71 new of 122 responses total.
I thought we were talking about being stranded on an island. If we were, then I think wiping the old bum in the ocean is preferred to wasting paper. Now we're talking about a forest?
If you're stranded on an island in southeast Alaska, you're stranded in the forest. Because except for the water, the beaches, and mountain peaks above the treeline it's ALL forest here. Every island that's high enough above the water to be dry at high tide has trees on it, usually quite densely spaced and trees in southeast Alaska grow in the damnedest places, including half sideways off of cliffs so steep you wonder that any seeds could ever land on them. Travel overland is difficult because of the denseness of the forest and the rugged terrain and the inhospitability of some of the predominant vegetation in the undergrowth (I'm looking at YOU, Devil's Club..) If you really were stranded on an island in SE Alaska your best bet would be to dip into the forest to look for potable water and edible plants but otherwise you're better off remaining as close to the beach as you can -- assuming there *is* any beach (in plenty of places the forest runs right up to the tide line and the shore below that is a rock wall.) On the beach you can find shellfish, crabs, several varieties of edible seaweed, and you have the opportunity to catch fish. It's also where you are most likely to find good fuel for a fire if there is driftwood that has washed up above the tideline. Not to mention nobody will ever find you in the forest unless they pass within 20-30 feet of you.. If you want to be spotted, stay on the beach.
Sport water bottle. Create your own Bidet..
Let's not forget that, in this exercise, you're not in a "real" survival situation and you're with a bunch of your peers who you will continue to know for the rest of your lives, and you're at an age where peer interactions and approval are vitally important to you. That means there are certain things that you would do in a real survival situation that you'd never consider here. If you come back from the trip having survived but being awarded a nickname like "enema boy" you can hardly call that a success.
Not to mention that hypothermia can be a real consideration. Water temperatures near freezing just to clean the dingleberries off my crack? No thanks.
You don't need a bidet, just a bit of water and your left hand, which you then wash. I lived one place for a few months (until late Nov) where the privy had a bottle of water in it for cleaning with. It seems unlikely that the kids would use the 'facilities' as a group rather than privately.
There's still the issue of hypothermia.
re: packing the can... anything you put in there, you'll have to take out and then probably put back in again, unless you're planning to find a location and stay close to it for the 3 day trip. I wouldn't pack it too tightly, or I would pack it into compartments or separate bags. Both, most likely. A 1 lb coffee can holds a fair amount of stuff. I'd take: wooden matches a few small candles (such as birthday candles) fishing line, hooks, sinkers and bobbers a poncho two pocket knives (in case I lose one) a metal cup a set of camping silverware (fork, knife, spoon) several yards of aluminum foil, folded up salt and pepper tabasco sauce a flashlight and some extra batteries a couple of small notepads and a couple of pens a compass some rice some oatmeal some candy bars extra socks deck of cards a spool of wire iPod (heck of a way to take a good supply of music) insect repellent water purification tablets *Everything* would be in ziplock bags unless it's inherently waterproof. Essential items like matches would be found in more than one bag. NOTE: I benefitted from some of the items listed by others.
This sounds like a good exercise for teaching essential survival skills. I'm surprised that acompass took so long to show up; I'd give up my iPod to have one with me (though a nano or shuffle might not be a bad use of space; a good way to stay connected to the outside world while I wait for a ship to come rescue me). I'd take a leatherman, about 50 feet of 550 cord, maybe some 100MPH tape, a poncho, some powerbars, a zippo and some flint/magnesium strips, some ziplock bags and that would probably be about it. Maybe some toilet paper, a pen, and something to write in. Oh, some extra socks and some foot powder, and maybe a pair of cuticle scissors. I strikes me that putting this stuff into a coffee can isn't very convenient. I understand the need for a small kit (otherwise, what's the point of the exercise?), but it seems like a small bag would be more practical.
If you're stranded on an relatively small island waiting for rescue, what's the use of a compass? Unfortunately an iPod doesn't include a radio, so the degree to which it allows you to stay connected to the outside world is iffy. An AM/FM (and maybe other bands) receiver might do better and is even smaller. Better still would be a hand-held marine VHF transciever and an EPIRB, but I guess that violates the spirit of the exercise.
the nice thing about the can is it can be used to make a couple of useful items such as a pot or a stove. actually it might be nice to put several stackable cans together. survival blanket (can be used as a drop cloth under the sleeping bag, or a reflector for the fire, a signaling device to get attention, or as a survival blanket. candles, not cake candles, but rather a heavy wax candle. matches in a waterproof container. firestarting kit (flint and steel, chard rag, wax soaked string) light twine bullion cubes tea bags tin cup Condoms (non lubricated, can be used to carry water or waterproof other items) leatherman tool Small Mirror fishing line and hooks small notebook and pencil everything in ziploc bags
Here is what my kit would be: - water purification tablets - magnesium fire starter - lifeboat matches - fishing line - fishing hooks - glock knife - signal mirror - large tube of triple antibiotic ointment - mechanical flashlight of some type - couple space blankets - glock entrenching tool (if there is enough space left)
Regarding #61; Well, I guess I don't really know how small these islands are, to be honest. If it's really really small then yes, you're right: there's little point in bringing a compass. But, if it's not so small, it would be a good thing to have.
(Note that, even on a very small island, this can be useful as if the undergrowth is particularly dense, it can be difficult to tell which direction one is going in).
Regarding island size: some of the islands around here are no more than a few feet across when the tide is high. I doubt they'd be selected as sites to leave students. Other islands are available in pretty much any size range from acres to square miles to hundreds of square miles. The island Ketchikan is on, which apart from Ketchikan is essentially uninhabited, is approximately the size of the entire state of Rhode Island. Some of the islands are flat and swampy, some of them are steep and solid. Betton Island, which is a likely place for one of more groups to be deposited (within a mile or two of the road system on the north end and only 1/2 mile away from two marinas) is about 4 miles long and 2 wide, but it has a 1500 foot high peak and 600-foot sea cliffs on one side. Then again this exercise may stick to some of the smaller islands. There are wolves on Betton, and probably bears. Anyway, the kids get back today and I haven't heard anything about fatalities, so I presume they're all accounted for. They were fortunate to get very good weather for this time of year -- three days of sunshine with only occasional rain showers, though Wednesday's showers were a little on the heavy side..
re #55 Let's not forget that, in this exercise, you're not in a "real" survival situation and you're with a bunch of your peers who you will continue to know for the rest of your lives, and you're at an age where peer interactions and approval are vitally important to you. Ok, then. I'll skip the minimalist rambo rig and say I'd probably take a waterproof faraday flashlight, some waxcoated matchsticks, waterproof bag of oatmeal, some vitamins, salt, tobasco sauce, garlic powder, fork & knife, tinfoil, twine, ivory soap, fish hooks and line, entrenching tool, and some kind of thin tarpaulin.
Vitamins for one day? Nobody has mentioned a small trowel to dig a pit toilet. Or a small folding saw to cut dead branches off trees. How are the mosquitoes there?
Some of us mentioned entrenching tools, of which the Glock one contains a saw for cutting branches.
So does my leatherman. Regarding #68; You continue to miss the point that the discussion has moved beyond one day only.
re #68: this time of year the mosquitoes and flies are not a problem. later in the season I would definitely include insect repellent.
I listed insect repellent. I would take it even if I didn't expect to use it. I've never seen a shovel small enough to put in a 1 lb coffee can.
resp:72 I have seen folding shovels that would fit in a coffee can.
Plastic orange trowel, designed for camping.
If I attempted a list at this point, I'd be mostly cribbing it from previous lists, so what's the point? But a few thoughts: I'd capitalize on the "the clothes on your back" option by having a lot of clothes on my back. Besides the obvious collection of isolating layers, I'd probably include a waterproof heavy-duty rain poncho, which is pretty mediocre raingear, but has the advantage of doubling as a tarp or groundcloth. Belt would be one of those nylon strap things, which is actually the only kind of belt I ever wear. I've found them useful for strapping down all sorts of things, or as carrying straps. A good hat is also not to be undervalued. Probably something floppy and waterproof. If I was really going to be alone, and not have a teacher handy to ship me out if things go wrong, then top priority after warm clothes would be first aide supplies. Lots of people have been wise in packing at least one small luxory item. It's amazing what a difference that can make. If I were alone, I think I'd go for a paperback book and enough rope so that I can convert that rain poncho into a hammock. These islands sound like they are going to be sorely lacking in comfortable places to sit or lie down. A hammock between two trees near a south shore sounds like a nice place to read a good book. If I'm with a group something more social may make sense.
A hammock is a pretty good idea, actually, if you can tolerate the netting ones that are small enough to pack into the coffee can (they've never done much for me.) It's very difficult to find a level dry spot to lay down -- spots that are level are rarely dry, and spots that are dry are rarely level.
A hammock is the type of thing that can be easily improvised using sufficient lengths of, e.g., 550 cord.
A banana hammock?
Btw: this entire thread reminds me that now, in NYC, we residents are encouraged to have a `go bag' accessible at all times. The focus here is unexpected evacuations as a result of terrorist attacks and natural disasters; imagine if you have to walk to Philadelphia (about 100 miles South and a little West). What would you take?
Regarding #78; Oh, I didn't know your mom was going to be there....
re #80 Yea, she wants to see your mom practicing to be a "go bag"
> if you have to walk to Philadelphia (about 100 miles South and a > little West). What would you take? Well, if I needed to evacuate, and could not drive.... - All of the stuff I would have put in my coffee can. - A tent. - A DVD containing scanned copies of my important documents; house deed, car titles, social security cards, etc. - Glock pistol with spare magazines. - A crank-powered AM/FM radio - Extra pair of tennis shoes
Map to Mormons' houses and a sawed off
"go bags" are actually a good idea for everyone. I keep meaning to get one together to keep outside in my locked shed. Not so much because of fear of a terrorist attack but because of a fear of the more likely event that my house catches on fire in the middle of the night. What if you had to run out of *your* house in the middle of winter in your pajamas? I plan to put in my bag: extra pair of shoes old sweatpants and and old sweater or something a dog leash spare key for my car $20 in cash
I have one of those keychain LED flashlights in my pj pocket when I sleep. And the money, keys, etc are all within grabbing reach. The important schtuff is in a firesafe or deposit box. I keep emergency supplies at home, in the vehicle, and at work for various reasons, too. I wouldn't call it a "go bag" though since I'm not on a CERT team (though I've done the training.) If there's a disaster of some sort, I'll probably have to work so the supplies would need to hold me for about 3 to 7 days. All my coworkers have a kit under their desk, too.
If I had to run out of MY house in the middle of winter I would be wearing a sweater, wool socks and a hat already. And I could go to the neighbor's house. When my neighbor in the same house accidentally disconnected her gas line and came pounding on the door to warn us the house might explode (the fire engine came to rescue us) we stood out in the rain for a few minutes then went to a neighbor's. Not that much excitement very often, other than the neighbor who used to try to kill herself and the one who had drug interactions for which 911 was called three times in a year.
Did the fire engine use petroleum products?
No, this one ran on distilled water.
How Back to the Future of it.
Nononono, this sucker is electrical. I just need a nuclear reaction to generate the one point twenty one gigawatts of electricity needed to power the flux capacitor.
Most of my go bag is in the trunk of the car. I think everyone needs to have emergency supplies easy at hand in case they need to evacuate for any reason
I could make coffee, come morning, so life will go on.
Well, after checking my backpack (which had been recently emptied on account of use as a carry-on for recent emergency airline travel) to make sure I'd restored my usual hiking kit (firestarter, flashlight, compass, plastic bags, pocketknife, and a few other things) I set out this afternoon on a hike for Perserverance Lake, usually about a six mile round trip. When I reached the lake, though, after sitting and admiring it for a bit while I had a drink from my water bottle and a bagel I'd stashed away for a snack, I felt like continuing, so I continued along a portion of the Minerva Trail that I had never walked before. (I should mention that due to the fact that Ketchikan is on an island, it's kind of a rare treat to hike a developed trail that I haven't done before..) I had a great time, and returned to the car about 5 hours later than I'd started (which included 8 or 9 miles of roundtrip hiking, plus a spell of sitting by the lake snacking, plus just a lot of looking- around time..) Spring is firmly established in the lowlands where I started my hike, but not yet begun in the alpine meadow where I turned around because there was too much snow on the trail to continue, so I got pretty much the full seasonal spectrum. Most of the summer wildflowers aren't out yet, but there was a lot going on in the muskegs (very wet boggy areas with small, waterlogged, stunted trees, and mostly open stretches of grass and/or moss.) I saw lots of white marsh marigold, labrador tea, and bog laurel, and many other plants that I have not yet learned to identify. Devil's club was just starting to leaf out and not yet in bloom, but salmonberry blossoms were past their prime. The huckleberry bushes seem to be completely done blossoming in most places but are not yet showing signs of producing fruit, but berry season isn't for another month or two. I heard, but didn't see, loons on Perserverance Lake, where I haven't heard them before, and spotted (but could not identify) a couple of woodpecker-like birds in the upland forest that I've never seen in this area before. Anyway, not a bad way to spend Memorial Day..
That sounds really nice. And an 8-9 mile hike is pretty impressive especially when one considers that it wasnt a flat 8-9 miles. Was the trail very steep? I have found that I am usually ok going up steeper trails (except that I get a little out of breathe) but have trouble going down them.
you should get hiking poles. They are actually great for your arms and help take some pressure off your legs and help you feel stable. Anyway, I love mine.
Sounds good, yep. And yes, poles can be handy, although if you hike enough you may find that your legs get stronger and you no longer need them. I wish it were possible to climb a mountain twice rather than go up and then down -- down is just so much harder on you.
That is an excellent idea, furs! I havent thought about those for years.
We went hiking in Lyon Canyon Park this weekend but poles weren't really something I'd want to lug along. I think the idea to make it fun is to descent on a different path..preferably the shadier/cooler one ;)
re #95: I have a spring-loaded hiking pole (made by Comperdell, I think) that I used to use when I hiked in the Cascades when I was living in the Seattle area. I agree that on some trails having the extra shock-absorbtion from the pole was a big plus, especially on the downhill. It was also useful when crossing streams or picking my way across talus slopes where an extra balance point was really handy. I almost never bring it when hiking around Ketchikan, though, because many of the local trails have long sections of boardwalk and/or steps. The poles work well on a traditional dirt or gravel trail, but on boardwalk they're pretty useless. And the boardwalks are pretty necessary around here unless you're OK with the possibility of falling into a bottomless pocket of muskeg. re #94: The trail is moderately steep up to the lake -- about 500 feet of climb, most of it in the middle mile of the three mile trail. After the lake the climb becomes significantly steeper. The climb up to the lake, and most of the climb beyond the lake, are stairs. I find that easier on the way up, but more jarring on the way down. However, the steps above the lake seem to be sized and spaced pretty well -- they weren't bad at all coming down (except for the spot where I slipped on a patch of black mold (which has the unpleasant property of making wood almost frictionless, or so it seems when hiking..))
lynne, you are welcome to take mine for a spin if you want, that way you can try them out before getting your own.
Thanks Jeanne! Maybe next time I come over, we can go for a short walk or something
Who put in all the stairs and boardwalks?
The US Forest Service. In addition to forest management, part of their instutional mandate is to provide recreation opportunities on some of their lands and this trail is one example of that mission.
I'll bet that a fair amount of the work was done by volunteers. The USFS isn't known for being adequately funded, and trail work often isn't exactly considered a priority. Maybe it's different in Alaksa, where USFS funding might be regarded as an important form of pork.
AlAksa? isn't that a mosque? Pork would probably be unwelcome.. :-p I'll ask sometime about who does the work, but I'm pretty sure it's not mostly done by volunteers. Even if the trail construction itself is done by volunteers that's only a portion of the work required. Getting lumber and gravel and tar paper and nails and tools where they're needed is quite an undertaking around here. Try to imagine not just hauling yourself and your own equipment four miles into the woods and up a climb equivalent to a hundred-story building, but also bringing in enough material to build a mile worth of boardwalk. Usually they're dropped off by helicopter if there's a clear space close enough to the trail route. As you might guess, there are not all that many trails of this construction quality near Ketchikan.
Yeah, my impression is that volunteers mostly do things like re-grading, fixing drainage issues, or trimming encroaching foliage rather than the "big" work.
After a bit of research, I've decided the woodpecker-like birds I mentioned in #93 were red breasted sapsuckers. I often saw the yellow bellied sapsuckers in Michigan but wasn't familiar with the red breasted variety, which are mostly a west coast bird. I'm not sure why I haven't seen them around here before; perhaps they favor certain parts of the forest.
I'm tired tonight (and it's only afternoon!) after a high-energy
short-duration visit from my sister Cathy, who was on her way back
to the lower 48 after visiting Juneau for three days to celebrate
with several friends who were receiving promotions and one who was
getting married.
Here's what a whirlwind visit from my sister looks like:
6:30 AM -- wake up, shower, dress, load my day pack.
7:20 AM -- pick Cathy up from Revilla-side airport ferry terminal.
7:25 AM -- stop at Safeway for breakfast (bagels) and lunch
(sandwiches to go.)
7:45 AM -- arrive at marina, greet friend who happens to be in
parking lot, proceed to boat.
7:50 AM -- start engine warming up, load gear, check boat over.
8:00 AM -- cast off lines, leave marina, headed towards fuel dock
8:30 AM -- finish fueling, set out for destination.
9:30 AM -- arrive at float pier at head of Naha River. load food
and spare clothing into backpack, then set out on trail.
11:00 AM -- arrive at bear observation lookout over waterfall
(no bears -- it's too early in season for salmon to be that
far up the rivers, but the river was gorgeous) eat lunch.
11:20 AM -- begin return hike
12:45 PM -- return to boat
1:30 PM -- return to marina
1:50 PM -- arrive at house, shower, change
2:05 PM -- leave house headed for downtown.
2:10 PM -- shop for smoked salmon for Cathy to give as gifts to
people she knows in New England
2:45 PM -- depart for airport ferry terminal
3:08 PM -- say goodbye at the top of the ramp before boarding 3:15
airport ferry.
In a little bit less than 8 hours we crammed in breakfast, lunch,
5 miles of hiking, 60 miles of boating, visits with three people
who stopped in the street to say "Hi" to Cathy and two who wanted
to talk to me, a visit to my house and tour of the renovations,
a shower and change of clothes, and about an hour of gift shopping,
and then got her back to the airport in time to catch her flight.
I'm beat!
But it was a nice way to spend the day.. It didn't hurt that the
water was calm (great boating..) and instead of showers and 40%
chance of solid rain (which was the prediction) we got 74 degrees (F)
and sunny instead. The hike along the Naha River is always pretty
remarkable, but today was particularly lovely -- something about
the light, I think, though it could have been partly due to good mood
as well.. Unquestionably it was one of the best days I've had so far
this year (though as 2007 has been a pretty grim year so far, that's
not saying an awful lot..)
Wow, it tires me out just reading all this! :-) Seriously, though, it sounds like an awesome day!
At the moment I'm sitting at my window watching the trees bend and sway as a new weather system blows in, bringing wind and rain. A few seconds ago a pair of large birds -- a raven chasing an eagle -- flew by my window and disappeared from sight, last seen headed over the house. I'm sure there's a story there, though I'm not sure what. The two species are often at odds with one another. They compete for food and in other ways and in my experience the ravens usually have the last laugh (and they do often seem to be laughing..) At first glance the eagles would seem to be the more formidable of the two, thanks to size and strength and sharp beak and talons. But the ravens prevail (usually) through craftiness and agility, and I love watching them get the best of the conceited, (comparatively) clumsy eagles. Although it's June I've just turned the heat on (for the first time in several weeks) because I'm still chilled, despite a recent hot shower and warm dinner, from being soaked by the cold rain that was blowing in when I was trying to get the boat cleaned and put away after today's earlier fishing expedition. I took two friends from work and one of the friends' friends (visiting from out of town) fishing for the penultimate day of the annual king salmon derby (wherein anglers compete to see who can catch the largest king salmon.) Our largest fish, alas, was a respectable (but nowhere near derby-winning) 25+ lb king. Warren (one of the work friends) filleted the big king for Dale, a different co-worker (not present) who's moving away from Ketchikan and who has expressed a desire for some salmon to take with him. So 20 or so pounds of king salmon fillets will be our parting gift to Dale. The rest of the fish (one smaller king salmon, one silver salmon, and a good-sized ling cod) we distributed among us according to preference and appetite. As I've noted above, I'm a bit tired and cold and plan to sign off soon and maybe read for an hour or two before turning in to bed early. I wouldn't care to bet on it right now, but the forecasters say tomorrow should be partly clear and mostly dry, so I've got a hike planned for late morning/early afternoon if the predicted weather materializes. I'll be tired on Monday, but summer weekends around here aren't something I care to miss..
Mike, every time I watch "The Deadliest Catch", I think of you. Not because I think you're a crab fisherman in the Bering Sea, but because you get to see a lot of beautiful nature shots when they are in port and I know you see things like that daily.
I have some friends who just got back from an Alaska cruise. They had lots of nice photos. It is a beautiful place to be sure!
Hey - me too! My friends had their honeymoon in Alaska.
we're considering that as a trip next year.
Well, if you go, let me know and maybe I can go with you (unless you were planning for a romantic thing or something)
Well, if any Grexers wind up passing through Ketchikan (and if you're visiting Alaska on a cruise there's a very high probability you will..) contact me ahead of time for advice and possibly a meet-up. re #111: The terrain here is very different than the areas you're probably seeing on "The Deadliest Catch" and the waters around here are considerably safer (not *safe*, but *safer*) but there are probably some similarities. Of course Dutch Harbor is about 1400 miles from Ketchikan (or about the same distance as Ann Arbor is from, oh, say Bozeman, Montana.) Distances in Alaska are on a scale that takes some getting used to..
So you don't sit around bars, chain smoking and discussing your latest opilio crab haul? I'm so disappointed....
No, but if you walked into a bar around here you might find people talking about "The Deadliest Catch". Is that a little too "meta"? You'll find plenty of fishing talk in Ketchikan bars. If you wander into whatever bar the commercial trollers and seiners frequent you'll probably get a fair amount of conversation about their catch, too. But for the most part they won't be talking about crab.
re 115 that would be fun!!!! We just wouldn't allow you to sleep with us. ;)
resp:119 OH well, never mind then ;) Seriously though, that wouldnt be an issue. I figure I'll either just get a cabin to myself or else I'll find someone to share with me.
mcnally .. re #108 and 110 ... i hope your $$$ pursuits are sufficnet
to keep haveing cays like those two respones ...
it is resonses lie that that create the yearning in us for other places.
and you have found such a place - kewl 4U.
/dries eyes
[Since Alaska is sometimes a vacation/travel destination, this item has been linked to the travel conference as item 74; it's also item 22 in the spring agora conf. 2007.]
You have several choices: