travels (once I find a place to host them..)

  If anyone's cruising Alaska this summer, your ship will almost certainly
  be stopping in Ketchikan.  Drop me a line if you'll be coming ashore.



#161 of 335 by jaklumen on Fri Aug 1 06:49:13 2003:

Crap-- well, there goes my plan to visit Mike.  Ah well-- the only 
time I was coming near the Seattle area was in late August for a 
family reunion (wife's side) with all her family members.

Might have to go visit Todd instead ;)


#162 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 1 17:40:10 2003:

This response has been erased.



#163 of 335 by polytarp on Fri Aug 1 17:40:34 2003:

You wouldn't be.


#164 of 335 by jaklumen on Sat Aug 2 03:51:52 2003:

Didn't ask you, bub.


#165 of 335 by polytarp on Sat Aug 2 18:09:19 2003:

I hardly see how that bars me from commenting, fatty.


#166 of 335 by naftee on Sat Aug 2 19:21:15 2003:

Arbornet just died. Like, JUST died. Like, died a couple minutes ago.


#167 of 335 by jep on Sat Aug 2 19:34:02 2003:

M-Net is fine, though.


#168 of 335 by naftee on Wed Aug 6 04:22:12 2003:

Sure is.


#169 of 335 by russ on Thu Aug 7 22:33:56 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 83 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.83


#170 of 335 by krj on Thu Aug 7 22:48:55 2003:

Downtown East Lansing hosts the Great Lakes Folk Festival this weekend,
Friday August 8 through Sunday August 10.   The biggest names at the 
festival will be bluegrass/old-time legend Ralph Stanley (one performance
only, 8 pm Saturday), the Barra MacNeils (Scottish folk/pop from 
Cape Breton), Irish-American singer Cathie Ryan, and African thumb-piano
player Stella Chiweshe.  There's also Scandinavian music, Cajun, 
traditional American folk, and probably more.  
 
http://www.greatlakesfolkfest.net
 
The festival is located in the heart of downtown East Lansing; its 
east edge is approximately where El Azteco is, and it stretches 
west towards the bus station and Valley Court Park.  Four stages, and
some craft and food areas.
 
The festival is free, though roving gangs of official fundraisers 
will try to get you to donate some money.


#171 of 335 by edina on Fri Aug 8 14:41:58 2003:

That's a seriously great line-up!!  Dr. Ralph for free!?? That's amazing.


#172 of 335 by gregb on Fri Aug 8 15:07:16 2003:

Now there's something I haven't seen in years.  I remember learning how 
to play a thumb piano (a.k.a, sansa) back in high school.  It was a 
little sore at first, but when my callouses built up, it was great.


#173 of 335 by goose on Fri Aug 8 18:40:44 2003:

A report on WOUM this morning said that this may be the last year of the
festival.


#174 of 335 by krj on Fri Aug 8 19:47:39 2003:

That would be sad but not unsurprising, given the current budgetary 
crises for the City of East Lansing and Michigan State University, who 
cover a large share of the costs.


#175 of 335 by krj on Fri Aug 8 19:50:57 2003:

(Lansing State Journal coverage says the festival is looking at cutbacks
for next year but doesn't suggest that the festival would likely close:
 
http://www.lsj.com/things/events/030808folk_1a-5a.html

)


#176 of 335 by albaugh on Tue Aug 12 18:00:53 2003:

[The web site and information given below are legitimate.  Unsure about
 true efficacy of the "click for food" mechanism, but it's there.      ]



Animal Rescue

Your help is appreciated. :-)  It takes 2 seconds and costs nothing!

Animal Rescue League Request           This seems pretty simple...

Please tell ten friends to tell ten today! The Animal Rescue Site
is having trouble getting enough people to click on it daily to
meet their quota of getting free food donated every day to abused
and neglected animals. It takes less than a minute to go to their
site and click on "feed an animal in need" for free. This doesn't
cost you a thing. Their corporate sponsors/advertisers use the
number of daily visits to donate food to abandoned/neglected
animals in exchange for advertising. Here's the website! Pass it
along to people you know. The address is:

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/



#177 of 335 by albaugh on Wed Aug 13 16:45:01 2003:

IWLTA that at 4 o'clock ET this morning, looking south into the crystal clear
night sky (at least it was in western Wayne county, in Plymouth), was one of
the most beautiful sights you're likely to see with the naked eye:  Pretty
close to the left of the bright moon, just past its full, was a very bright
object.  This is the planet Mars, which we have been told is as close to Earth
as it has been in perhaps 60,000 years.


#178 of 335 by gregb on Wed Aug 13 19:41:27 2003:

Actually, that was mentioned in an earlier post.  Bu the 27th, it's 
supposed to be the closest.  I sure hope it's clear that night.


#179 of 335 by oval on Thu Aug 14 14:22:08 2003:

ya i've been looking for a way to find out where it can be viewed at what
times and suchlike.



#180 of 335 by scott on Thu Aug 14 16:20:13 2003:

Was very clear last night.


#181 of 335 by jep on Thu Aug 14 19:56:09 2003:

Sterling Commerce is a reasonably large company, with about 2000 
employees.  It's no surprise that there's someone else named Perry; Jim 
Perry, who works at an office in Dublin, Ohio, (near Columbus).

It's no surprise that I occasionally get e-mail intended for him.  Jim 
Perry and John Perry are similar enough that someone who doesn't know 
about us both might well address an e-mail incorrectly.

However, yesterday things went farther.  Although Jim lives in Ohio, I 
received a US postal mail (originating from Sterling Commerce) for 
him.  I live in Michigan.

It appears his letter stuck to my letter  All employees received a 
message from the company yesterday.  I got his as well as mine.


#182 of 335 by russ on Sat Aug 16 13:48:52 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 85 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.85


#183 of 335 by russ on Sun Aug 17 15:14:10 2003:

As you might expect, the latest RISKS digest has a bunch of
(very early) commentary on the power outage, but also a lot
on the latest MS worm, confounding factors in medical research
(with lessons for everything else), deceptive URLs used by
scammers, filtered e-mail and more.  /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.85


#184 of 335 by lk on Sun Aug 17 18:11:17 2003:

I need a Televideo 990 or 9060 terminal (or two). If you have one sitting
around (or can swap for a Wyse) please let me know.  More details in
Classified item 1137.  Email LK@stratcom.com .


#185 of 335 by russ on Sun Aug 17 22:17:47 2003:

In the wake of 8/14, the RISKS digests are flying fast.  RISKS digest
volume 22 issue 86 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.86.


#186 of 335 by gregb on Mon Aug 18 15:04:55 2003:

Do we have to boil it first? B-)


#187 of 335 by dcat on Mon Aug 18 17:03:07 2003:

Today is my last day in Ann Arbor.


#188 of 335 by gregb on Mon Aug 18 19:26:41 2003:

Where U off to, Dcat?


#189 of 335 by dcat on Tue Aug 19 04:56:33 2003:

U of Pittsburgh, w/ orinoco


#190 of 335 by albaugh on Thu Aug 21 16:56:06 2003:

IWLTA that I saw in Ohio (must have been near Toledo) a billboard saying
"Raise the drinking age to 25."  I think it was in reference to drunk driving.
They gave a web address for more info, which I forget.  Even if it were to
become law, there are so many practical problems, and who knows if would have
any actual effect on whatever the problem is it's trying to solve.


#191 of 335 by gull on Thu Aug 21 17:22:13 2003:

My experience has been that the 21 drinking age mostly encourages guys
in the 16-20 age group to drive into corn fields and drink out of the
backs of pickup trucks, then try to drive home.


#192 of 335 by gregb on Thu Aug 21 17:24:52 2003:

"Practical problems?"  Only for those anxious to suck down some beers 
and whatnot.


#193 of 335 by goose on Thu Aug 21 18:30:47 2003:

Lower the drinking age to 16, raise the driving age to 21.  I'm actually
serious...I would support that.  I also think on your second DUI, DWI, OUIL,
whatever...you should be charged with attempted murder.


#194 of 335 by russ on Fri Aug 22 01:29:55 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 87 is in /a/r/u/rus/risks/risks-22.87


#195 of 335 by jep on Fri Aug 22 02:25:54 2003:

I think Newsweek reported this week that 3.7% of adults will have been 
convicted of felony by 2030 or thereabouts.  I've shifted left on 
another issue and cannot support the addition of more felonies for 
alcohol convictions.  Let's not make felonies the norm.


#196 of 335 by jep on Fri Aug 22 02:26:48 2003:

I would support decriminalizing the kicking to pulp of those convicted 
of DUI *misdemeanors*, though.


#197 of 335 by jmsaul on Fri Aug 22 03:24:21 2003:

Re #192:  Wrong.  It affects everyone, because it forces younger people who
          are going to drink to do it in private homes (which, unlike bars
          and restaurants, aren't staffed by people trained to shut drunk
          people down and try to take their keys, and don't charge as much
          per drink), cars, parks, and other places like that.  It also
          teaches people early to form binge drinking patterns rather than
          healthy social drinking ones.  Both of those are problems for
          society as a whole, not just for the drinkers.


#198 of 335 by jaklumen on Fri Aug 22 05:58:52 2003:

I would ask some questions, perhaps partially rhetorical: how has 
society changed over history?  And how does it vary over the world?  
In colonial America, a 15 year old was expected to drink with the men 
and hold his liquor.  But in the modern U.S., high school and college 
students have binge drinking problems.  We have strigent standards on 
alcohol content, and yet in countries abroad, the booze is stronger 
and the drinking ages are lower.  Are foreign cultures more 
circumspect about propriety in drinking and perhaps have less 
tolerance for public drunkenness?  

And what of the fact that in many of these countries, the legal 
driving age is 18?  Any correlation there?

Something to think on, perhaps discuss.  I've heard a few words on it, 
but not enough that I think I would fully understand it all.


#199 of 335 by slynne on Fri Aug 22 11:33:53 2003:

The biggest problem is that in this country, we are dependent on our 
cars. Raising the driving age would be very unpopular because it is 
really hard for folks to get around sometimes without a car. But, 16 
year olds are generally not responsible enough to handle both the 
responsibilities of driving and drinking. They are likely to drink 
alcohol and then get behind the wheel of a car. Personally, I still 
think the better solution is to lower the drinking age and to raise the 
driving age. People are less likely to hurt others while they learn to 
drink responsibly than they are to hurt others whole learning to drive 
responsibly. 


#200 of 335 by gull on Fri Aug 22 12:59:26 2003:

Re #199: I think a lot of the problem is simply that age and maturity
are only loosely correlated.  Unfortunately there's no good,
legally-respected way to measure maturity.


#201 of 335 by jep on Fri Aug 22 13:11:59 2003:

I think 16 year olds need to drive more than they need to drink.  Take 
away their cars, and in a lot of cases, you take away their jobs.


#202 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Aug 22 13:24:50 2003:

Let's continue the 'drinking and driving' discussion in item 171, set up for
that purpose.


#203 of 335 by jep on Fri Aug 22 13:33:03 2003:

Good idea.


#204 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 22 15:49:04 2003:

This response has been erased.



#205 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 22 18:55:08 2003:

This response has been erased.



#206 of 335 by jmsaul on Fri Aug 22 22:11:20 2003:

Seems reasonable to me.


#207 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 22 22:29:59 2003:

This response has been erased.



#208 of 335 by jmsaul on Fri Aug 22 22:31:23 2003:

I think he installed a trojan on computers in a lab, and snarfed people's
passwords.  Though why his prof was using lab computers is beyond me.


#209 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 22 22:36:42 2003:

This response has been erased.



#210 of 335 by scott on Fri Aug 22 23:01:49 2003:

Re 207/208:  He installed a hardware keylogger on various computers.


#211 of 335 by jules on Sat Aug 23 02:23:50 2003:

tomorrow is my birthday


#212 of 335 by jep on Sat Aug 23 02:27:21 2003:

Happy birthday, Julie!


#213 of 335 by tod on Sat Aug 23 13:05:59 2003:

This response has been erased.



#214 of 335 by happyboy on Sat Aug 23 18:58:54 2003:

harfy bipplely jules


#215 of 335 by polytarp on Mon Aug 25 19:05:57 2003:

You know, guys, I barely like reading Grex when it's just a bit there, from
like a day or whatever, but now it's like FIVE days and I'm fed up.


#216 of 335 by polytarp on Tue Aug 26 01:18:20 2003:

Me too, man.


#217 of 335 by albaugh on Wed Aug 27 16:49:44 2003:

I CANNOT VOUCH FOR THE ACCURACY, EFFECTIVENESS, OR APPROPRIATENESS OF THESE
SUGGESTIONS.  ANALYZE FOR YOURSELF, AND ACT ACCORDINGLY.


Subject: Better Safe than Sorry

After reading, forward it to someone you care about,
never hurts to be careful in this crazy world we live in.

1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body.
If you are close enough to use it, do!

2. Learned this from a tourist guide to New Orleans:
If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM.
Toss it away from you... chances are that he is more interested in your wallet
and/or purse than you and he will go for the wallet/purse. 
RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car:
Kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole 
and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you but everybody else will.
This has saved lives.

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating,
working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc.
DON'T DO THIS! The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect
opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head,
and tell you where to go.
AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:
A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car,
at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat.
B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger
door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their
vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.
C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle,
and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest
your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a
guard/policeman to walk you back out.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY.  (And better paranoid than dead.)

6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs.
(Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot).

7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN!
The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; 
And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!

8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT!
It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer,
was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies 
of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked
"for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, 
which is when he abducted his next victim.

I'd like you to forward this to all the women you know.  It may save a life.
A candle is not dimmed by lighting another candle. I was going to send this
to the ladies only, but guys, if you love your mothers, wives, sisters, 
daughters, etc., you you may want to pass it onto them, as well.

Send this to any woman you know that may need to be reminded that the world
we live in has a lot of crazies in it and it's better safe than sorry.



#218 of 335 by rcurl on Wed Aug 27 17:02:55 2003:

Why should  only women be paranoid? Suuport them by being parnoid too. Send
this to any man you know, too.


#219 of 335 by happyboy on Wed Aug 27 17:27:42 2003:

ALWAYS BE AFRAID!


#220 of 335 by tod on Wed Aug 27 21:21:15 2003:

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#221 of 335 by slynne on Thu Aug 28 01:14:23 2003:

I would rather get killed by a serial killer than live my life in fear. 
Seriously. I have had my car broken into. And I have been 
mugged...twice. I was shot once too (albeit with a pellet gun but it 
was still scary). I have had a crazy naked man run through my house. I 
still leave the back door unlocked when I am home. I dont want to let 
someone take that away from me. 


#222 of 335 by glenda on Thu Aug 28 01:19:22 2003:

I agree.  If someone tries something with me, I am going to do my damnest to
take him/her down.  I figure that anyone that does this regularly is used to
people, women in particular, to just give in that someone brash enough to
fight back is going to scare the bejesus out of them.  I refuse to just lie
down and be a victum.  They are going to have to actually work to get anything
from me.  (As the oldest and smallest of 6, I learned to fight dirty at a very
young age.)


#223 of 335 by mcnally on Thu Aug 28 04:35:50 2003:

> 3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car: Kick out the
>    back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like
>    crazy. The driver won't see you but everybody else will.  This has
>    saved lives.

  I won't claim to be some kind of locked-in-a-trunk safety expert, 
  but I've almost certainly got more experience with the situation
  than whoever wrote the list.  As far as I can tell they either
  drive a very different car than I do or else didn't even bother
  to check inside their trunk before writing this, because I can't
  think of many cars which have a hole through the frame big enough
  to wave one's arm through the taillight access.  Also, and I'm
  speaking from experience here, I think it would be quite difficult
  to contort one's body into a position suited for kicking the 
  taillights with any amount of force.  Further maneuvering within
  the trunk to allow one's arm access to the hole would also be
  complicated.  The whole suggestion is just a bizarrely complicated
  plan, especially when you consider that virtually all late model
  cars have trunk-escape safety latches..



#224 of 335 by novomit on Thu Aug 28 12:21:36 2003:

Assuming you are locked in a trunk, you have little to lose by attempting
this. 


#225 of 335 by gelinas on Thu Aug 28 13:01:28 2003:

uh, yeah, you do: wasting energy on the impossible is seldom a good idea.

The times I've looked at my taillights, they've been through-bolted; there
are screw-sized holes holding the assembly in place. Often, there has been
a backing plate protecting the contents of the trunk from snagging on the nuts
and ends of the screws.

It's dark in there.  You wouldn't be able to see where to kick, either.


#226 of 335 by gull on Thu Aug 28 13:08:16 2003:

It's far fetched, but I can see how this would work on *some* modern
cars, where the tail lights are flimsy plastic assemblies bolted through
into the trunk.  On my Honda there are large cut-outs in the sheet metal
to allow the tail light reflectors to protrude in.

On the other hand, on most cars pulling out a tail light bulb would be
easy, and if the headlights are on it would at least give you some light
in there to look for a way to release the lid.  You might as well pull
both, and hope maybe a cop will pull the guy over for an equipment
violation.


#227 of 335 by tod on Thu Aug 28 13:18:22 2003:

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#228 of 335 by rcurl on Thu Aug 28 15:44:39 2003:

What people *have* done is get out their cell phone and called 911. I
wonder why that list did not include carrying a cell phone on your
body. 


#229 of 335 by cmcgee on Thu Aug 28 15:56:37 2003:

Ann Arbor Science Festival For 5th-8th Grade Girls.

Sally Ride Science Club is sponsoring a Festival in Ann Arbor September 20th.

11:30 to 4:30 at the UofM.  Last year it was held at the EECS bui8lding on
North Campus.  Sally herself is the keynote speaker, with workshops and a
streetfair.  There are adult workshops as well.  

Registration $18 in advance, $25 at the gate, if there are spaces left.

register:
www.SallyRideFestivals.com
or
1 800 561 5161


#230 of 335 by tod on Thu Aug 28 16:15:24 2003:

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#231 of 335 by scott on Fri Aug 29 16:21:39 2003:

Probably the most useful thing, aside from a cell phone (smart kidnappers will
take it away from you) would be a little flashlight, like a Maglight Solitaire
or one of those button-cell LED lights.  Then you can at least see the inside
of the trunk while you look for things to kick loose.


#232 of 335 by rcurl on Fri Aug 29 17:39:43 2003:

The LED light I have on my keychain requires continuous pressure to light.
It might be better to have one with a switch that does not require occupying
a hand to activate. 

If you are really paranoid, you could keep a separate cell phone in the trunk.

Or (why didn't I think of this sooner) drive a station wagon......


#233 of 335 by cross on Fri Aug 29 20:34:42 2003:

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#234 of 335 by rcurl on Fri Aug 29 20:40:42 2003:

What are you  trying to do - embarrass us into dropping this thread?


#235 of 335 by cmcgee on Fri Aug 29 21:02:56 2003:

cross, you're in for a surprise.


#236 of 335 by mcnally on Fri Aug 29 21:36:48 2003:

  re #233:  I have, I have!


#237 of 335 by cross on Fri Aug 29 22:29:50 2003:

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#238 of 335 by jor on Fri Aug 29 22:46:10 2003:

        no, the embarrassment is, no trunk music yet.


#239 of 335 by tod on Fri Aug 29 23:17:34 2003:

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#240 of 335 by scott on Fri Aug 29 23:50:55 2003:

Well, I wouldn't expect anybody to realistically carry around a "trunk escape
tool" just in case they were abducted.  But a little pocket flashlight is
quite handy anyway, and knowledge is usually even easier to carry around with
you.


#241 of 335 by cross on Fri Aug 29 23:52:03 2003:

This response has been erased.



#242 of 335 by carson on Sat Aug 30 00:46:29 2003:

(I've never been forcibly kidnapped, but various friends from high school
can attest to my trunk-riding skills, word.  balee dat.)


#243 of 335 by mcnally on Sat Aug 30 01:27:42 2003:

 > (2) #233/242:    Dan Cross (cross)  Fri, Aug 29, 2003 (16:34)
 >  By a show of hands, how many grex users have ever been forcibly kidnapped
 >  and thrown in the trunk of a car by unknown villains?
 > 
 > (2) #236/242:    Mike McNally (mcnally)  Fri, Aug 29, 2003 (17:36)
 >  re #233:  I have, I have!
 > 
 > (2) #237/242:    Dan Cross (cross)  Fri, Aug 29, 2003 (18:29)
 >  No, I'm serious; has this really happened to someone?  If so, inquiring
 >  minds want to know all about it!

 I'm serious, too.  I don't know if the Ann Arbor News makes its archives
 available for free browsing (I rather doubt it) but if you were to go back
 to the last week of October, 1993, you'd find a story with the headline
 "Gunmen Rob Man, Force Him Into Trunk" describing the incident, or you can
 go to http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=223282
 to see the one of my kidnappers who still remains in prison (the others,
 Fortson and Wilson, cut plea bargains but Pryor wasn't offered any deals
 as he'd been on parole for unarmed robbery when he decided to upgrade to
 armed robbery & kidnapping.)


#244 of 335 by slynne on Sat Aug 30 03:11:55 2003:

whoa. that must have been really scary


#245 of 335 by mcnally on Sat Aug 30 05:14:08 2003:

  re #244:  
  >  whoa. that must have been really scary

  It mostly just seemed unreal at the time.  There was a definite feeling
  of "I can't believe ths is happening," even after I'd been whacked on the
  back of the head with a pistol butt..

  The way I look at it now, years after the incident, is that it really
  helps put the minor things in perspective.  Even when things aren't going
  well at all, it always helps to be able to tell myself "OK, things kind
  of suck at the moment but at least I'm not locked in the trunk of my own
  car by guys who've bragged that they are going to kill me.."  Even in the
  bleakest moments a shot of perspective like that almost never fails to
  give me a lift..

  Anyway, I might only have one evening more's experience in my car trunk
  than the people with the helpful safety suggestions but I believe I can
  still safely say that for the most part they're talking out of their ass.



#246 of 335 by jaklumen on Sat Aug 30 06:54:12 2003:

resp:232 that's how it is with LED lights, I suppose.  I don't like 
Maglight Solitaires much-- they don't light well and don't hold 
together.  I just didn't have a good experience with mine.


#247 of 335 by oval on Sat Aug 30 13:00:51 2003:

i have been held hostage in my bedroom by my housemate's schizophrenic sister
who was hiding from the cops outside my door. 



#248 of 335 by jmsaul on Sat Aug 30 13:58:50 2003:

Re #246:  Cabela's sells a keychain LED light with a metal body and a switch
          that will either do intermittent or constant on.  Very bright for
          its size, too.


#249 of 335 by tod on Sat Aug 30 19:58:42 2003:

This response has been erased.



#250 of 335 by mcnally on Sun Aug 31 01:37:29 2003:

 re #249:  
 > Who did they brag to that they were going to kidnap you?

 They had already kidnapped me; they bragged that they were going to kill me.

 > Were they mob wanna-be types?

 They were "gangsta" wannabees.  They talked a fair amount about what
 professional criminals they were and it was in that context that they
 boasted that they were going to kill me.



#251 of 335 by jep on Sun Aug 31 03:03:22 2003:

Mike, is there a flashlight in your trunk now?  Do you drive a 
trunkless vehicle such as a station wagon, SUV, minivan, van or pickup 
truck in order to avoid such an experience again?

It sounds like it was a terrifying experience, and I certainly don't 
envy you it.


#252 of 335 by mcnally on Sun Aug 31 06:21:54 2003:

  re #251:  
  > Mike, is there a flashlight in your trunk now? 

  Yes, but for more mundane reasons -- dead battery, flat tire, etc..
  I had a flashlight in my trunk the night I was kidnapped, too.
  I spent much of that evening twisted onto my back in the trunk with
  the flashlight in one hand and my tire iron in the other with the
  hope that the trunk wouldn't be opened from outside but the thought
  that if it was I intended to get in at least one good swing with the
  tire iron.  Fortunately for me it never came to that.

  > Do you drive a trunkless vehicle such as a station wagon, SUV,
  > minivan, van or pickup truck in order to avoid such an experience again?

  No.  In the first place, despite my propensity for occasional unplanned
  adventures, I consider it fantastically unlikely that anything like that
  will ever happen to me again.  In the second place, I have no way of
  knowing what the outcome would have been if I had been driving a trunkless
  vehicle that night but it seems at least as likely that I might now be dead
  for lack of a trunk to place me in than that the robbers would have decided
  not to rob me for the same reason.

  > It sounds like it was a terrifying experience, and I certainly don't
  > envy you it.

  It's absolutely not an experience I'd care to repeat -- I might easily not
  be as fortunate in the outcome second time 'round.  However, though I would
  never have guessed it ahead of time the net result on my life has been
  positive.  In the end I wound up with an interesting story to tell for the
  price of a few painful bruises, a couple of dollars plus some unimportant
  personal possessions, and possibly a bit of hearing loss.  On the plus side
  recalling the incident has often provided me with a much-needed dose of
  perspective during hard times and I don't know if I could overstate how
  effective a near-death experience can be in refocusing your attention on
  life goals and choices..

  Anyway..  far too much about me.  Doesn't anyone have any General
  Announcements they'd like to make?


#253 of 335 by carson on Sun Aug 31 12:34:23 2003:

(I'm back in Ann Arbor.)


#254 of 335 by jep on Sun Aug 31 13:07:09 2003:

Mike, it's an interesting story.  I'd seen it once before, but thanks 
for telling it again. 


#255 of 335 by glenda on Mon Sep 1 02:36:13 2003:

re 253:  and we are in the UP, Houghton as a matter of fact.  We wondered if
you where in A2 or Marquette.  We have fallen in love with the area between
Houghton and Copper Harbor and thinking about buying property up here at some
point.  I am entering this from Cyberia, a Cyber Cafe on the main drag in
Houghton.


#256 of 335 by carson on Mon Sep 1 05:15:14 2003:

(you're in Houghton AGAIN?!)

(I was in Chicago for two and a half months, but have since returned.)


#257 of 335 by naftee on Tue Sep 2 19:26:29 2003:

I was in Montreal for a week


#258 of 335 by dah on Tue Sep 2 21:56:49 2003:

Me too. 


#259 of 335 by russ on Wed Sep 3 01:57:39 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issues 88 and 89 are in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.8[89]


#260 of 335 by glenda on Wed Sep 3 02:42:41 2003:

RE #256:  Hey, I even looked into finishing my BS up there.  Unfortunately,
most of my credits from WCC don't transfer to anything useful there.  Maybe
my MS...


#261 of 335 by lynne on Wed Sep 3 20:47:13 2003:

I'm in Wyoming.  :)
Our cross-country trip has been fun so far, but the car's been a bit 
unreliable.  Noticed a flat-tire-esque thumping in Wisconsin about 25 
miles from the Minnesota border, when we stopped to check the tire was 
fine but the CV boot was cracked, requiring a three-hour stop to get 
the car towed and the axle replaced.  We were lucky at that--this was 
on Labor Day sunday and the shop originally said we'd have to wait 
till Tuesday.  Drove through Minnesota (whee!  Love 70-75 mph speed 
limits with minimal enforcement), stayed overnight just over the South 
Dakota border, then continued on to the Badlands and Mt Rushmore 
yesterday morning.  The original plan to drive to within an hour of 
Yellowstone was abandoned when the car developed a clicking noise and 
funny smell last night--the other CV boot had cracked.  We're losing 
about a day's worth of travel time for this one.  But we saw a *ton* 
of wildlife on the drive through the mountains immediately preceding 
the breakdown--at least twelve separate times Don pointed out groups 
of two or three deer on the side of the road; luckily none of them 
tried to jump out in front of the car.  We saw a fox too, which was a 
first for me.  When we were nearly through the mountains, we stopped 
at a viewpoint overlooking a valley and saw four deer grazing and then 
loping away.  Not sure I'd ever seen a deer running like that before, 
very graceful.
Today we're wandering around Worland, Wyoming, enjoying a very relaxed 
pace of life and friendly locals.  We spent a lovely hour in a pet 
shop talking with the owner and her birds, and I'm now grexing from 
the local library.  Barring major catastrophes the car will be ready 
in about three hours and we should be staying in Yellowstone tonight. 


#262 of 335 by katie on Thu Sep 4 00:39:23 2003:

 I will be doing two radio appearances this weekend: WDET 101.9FM 
(Detroit's NPR station) between noon and 3 pm ("Folks Like Us"
program) Saturday Sept 6, and WCSX 94.7FM (Detroit's "Classic Rock"
station) at 9:20 or 10:20 am (the "Over Easy" program), Sun Sept 7. I'll post
the actual times when they've been narrowed down.


#263 of 335 by jor on Thu Sep 4 02:13:29 2003:

        awesome


#264 of 335 by scott on Thu Sep 4 14:06:02 2003:

I'm back from a long weekend in California.


#265 of 335 by dah on Fri Sep 5 02:34:22 2003:

TWILA that if you think practising Christians are above petty theft, you're
wrong.


#266 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Sep 5 03:23:37 2003:

(I can't make sense of "TWILA": "To Would I Like Announce"?)


#267 of 335 by cmcgee on Fri Sep 5 11:03:41 2003:

Nah, he just wants twila's attention, so he's shouting at her.


#268 of 335 by oval on Fri Sep 5 11:49:43 2003:

heh.



#269 of 335 by anderyn on Fri Sep 5 13:32:09 2003:

I noticed a looong time ago on m-net that IWLTA is an anagram of my name, so
I announced it in general. People have been taking my name in vain ever since.


#270 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Sep 5 16:18:12 2003:

ah.  It's an m-net thing.  No wonder I didn't understand. :)


#271 of 335 by furs on Fri Sep 5 18:03:51 2003:

That's because of the high-intellegence factor on M-Net, right?


#272 of 335 by naftee on Sat Sep 6 20:22:05 2003:

re 270 Monsieur gelinas, please explain how it is an m-net thing?


#273 of 335 by slynne on Mon Sep 8 19:24:40 2003:

Yeah furs, that *must* be it! ;)


#274 of 335 by tod on Mon Sep 8 20:05:00 2003:

This response has been erased.



#275 of 335 by other on Tue Sep 9 00:31:18 2003:

I would like to announce that I have returned home, after an absence of 
one month and approximately 7,000 miles.

I visited, or rode through (in order): 
        Bar Harbor, Maine
        Montreal, Quebec
        Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
        Thunder Bay, Ontario
        Duluth, Minnesota
        Boulder, Colorado
        Austin, Texas
        Chicago, Illinois
and many other places too numerous to mention here.

It's nice to be home.


#276 of 335 by dah on Tue Sep 9 00:39:12 2003:

MONTREAL!  I WAS THERE WHEN WERE  YOU THERE!  MONTREAL FUCKING ROCKS I LOVE
MONTreal.


#277 of 335 by aruba on Tue Sep 9 03:43:15 2003:

Welcome back, Eric!  Sounds like quite a trip.


#278 of 335 by gelinas on Wed Sep 10 13:13:57 2003:

IWLTA that I saw smoke coming from Zingerman's Roadhouse this morning.
I was in a bit of hurry, so I stopped by on my home rather than on my
way out.

They had fired up the grills on the patio and were getting bread (and
pies :) delivered through the front door.  I walked around a bit and then
stopped by the patio, where one of the chefs and a couple of other staff
members were talking.  One asked the chef something like, "How long will
it take?" "Ten to twelve hours," was the reply.  So I asked when they
were opening:  Some time early next week.  They are just practicing today.
(So what's going to happen to the pig that was on the grill and all those
baked goods?  I should have asked if I could practice eating there. :)


#279 of 335 by flem on Wed Sep 10 14:09:27 2003:

w00t!  :)


#280 of 335 by i on Thu Sep 11 00:22:00 2003:

My guess is that Zing'house will give away their "just practicing" to a
variety of local businesses (future lunch-time customers) and to Food
Gatherers.


#281 of 335 by russ on Thu Sep 11 00:32:25 2003:

RISKS digest volume 22 issue 90 is in /a/r/u/russ/risks/risks-22.90


#282 of 335 by other on Thu Sep 11 03:03:45 2003:

The Roadhouse opens to the public on Monday.


#283 of 335 by gelinas on Thu Sep 11 03:44:18 2003:

Cool.  Thanks, other. :)

(I wonder if future board meetings could move to the west side of town. ;)


#284 of 335 by mary on Thu Sep 11 12:43:24 2003:

The Observer's article on Zing's Roadhouse has it sounding quite different
from the usual setup.  One dining room has all long tables, where you'll
plop down anywhere and dine with strangers, unless you bring your own
crowd.

This could be good or bad depending on the person or family
joining you.  So lunch gets exciting. ;-)


#285 of 335 by scott on Thu Sep 11 12:51:16 2003:

Back when Earthen Jar had one (1) table it worked that way, and was kind of
fun.


#286 of 335 by gull on Thu Sep 11 13:34:21 2003:

Doesn't sound too bad.  I like to sit at the counter when I eat at cafes.


#287 of 335 by dcat on Thu Sep 11 20:34:45 2003:

I may almost be back (to Grex).  Still no network connection from my dorm 
room, but I'm discovering and making more use of campus labs. . . .


#288 of 335 by jmsaul on Fri Sep 12 12:38:28 2003:

They were doing a test run for employees and others last night, I think.


#289 of 335 by gelinas on Fri Sep 12 13:56:45 2003:

There were folks in the place on Wednesday night, too.  


#290 of 335 by albaugh on Fri Sep 12 17:43:31 2003:

Heard on the radio that Johnny Cash and John Ritter died.


#291 of 335 by edina on Fri Sep 12 18:45:01 2003:

This is so sad.  At least John is now with June.


#292 of 335 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 18:53:07 2003:

it's not sad AT ALL.  jesus, his body had become totally
decrepit, he could no longer play guitar...i'm relieved
for him.


#293 of 335 by edina on Fri Sep 12 18:58:32 2003:

I know, I know, and ever since June died, I wondered how long Johnny had left.
But it's losing an icon.  


#294 of 335 by happyboy on Fri Sep 12 19:12:16 2003:

he wouldn't be much of an icon drooling in a hospital bed
in a state of vegetation, now, would he?


#295 of 335 by other on Mon Sep 15 23:10:05 2003:

I have a pair of announcements, one of which is quite sad, the other 
amusing.  The really odd part is that both were communicated to me in 
phone calls, one right after the other, this afternoon.

1) Steve Graham, former acting Chief Engineer at WUOM, the NPR affiliate 
in Ann Arbor, and more recently the computer systems and support person 
there, died by his own hand this weekend.  I had spoken at some length 
with him only a couple of days before, and had no indication or clue.

2) The ACLU of Michigan is producing a booklet about recent cases in 
which they've been involved and because they so liked the quote I sent in 
response to their request, they've asked for a picture to accompany it.  
I sent them the one that prompted someone on Grex to post an item 
suggesting I looked like a serial killer (the one with all the little 
captions on it), and they like it, but would prefer to not have the 
captions.  I can't find a decent one, so a photographer friend is going 
to shoot something this evening.


#296 of 335 by mary on Mon Sep 15 23:18:11 2003:

Great, because the Secret Service agent who was just here,
asking about you, wanted an up-to-date photo.  Post the
URL when you've got it up, okay?


#297 of 335 by other on Mon Sep 15 23:19:45 2003:

Well, the one I sent is the one on munkey's old grexer site....
The most up-to-date shots are on my website, from the trip from which I 
just returned.


#298 of 335 by mynxcat on Mon Sep 15 23:39:28 2003:

The picture you describe is on munkey's new web-site too. It's under
lifestyles, I think


#299 of 335 by other on Mon Sep 15 23:58:30 2003:

Wall, shucks, ther shore iiis!  Thanks!


#300 of 335 by goose on Tue Sep 16 02:36:13 2003:

Your first bit of news is really horrible Eric, I'm very sorry to hear it.
Steve was a former Grex user (maybe M-Net, I forget the timeframe).
I knew Steve a bit and bought some audio equipment from him a few years ago.
He had extremely talented ears and was a very nice guy willing to share his
vast knowlege in the audio field.  He was responsible for the tone of WUOM
and to my ears is one of the best sounding FM stations out there, mostly due
to his hard work.  


#301 of 335 by other on Tue Sep 16 02:50:24 2003:

I once called up and asked him for a notch filter because I lived too 
close to the WQKL tower to be able to get WUOM on my radio, and he dug 
one out of his desk and sent it to me by campus mail.  When I saw him 
late last week, I mentioned that I guess I should give it back in case 
someone else needed it...  :(


#302 of 335 by tsty on Tue Sep 16 04:26:19 2003:

if true, this is 2nd engr to pass on this way ...
... *recently**...


#303 of 335 by tsty on Tue Sep 16 04:42:04 2003:

the other  eWUOM engineer i knew (who got a royal screwing
from the "establishment") was James Paffenbarger.   
  
this makes two in a row. wazup wid dat? 
  
i'd mention a too-much-influence naem of a person probably
responsible but the ppl's republic would react with
too much shock and awe .... those closet bushies.


#304 of 335 by tod on Tue Sep 16 05:01:48 2003:

This response has been erased.



#305 of 335 by dah on Tue Sep 16 11:22:19 2003:

You know, leading Scientists say that people who talk to people soon to commit
suicide, and "don't get [no] clues" are usually wrong.  They did get clues
and just didn't pay enough attention to the PSTCS.


#306 of 335 by cmcgee on Tue Sep 16 11:41:11 2003:

hogwash.


#307 of 335 by johnnie on Tue Sep 16 14:42:18 2003:

Well, there are clues, but nothing so obvious that you're going to pick 
it up in a ten-minute conversation.  And even if you're around the 
potential suicide on a regular basis, the clues may be too subtle to 
understand except *maybe* in retrospect.  


#308 of 335 by aruba on Tue Sep 16 15:00:43 2003:

Yeah, dah's post is bullshit.  There is no way to read someone's mind.  The
kind of clues he's talking about are probably about as accurate a predicter
of the future as the daily horoscope.


#309 of 335 by rcurl on Tue Sep 16 15:05:30 2003:

Would you please identify a couple of the leading Scientists you cite in
#305, dah?

I'm inclined to think johnnie and aruba are right. There are probably
more instances of the same kind of clues from people that do not commit
suicide. 


#310 of 335 by cmcgee on Tue Sep 16 16:59:45 2003:

If "clues" could tell you who was or was not going to commit suicide, no one
under the care of a therapist would ever do so.  Their therapist would see
the "clues" and take appropriate steps.  

One of the few remaining ways to have someone committed to a mental facility
is if they are a threat to themselves.  It is still illegal to commit suicide
in Michigan, and anyone who knows that someone is going to attempt it is
legally required to report this to the police.  If "clues" were really
diagnostic, there'd be a lot fewer suicides.
 


#311 of 335 by tod on Tue Sep 16 17:02:41 2003:

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#312 of 335 by dah on Tue Sep 16 21:38:40 2003:

307: If you pay attention to people, which I and others do, you can often
grasp much more beyon what's directly said.

309: I heard it on the radio and don't remember the names.

310: Not all therapists pay enough attention to their patients.  As well,
they're just clues; they're, you're right, not diagnostic; and that's, of
course, conmbined with the limited steps a therapist can take to prevent
suicide based simply on apparently lack evidence.


#313 of 335 by mary on Tue Sep 16 22:03:02 2003:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MICHAEL!
      -A Fan


#314 of 335 by albaugh on Wed Sep 17 03:37:10 2003:

IWLTA that the Detroit Shock, the local WNBA team, beat LA in the deciding
game 3 at the Palace to become champs of 2003.  This represented a complete
turnaround from worst team in the league last year to first this year.

In a bit of "history repeating", the Shock's coach Bill Laimbeer, once of
Piston fame, on a team that kept the LA Lakers from 3-peating, defeated LA
Sparks coach Michael Cooper, of that very Lakers team, thus keeping the Sparks
from 3-peating.


#315 of 335 by lynne on Wed Sep 17 14:37:32 2003:

re 312:  Yeah.  How many attempted suicides have you prevented then?  And 
while you're at it, proofread your comments before posting.
re 313:  Who's Michael?


#316 of 335 by dah on Wed Sep 17 15:25:04 2003:

I've never had anyone with whom I've interacted commit suicide.


#317 of 335 by mynxcat on Wed Sep 17 15:28:13 2003:

I have. But that was a cpl of years before he actualyl did commit suicide.


#318 of 335 by remmers on Wed Sep 17 16:46:58 2003:

Re #315 re #313:  Michael Delizia (md) presumably.


#319 of 335 by anderyn on Wed Sep 17 18:32:59 2003:

I have, and while I could see that they were depressed, I would never have
thought they would commit suicide. The people who WERE worried about that did
talk to the person about it, and were assured that it was not going to happen,
several times (including that person's best friend, husband, and therapist).
I talked to the person on the day they committed suicide and I'll swear that
they sounded tired, but not any different than any other day -- so you can
imagine I've combed my thoughts a thousand times to see if there was any way
I could have heard it... because I would have done anything I could to have
stopped it, if I'd known.


#320 of 335 by slynne on Thu Sep 18 00:51:03 2003:

re suicide. Even if you can see it coming, you cant always prevent it. 


#321 of 335 by mcnally on Sat Sep 20 08:21:31 2003:

  I would like to announce that I've arrived safely back in Alaska after
  spending the last 10 days in a 26 foot boat travelling from Ketchikan
  down to Anacortes, Washington.

  I had a fantastic time and if I ever get caught up everything else I've
  been meaning to take care of I'll post an edited version of my trip log
  as an item in fall Agora.


#322 of 335 by slynne on Sat Sep 20 09:18:35 2003:

Oh wow. That sounds like a really fun thing to do. 


#323 of 335 by goose on Sat Sep 20 19:38:13 2003:

I'd love to hear about the trip Mike.


#324 of 335 by mcnally on Sun Sep 21 02:10:42 2003:

  I'll definitely post something when I've had a chance to sort out my
  impressions into something coherent.


#325 of 335 by tod on Sun Sep 21 14:00:37 2003:

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#326 of 335 by tsty on Sun Sep 21 16:47:31 2003:

mcnally floats his boat ... and has fun doing it- --kewl4u


#327 of 335 by mcnally on Sun Sep 21 19:10:20 2003:

  re #325:  We pulled into Cap Sante Harbor and apart from the time I
  spent securing a rental car to take me to SeaTac and stopping for a 
  snack on the way out of town that was about all I saw of Anacortes.
  I should probably go back next time I'm in Puget Sound for a while,
  though, as it appeared to be a neat little town.  I don't think I've
  been there before except to catch the Anacortes -> Port Sidney ferry
  and you don't really go into town to get to the ferry terminal.

  On the way back it was nice to have a car and a free day down in
  Seattle; I got to run around and pick up some things that aren't
  easy to find up here in the islands of SE Alaska.


#328 of 335 by tod on Mon Sep 22 03:01:45 2003:

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#329 of 335 by mcnally on Mon Sep 22 07:29:31 2003:

  
 > I was going to say that one thing you could have done instead of renting
 > a car is taken one of those Kenmore Seaplanes down to Lake Washington. 
 > Then you could bus down to SeaTac.  
  
 A seaplane would've been fun but not practical for what I wanted, which was
 to have some transportation to get around Seattle while I was in the area.
 The simplest (and definitely cheapest) way to get back would have just been
 to take the airport shuttle straight from Anacortes to SeaTac.

 > What sort of supplies did you grab that aren't local in SE AK?
  
 Some clothes (maybe not literally unavailable in Ketchikan, but in my size,
 at least, much easier to find in Seattle), some electronics (replacement
 power adaptor for my Mac laptop, for example), and some frozen specialty
 foods (including a much-treasured pile of frozen deep-dish pizzas from
 Delfino's in U Village) for when I just have to have something tastier than
 what's available from the local restaurants..

 Though this isn't necessarily true of smaller towns in the area, it's pretty
 easy in Ketchikan to get more or less anything you really *need*.  If I may
 have initially found the retail offerings in Ketchikan lacking then my visit
 to Klemtu, BC, provided a healthy dose of perspective..


#330 of 335 by tod on Mon Sep 22 15:23:08 2003:

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#331 of 335 by tpryan on Mon Sep 22 17:59:12 2003:

        Did fall start early today, or is that tommorrow?


#332 of 335 by gelinas on Mon Sep 22 18:12:48 2003:

Tomorrow, or Friday.


#333 of 335 by johnnie on Wed Sep 24 00:47:11 2003:

Today--6:47am


#334 of 335 by appocc on Wed Oct 1 22:10:02 2003:

hey guys... i wanna enter the matrix::: how can i go there????? i need to know
the truth quick
my mail is appocc@cyberspace.org



#335 of 335 by gull on Thu Oct 2 18:36:56 2003:

A friend of mine has a Toyota Matrix.  If you want to enter it I'm sure
something could be arranged.


You have several choices: