Grex Sexuality Conference

Item 32: Slutty Phases

Entered by viper2 on Thu May 16 17:33:40 2002:

97 new of 129 responses total.


#33 of 129 by jazz on Wed May 22 22:26:33 2002:

        I'm not saying that men are doing all the work here;  what I am saying
is that men tend to do the lion's share (biology pun intended) of the work
asking people out, and women the lion's share of the work discriminating
between suitors.  Still.  Despite the advances that our society has made in
equality.
        
        The burden of discrimination lies upon the person who isn't asking,
but is being asked.


#34 of 129 by senna on Wed May 22 23:22:48 2002:

Wait a second, John, am I hearing you say essentially what I think I'm hearing
you say?  What it sounds like is that you're saying that because all a woman
has to do is flex her hip muscles enough to open her legs when a guy comes
along, it's okay to hold her to a higher standard than the guy who does the
seeking and pursuit?  It sounds like you're putting a higher level of value
on the work the man does in a sexual encounter, that of choosing who to sleep
with and making it happen, than the woman, and thus defending (devil's
advocating or otherwise) the use of separate, differing terms for promiscuous
members of the two genders. 

That's a wild overstatement, obviously, but it still sounds like you're
holding a woman more responsible for who she sleeps with since she basically
just has to give a "yay" or "nay."  I'm sure my impression is innacurate, but
still.  



#35 of 129 by flem on Thu May 23 17:04:09 2002:

More responsible?  where do you get that?


#36 of 129 by jazz on Thu May 23 17:09:52 2002:

This response has been erased.



#37 of 129 by jazz on Thu May 23 17:25:16 2002:

        Hrm, that didn't make sense.  Let's try that again.

        The role of the pursuer and the role of the pursued are different, as
you mentioned.  A successful pursuer must be able to make quick decisions as
to who they are interested in, and must have the ability to pursue and create
new relationships, and often must be willing to pursue more than one person
with the understanding that pursuit sometimes does not work out.  A successful
pursuee must be able to make effective decisions on much less superficial
qualities, and often must be willing to hold back on getting into a
relationship if they aren't sure about a person.

        The role that, in this simplified duality, makes the final decision
is the pursuee.  Shouldn't the one who makes the final decision be held to
a different standard than the person who originally proposes the idea? 
Shouldn't managers who approve a product to be released be held to a different
sort of standards - not higher or lower, but different - than the engineers
that came up with the product idea?


#38 of 129 by pthomas on Fri May 24 00:33:12 2002:

It would be logical to hold the manager who approves the release to the
same standard as the manager who approved development of the product in
the first place. The factors involved in the decision are essentially
the same - given the available information, is it reasonable to conclude
that action would have a high probability of success/profit? Is the
product/proposal of high quality? You get the idea.

Tying this analogy into the main topic of the discussion, this means that
the decision to pursue someone should be evaluated by the same standard
as the pursued's decision to accept the pursuer's advances. 


#39 of 129 by oval on Sat May 25 17:31:17 2002:

thanks you. i didn't quite buy #37.

if someone pursues me, it's probable that they would be showing off their
finer qualities. if i accept and then they do something horrible to me, i
really don't want to be held accoutable for their actions.



#40 of 129 by i on Sun May 26 12:09:07 2002:

Hmmm.  It's reasonable that some New Product Concepts guy somewhere
might be required to crank out X ideas (good, bad, or indifferent) per
week and that he'd be ranked "excellent performance" if just one idea
per month was worthy of serious consideration.  But this is about like
a guy noticing gals in the parking lot.  Actual pursuit is far more
like building a small factory & trying to sell widgets in a test market.

There are plenty of "Johnny Wild Oats" guys who'll pursue pretty much
any gal they notice, do their hormone thing, leave because of boredom/
dumping/pregnancy/responsibility, and repeat the pattern.  I don't know
if i'd call 'em sapient, and probably wouldn't oppose the government
castrating 'em as public health hazards (espec. AIDS vectors).

On the flip side, i knew a guy in college who believed that he could
NOT, as a man, refuse to have sex with any woman who wanted it.  He
was otherwise quite intelligent, nice, and very good looking.  It would
interesting (in a sad sort of way) to know how his life worked out.


#41 of 129 by emblem on Mon May 27 06:31:31 2002:

Sex with different partners before settling down has its risks, but it can
be beneficial.  Not being married, or a solid girlfreind/boyfriend can make
sex a difficult thing because genetically and hormonally humans need it...to
a point. And having a sexual partner thats always there helps you with that.
But when a steady sexual partner isnt available, then different partners ehlp
you, and i think that people's sexual interests change throughout thier life,
weather its a homo thing or just different things turn them on in a person.
Ofcourse there are the "Johnny Wild Oats" guys, but just because a
relationship didn't work out doesn't mean people should stop having sex.  And
if you are still in a learning process or discovering new things that you
like, than sex with different people is acceptable.  And slutty phases that
men/women go thru happens to almost everybody at some point in thier life.
Then again, maybe society is just more accepting of sex than it has ever been
before.


#42 of 129 by i on Mon May 27 12:04:16 2002:

Re: #41:
Speaking in the very limited context of young people developing and
discovering themselves in a world free of consequences, i mostly agree
with you.  And if HIV infections progressed like ebola virus infections
(killing victims/vectors very quick, very sure, & (medical costs) very
cheap), i might be tempted to agree with you in the real world.  But
that ain't the case.  More realistic would be to tell young folk to
stick to masturbation and burn HIV vectors at the stake on-air during
major league sports half-times.  Maybe castrate skip-town fathers and
Clinton Syndrome sufferers while we're at it.


#43 of 129 by flem on Tue May 28 17:10:40 2002:

Or we could, I don't know, maybe work on a fucking CURE?


#44 of 129 by jaklumen on Tue May 28 20:40:06 2002:

What think you of working on fucking PREVENTION?

I mean, really.  A cure would be excellent, but it's only part of the 
solution, and I think the CDC and the UN Committee would agree that 
prevention is a weak area.  "Safe sex" never existed, but "safer sex" 
is realistic.  It is realistic to ask people to avoid riskier 
behaviors, and to limit their partners.

It is a cop-out to assume people are just full of raging hormones, and 
that this facet is ultimately futile.  It is possible that another 
epidemic outbreak may be necessary for those who must learn the hard 
way-- HIV infection is on the rise again in gay and bisexual young men-
- they have not had friends die to AIDS.  Black and Hispanic gay men 
are suffering probably the most due to cultural taboos.  Medical 
treatment has improved, but it is enoromously expensive-- and-- the 
STDs we *can* effectively treat are beginning to grow resistant to 
existing medications.  These STDs increase chances of HIV infection.

HIV in Africa is an enoromous problem.  Poverty and lack of education 
about the disease make treatment and prevention programs difficult and 
challenging.  The obstacles are socioeconomic and somewhat cultural.

Drug use with unsterile needles is another problem, and I believe some 
people suggested some solutions elsewhere.  Alcohol abuse is very 
indirect, but I am referring to problems of rape and in general, where 
alcohol is a part of sexually charged situations and individuals are 
impaired in judgement due to intoxication.

I don't need to blather on.  I'm sure my words are rather amateurish 
and lacking in scope.  *But* I have had some education through 
classes, and my wife has been trained in AIDS issues.  She volunteered 
for an organization that assisted AIDS patients.  A cure is good, but 
it will not end it forever, I am extremely sure, until our behavior 
begins to significantly change.  We could bring back the plague, 
possibly, if our sanitation practices returned to that of the Middle 
Ages.


#45 of 129 by lelande on Wed May 29 01:51:21 2002:

you're so right, dude. you really didn't need to blather on.


#46 of 129 by i on Wed May 29 02:12:19 2002:

Re #43: 
Thinking about a *cure* for HIV that could put a dent in the global 
problem in the next 10 to 15 years is about as realistic as thinking
about a *cure* for heart disease.  Ever notice that heart diseases is
the leading cause of high-profile death & disability amoung the very
gender, class, and age group that controls most of the world's wealth
and medical research, and has virtually unlimited access to the best
medical care that the world can provide?  There's loads of free info
on how to cut your risk of heart disease, and loads of treatments to
slow or reduce the damage caused by heart disease - none of 'em free
and none for-sure - but all the money & power in the world can't buy
our VP a *cure*!  And heart disease doesn't mutate like HIV does to
resist drugs.

And even if Santa Claus brings us a magic wand tomorrow that will cure
every STD case on the planet with a single wave, that won't do one bit
of good for all the unwanted babies born to hopeless were-just-having-
fun "parents" on an already-horribly-overcrowded planet with no way off.

(For hotter hell, look at HIV in the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th worlds.  *Both* 
the society and the authorities are in denial and/or prevented by taboo
from doing much anything about it in many places.  Even if they were
rationally fanatical about fixing the problem, the resources just ain't
there.  And the too-long-living HIV carriers develop all sorts of very
destructive ways to deal with their disease.  In many area, the idea
that having sex with enough virgins will cure HIV is accepted as truth,
and the de-facto minimum age for girls raped by men working on this
cure is *0* years.  At what point does members of a society "acting 
human" and "doing the natural thing" become "self-inflicted genocide"?) 


#47 of 129 by i on Wed May 29 02:13:23 2002:

(leland slipped in)


#48 of 129 by flem on Wed May 29 14:50:08 2002:

That's all well and good.  I understand that in most parts of the world, huge
amounts of work on prevention is needed.  But *here*, in *my* world, where
people are educated about AIDS, have the scientific knowledge and excess
means, the job isn't done.  The dangerous meme around here is that if you have
a normal, moral sex life, AIDS just isn't your problem.  You can forget about
it and move on.  You don't need to help fund research to find a cure.  You can
self-righteously tell the rest of the world that if they weren't so 
backward/uneducated/immoral, they wouldn't be having this little problem.  
  Safe sex is a workaround, not a bugfix. Let's fix the problem, not just 
expect people to contort their sex lives into areas considered relatively 
safe.  Note that this is *in addition* to working on prevention.  


#49 of 129 by jazz on Wed May 29 23:16:36 2002:

        People're reading into what I've said here.  Of course someone who was
pursuing you would try to show off their best qualities - that's their *job*
as a pursuer, that's what will make them a successful pursuer.  Your job as
the pursued is to be able to see through that, and try to realistically
evaluate the pursuer.


#50 of 129 by i on Thu May 30 01:01:57 2002:

Re: #48
Are you aware of how many $billion$ per year are going into direct and
indirect research on the problem?  If you magically boosted the HIV-cure
research budget to as much as is spent on *all* medical research, for
*all* diseases combined, starting yesterday and continuing *forever*,
than doubled *that*, there would *still* not be any real scientific
prospect for the kind of cure that you want for 20+ years.  That's over
a generation, and in large parts of the world, the HIV+ bones of *most
of the population* will have been picked clean years before that.  The
attitude that "i can risk HIV 'cause they'll have a cure before i'd get
very sick from it" is a big part of why infection rates are bouncing 
back up in many groups that public health people *though* had been
taught about safe sex, prevention, etc.

Not that "screw as you will & don't sweat the consequences" would be a
survivable attitude for humanity to have even if Allah snapped his 
fingers & made HIV vanish tomorrow.  There's something called "runaway
population growth & crash" that really easy to demonstrated with a few
rats in a cage in a lab.  Only there's no guarantee that Earth would be
able to support humans after the crash, and no sign of alien scientists
who'd move the survivors to new planets & feed 'em there after we'd
given 'em their desired experimental result.


#51 of 129 by orinoco on Thu May 30 03:31:09 2002:

(Those who like to take a long view of things will say that AIDS is helping
us stave off that ultimate population crash.  Those who like to take a long
view of things tend to be keeping their heads up their collective ass.)


#52 of 129 by phenix on Thu May 30 04:11:38 2002:

aids isn't doing dick
we'd need an ebola outbrack in new deli to really do that.
we're looking at that population crash as it is, it's just a matter of weather
it'll be 4 or 6 billion dead


#53 of 129 by jazz on Thu May 30 14:54:52 2002:

        HIV, being a retrovirus, mutates at a staggering rate, and is indeed
difficult to find a vaccine or a cure for.  No less than the noted Jonas Salk
tried and only partially succeeded.  So there may well be no cure in the next
twenty years, though it is impossible to say with certainty.

        That said, it's a disease.  It doesn't have a moral message.


#54 of 129 by flem on Thu May 30 20:45:58 2002:

I was trying to remember why I opened this can of worms in the first place,
so I read back.  It's mostly #42 I am reacting to.  I may be misreading, but
this seems to be saying that 1) because consequences can be so severe, "young
people" should not be allowed to explore their sexuality, 2) knowingly 
engaging in behavior that exposes someone else to AIDS is a crime deserving
public execution in a painful fasion, and 3) what the heck, let's commit 
mayhem on some other people we think are morally weak, too.  (WTF is "Clinton 
Syndrome", anyway?  Enjoying a good BJ?)
  I'm sympathetic to #2, though I would probably prefer hanging or perhaps
a gas chamber to burning.  It's mostly 1 and 3 I have trouble with.  I don't 
think AIDS is a problem that requires young people to stop having sex.  I 
think that "skip-town fathers" is a reference to a far subtler and more 
complex problem than such heavy handed moralism can counter (in fact, I lay
a nontrivial part of the blame for the existence of the problem squarely 
at the door of such moralism), and the other reason #42 suggests for 
mutilating people is something I don't even understand.  
  My reaction whenever people suggest that, given all the possible consequences
of sex, people should just stop having so much sex, is similar to my reaction
when keesan suggests that we wouldn't have to pay high gas prices if we just
all decided not to own cars.  I'm not interested in giving up significant
portions of my lifestyle, much as I'm not interested in amputating my legs to 
keep my feet from hurting.  



#55 of 129 by jaklumen on Thu May 30 23:30:55 2002:

Your last sentence, Greg, speaks volumes.  It's not necessarily a good 
or a bad sentiment, but I think most people would share it.


#56 of 129 by orinoco on Fri May 31 05:57:16 2002:

Most people agree that it would be over the top to cut your feet off. 
There are people who think that abstinence, or life without a car (or
vegetarianism, or not having cable, or giving up chocolate) are perfectly
legitimate choices. That's really where the problem is. 

If you think your feet are expendable, then amputation is a pretty good
response to sore feet.  If you think double-fudge cheesecake is
expendable, dieting is a pretty good response to weight gain.  And, yeah,
if you think sex is expendable, abstinence is a pretty good response to
AIDS.  <shrugs>



#57 of 129 by jaklumen on Fri May 31 09:34:46 2002:

I have a friend that shot off his leg because it didn't work and hurt 
like the devil.  He wanted to remain productive with a prosthetic leg 
rather than be slowed down with a painful leg.


#58 of 129 by flem on Fri May 31 13:42:32 2002:

The problem is when you think, say, cars are expendable and try to get *other*
people to give them up, rather than trying to help them solve their problems
in a constructive way.  


#59 of 129 by jazz on Fri May 31 15:41:56 2002:

        There's a hell of a strong evolutionary selection pressure to have sex.
If any of your ancestors, any of them, didn't have libidoes, then you wouldn't
be here.  I do think it's unreasonable to expect logic to overrule the
strongest selection pressure there is, and I do think that when such a
solution is offered - though not necessarily here - it often comes with
undertones of "*they* need to stop having the kind of sex *they* like".


#60 of 129 by lelande on Sat Jun 1 23:03:52 2002:

if only the mass knew it needed saving.

there seem to echo notions, in some sentiments here, to do with appropriate
ways for enormous groups of people to handle their privates, to do with
expectations had of national health programs' sway over nature. i'd say it
sounds like some folks are projecting their own sex lives onto their ethos.
even if they didn't know what they were doing at the outset, they can at least
say they did it all the only right way there was.

what talk has there been of the possibility of people selectively immune to
HIV? i'm curious, so if anyone has any info or ideas, please drop them here.


#61 of 129 by i on Sun Jun 2 04:47:50 2002:

Re: #54 & following
The "torch 'em on TV" scheme would have to answer to the same standard 
as ticketing folks for driving with little kids not in child safety seats 
- does the policy save enough innocent life & limb to justify the costs?  
Getting through the skulls of the many paragons of cluelessness, denial,
& disfunctionality was my point. 

Assuming that you don't have some brilliant master plan in hand to turn
young people into very faithful users of extremely reliable HIV-stopping
barrier methods, how high does the death rate need to go before you'd
support telling kids to stop exploring their sexuality with partners and
masturbate instead?  10%?  50%?  100%?

Best i'd heard, Clinton was & is a sex addict.  One hell of a charmer,
too.  Perfect resume' for a Typhoid Mary of VD, eh?  Society has as much
pubic welfare interest in the behavior of such Don Juan's as it does in
the intoxification of airline pilots...which does not guarantee that any
good policy to deal with the problem actually exists.

The skip-town dad (or rare mom who keeps dropping her babies off at the
orphanage) is a prime candidate for having those little tubes closed up.
Again, this does not a working public policy make.

(Last i heard, the "people naturally immune to HIV" idea was a flop.
Some people take longer to progress to the later (deadly) stages of HIV
(different immune system, varient of the virus, or what?), but it looks
like everyone ends up there after a while.) 

The ultimately deadly pair of "almost everyone wants to be sexually
active, with multiple partners over time" and "HIV will kill virtually
all the members of a human population behaving that way" are why i start
using phrases like "self-inflicted genocide".  If there are motorboats
'most everywhere, sea cows are too attracted to motorboats, and sea cows
tend to die of the wounds they get from propellors, then sea cows may
go extinct in the modern world.  That it's humans' fault won't save the
sea cow.  That it's HIV's fault won't save us. 


#62 of 129 by orinoco on Sun Jun 2 19:57:18 2002:

That it's promiscuity's fault won't save us either, for what that's worth.


#63 of 129 by flem on Mon Jun 3 17:58:46 2002:

Oh, my.  Where to start.  

Walter, for someone who appears to have paid some attention to what's
happening with AIDS in the world, you appear to have retained some glaring
errors of fact.  You appear, for instance, to believe that "HIV will kill
virtually all members of a human population [in which the majority 
are sexually active with multiple partners over time]."  Huh?  You do 
remember, don't you, that it's a precondition for catching HIV by 
sexual transmission that your partner has HIV?  You are aware that it's 
possible to test for HIV with high accuracy, yes?  I assert that these 
two facts suggest a method by which it may, in fact, be possible to 
get one's freak on with very little likelihood of contracting HIV.  If 
the sea manatees knew where to go where there weren't any propellers, 
they might not face extinction.  

Clinton may well be a sex addict.  I'm a sex addict, too.  I get all 
cranky and irritable and such when I'm forced to go without sex for 
long periods of time.  I've been known to do irrational things in 
pursuit of sex.  As it happens, (and this may be a shock to some of you) 
there are circles in which the quirks of my personality are regarded as 
charming.  I'd be a perfect recipe for a "Typhoid Mary of VD", too, but
for one minor but crucial fact:  I DON'T HAVE VD.  Guess what?  Neither 
does Clinton, to the best of my knowledge.  

This kind of twisted, limping argument for abstinence tends to suggest to 
me that the proponent has something against sex, not against AIDS.  


#64 of 129 by oval on Mon Jun 3 21:12:42 2002:

<wild applause>



#65 of 129 by orinoco on Mon Jun 3 21:29:45 2002:

<approving nod>


#66 of 129 by cyklone on Mon Jun 3 23:24:38 2002:

<high five!>


#67 of 129 by jaklumen on Mon Jun 3 23:59:53 2002:

resp:63  Is this to imply that Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants 
because Hillary was too busy or what not to give him some lovin'?  We 
don't know for sure.  We do know, however, that he allegedly engaged 
in a number of affairs during his time as governor of Arkansas and as 
President of the United States.  We know that there was scandal before 
his affair with Monica; but it would seem that the president just 
couldn't stop.  He was definitely in danger of being caught-- and 
essentially, he was caught doing something improper a number of 
times.  If it wasn't an addiction, he may have had more room to cover 
it up.

At any rate, there is some reason to believe Clinton is a sex addict.  
We have no clear-cut evidence to believe you are the same, Greg.

Something against sex rather than against AIDS.. please.  Perhaps 
abstinence is poorly represented here, but I *do* know that it is 
promoted in AIDS education-- not as *the* alternative, but as *an* 
alternative, and as the *safest* alternative.

HIV is transmitted primarily through blood and genital secretions.  
Sexual behavior listed in most education programs are as follows, with 
riskiest first:

Anal sex-- riskiest, since there is penetration and genital 
secretions, with the risk of tearing anal tissue and introducing blood.

Vaginal sex-- less risky, but more mingling of genital secretions.

Oral sex (penile to mouth)-- moderate to moderately low risk.  Risk 
increases: 1) when ejaculation is involved, 2) when there is bleeding 
in the mouth and/or gums.

Abstinence from sexual contact-- relatively little risk, which I 
believe includes hugging, kissing, fondling, petting, etc.

Sharing of needles would involve primarily blood.. I am not sure how 
risky it is considered-- probably moderately high.

Other risky behaviors include sharing of sex toys without 
sterilization, and S&M activities that may draw blood (I don't know 
how risky the latter is considered, but I do know the community 
considers how to play more safely).  Prior contractions of other STDs 
are also risky, as they further increase the risk of eventually 
contracting HIV.  Herpes and Hepatitis C, for example, have no 
treatment that will permanently cure infection, especially the former; 
and many STDs, including gonorrhea and syphilis, are beginning to grow 
resistant to existing treatments.

Okay-- consider that, alone.  Even if we find a very effective 
treatment against HIV, what's to say it won't grow progressively 
resistant like many other bacteria and viruses are today?

About the mantees-- that may be-- but I think it's rather 
irresponsible for us to do nothing.  And all my point is-- something 
can be done, especially in regards to AIDS.  A cure shouldn't be the 
only solution-- prevention needs to be considered, too, or the cure 
may not last forever.


#68 of 129 by jazz on Tue Jun 4 00:31:38 2002:

        Don't think about cunnilingus much, do ya?

        I don't think it's the case that the moral and ethical fiber of the
human race has suddenly been eroded, though it's not really possible to prove
or disprove.  People, or their ancestors, have been doing it for the last
billion years or so.  While we have aggravated a lot of natural factors that
predispose us to disease by living in such close proximity to one another,
we've also imposed social and moral codes on the proper expression of our
sexual drives.  I don't believe for a minute that we're sinners and therefore
being punished for our wickedness, and the evidence suggests that such
diseases have emerged, and far from becoming epidemic, disappeared in the
past.


#69 of 129 by i on Tue Jun 4 01:32:41 2002:

Re: #63
Let's start with the personal.  Considering how much damage Clinton
could know damn well that he was risking to an administration & 
government, the attention & performance of which would be making &
breaking millions (at least) of human lives, i don't think that you
could possibly have done so much harm if you wished to.  In fact, i
suspect that you probably made the "right" choice more often than he,
in spite of the far lesser consequences of your making the wrong one.

On to the Typhoid Mary of VD.  If you don't have it, then you are
almost certainly sadly lacking in one or more critical behavioral
areas.  Like a hard-drinking pilot who gets & stays cold sober two
days before take-off, you are happily deficient as a menace to public
safety.  (Highly mobile males with many causual partners, preferences
for riskier behaviors with them (see #67), and ignorance/denial about
health are a huge factor in the spread of HIV through a population.)

Now to a really fat hair to split.  I used the phrase "almost everyone
wants to be sexually active, with multiple...", you used "the majority
sexually active..."  95+% vs. 50.01+% is a very large gap.  I didn't
bother stating a few extras like "with a normal human range of risky
behaviors, a seed sub-population that's HIV+, etc."  From your follow-
on, i'll guess that you're talking about well-informed and responsible 
individuals with very good current first-world medical resources; i'm 
talking about the public health of populations that we can but dream
about getting up to that level of behavior and health care.  To cut to
the chase, we're arguing about whether wood burns; you're dropping the
lit match onto a thick, fresh green log and i'm dropping it into the
average old woodpile with plenty of dead leaves, mouse nests, etc.

Abstinence?  If the alternative is high-risk behavior, then YES, most
certainly absinence would be far better than the horrible alternatives
now playing out in too many parts of the world.  But, on the flip, if
the alternative is informed, responsible, low-risk behavior, then let
me encourage you to spend much more of your leisure time enjoying sex
with your partner(s) of choice, and perhaps cut down on your hours at
work so that you have yet more time for it.  Just, please, don't go
assuming that your own ability to handle both driving and alcohol is
any proof that everyone else can, or that loads of innocent people are
not dying for the lack. 


#70 of 129 by jaklumen on Tue Jun 4 05:31:31 2002:

resp:68 I do-- it's just generally not considered as risky as 
fellatio, *shrug*, depending on who you talk to.  I think dental dams 
are indeed advocated, but I don't think they are quite to the extent 
condoms are.


#71 of 129 by flem on Tue Jun 4 16:52:52 2002:

> From your follow-
> on, i'll guess that you're talking about well-informed and responsible
> individuals with very good current first-world medical resources; i'm
> talking about the public health of populations that we can but dream
> about getting up to that level of behavior and health care.

Yes, that's right.  I'm not really talking about what ought to be done
in the parts of Africa and so forth you mention earlier with unbelievably 
high infection rates.  There, you're right that one would be dangerously
crazy to employ anything less than a sexual strategy that woudl be 
considered paranoid elsewhere.  
  But elsewhere, such as where I live, such a strategy does verge on
paranoia.  Most people of my acquaintance (almost all, even) actually are 
well-informed and responsible individuals who do have access to 
excellent modern medical resources.  What I'm saying, and this is basically
*all* I'm saying, is that it's reasonable for those well-informed, responsible
people to explore their sexuality, within the dictates of common sense.  
Yes, this introduces a slight risk.  It's not my place or yours to tell 
other people whether that risk is acceptable or not.  


#72 of 129 by jazz on Tue Jun 4 17:27:09 2002:

        You risky fucker ...


#73 of 129 by i on Wed Jun 5 10:36:14 2002:

Re: #71
Heh.  There are plenty of populations far closer than Africa that flunk
the "well-informed and responsible" test.  Teens are perhaps the most
dangerous, because they're generally easy targets for social pressure,
far short of well-informed & responsible, in denial about risks and
consequences, and hugely self-deluded about all of the above (plus mostly
cut off from medical resources).  But HIV is on the rise in a fair number
of demographic groups in America.

I'll agree that public health authorities should direct nothing but a
steady stream of hard facts toward well-informed & responsible sexually
active folks.  


#74 of 129 by i on Mon Jun 10 00:43:07 2002:

Gee.  Looks like this thread just totally died for lack of controversy.

How about we pass laws that everyone has to start having at least five
times as much sex (low-risk only) to cut down the time that they've got
available for tooling around in their giant SUV's, working  for money
they don't need to spend on paving the world with strip malls and mini-
mansions, buying stuff from factories pouring toxic wastes into Earth's
water, etc.?

No....make that ten times as much.  Harsh penalties for scoflaws, too. 


#75 of 129 by flem on Mon Jun 10 16:47:10 2002:

What, you expect that to be controversial?  :)


#76 of 129 by orinoco on Wed Jun 12 03:03:46 2002:

What the hell, I'll bite.  I think the expectation that people have lots of
sex is just as ridiculous as the expectation that they don't have much.  


#77 of 129 by jaklumen on Wed Jun 12 07:08:41 2002:

Well, apparently, there are a great deal of people who *do* have sex 
moderately.  But there is a small minority of people who have sex 
quite frequently, with many different partners up to 300+.  It's those 
kinds of numbers-- those in the scores, or few hundreds, that worry 
those concerned with transmission of STDs.


#78 of 129 by mynxcat on Wed Jun 12 13:42:55 2002:

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#79 of 129 by jaklumen on Wed Jun 12 13:47:56 2002:

I'm not sure.  Celebrities like rock stars and athletes number among 
them.  Portions of the gay/bisexual male community.


#80 of 129 by orinoco on Wed Jun 12 15:53:47 2002:

(Uh, lumen?  Numbers that high are kind of startling no matter which gender
you're into.  Saying "oh, they're gay men" doesn't count as an explanation.)


#81 of 129 by mynxcat on Wed Jun 12 16:00:24 2002:

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#82 of 129 by jaklumen on Thu Jun 13 03:26:40 2002:

resp:80 yep, I figured I'd get that.  If you'd rather I be specific, 
it has been noted that it is more particular among numbers of young 
black and Hispanic gay males because of cultural taboos, machismo 
among them.  For example, "tops" are not seen as necessarily gay, 
while "bottoms" most certainly are.

In general, it has been found that infection is once again on the rise 
in the gay/bi youth population, and it is surmised that it is because 
the fear of AIDS is not as prominent as it once was; these young men 
do not have friends who have died yet.

Why it's not equally a concern among the lesbian/female bi population, 
I'm not sure, but I think risk factors are not considered as high.  
They also don't seem to be interested so much in cruising for sex.  
(Not all gay/bi men are, but if you think the cruise culture doesn't 
exist, you're kidding yourself.)

It has been reported in the news media: I remember hearing about it on 
NPR and in a Seattle newspaper.

Clearly, numbers this high among either gender would indicate a degree 
of sexual addiction, which is a concern.  However, it is folly not to 
examine that gays and bisexuals may be part of the picture.  Men with 
both male and female partners are a concern: there is a larger 
potential pool of infection.

I congratulate you if you haven't been there, Dan, but trust me, I 
have.  Pretending that everyone *is* equally sexually promiscuous to 
this kind of degree isn't quite fair.

Besides, I didn't say the rock stars and athletes were necessarily 
gay/bisexual.  Freddy Mercury fits the bill, but Magic Johnson, Wilt 
Chamberlain, Gene Simmons, and others who have boasted or spoke of 
their numerous conquests clearly do not (yes mynx, they did get away 
with that and then they told everyone).

Also, the numbers of Catholic priests who are now being found to be 
pedophilic or otherwise sexually predatory-- I don't think 
homosexuality is really a root cause here.  There are indeed 
homosexual priests-- this has been confirmed-- but I doubt they 
necessarily comprise a significant portion.


#83 of 129 by void on Thu Jun 13 17:02:36 2002:

   No one really knows about woman-to-woman HIV transmission.  There
was one study in 1991, and all the women in the study were IV drug
users, bisexual, or both.


#84 of 129 by jazz on Thu Jun 13 17:39:14 2002:

        Studies are scarce, but available scientific evidence points to a much
lower rate of transmission for cunnilingus than for fellatio, fisting, or anal
sex.


#85 of 129 by void on Fri Jun 14 00:39:00 2002:

   Possible, but no one knows.  'Sides, who says lesbians don't fist
or share anal toys?


#86 of 129 by orinoco on Fri Jun 14 03:08:38 2002:

(ding!)


#87 of 129 by jaklumen on Fri Jun 14 16:10:42 2002:

Just out of curiousity, again, how does one sanitize toys?  I had a 
gay friend who said he knew how to do it, with bleach-- I think it was 
similar to the way you sterilize needles, the way they teach nurses.


#88 of 129 by phenix on Fri Jun 14 16:39:53 2002:

you can a) boil 'em
b) use bleech 
c) only use them on one person.
basically if it's a porous surface your stuck with c


#89 of 129 by jazz on Fri Jun 14 16:53:38 2002:

        Re #85:

        I certainly didn't.  I was just listing different types of sex. 
Obviously a gay male that is only into mutual masturbation is safer than a
gay female who's into bloodsports.


#90 of 129 by phenix on Fri Jun 14 17:02:34 2002:

or any of the "vampyr" varity of pud monkey


#91 of 129 by orinoco on Fri Jun 14 19:04:48 2002:

Re #87: AFAIK, there is no "way you sterilize needles" at a hospital.  Unless
I'm very much mistaken, hospitals don't re-use needles.


#92 of 129 by mynxcat on Fri Jun 14 20:44:39 2002:

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#93 of 129 by i on Sat Jun 15 02:36:20 2002:

Medical-quality sterile is easy to do with the right gadget.  It looks like
a very-high-end all-stainless toaster oven.  Stuff goes into it on thin
metal trays, and gets cooked in 250-300 degree steam for 10+ minutes.

Re: #78
Going home from the meat-market singles bar with a different sex partner
every night is (very sad to say, disease-wise) how some people live.  Do
that for a few years, and 1000+ sex partners is fairly easy to reach.  No
need to be a model or famous - fairly young & 90th percentile attractive
is more than good enough for most meat-market bars.


#94 of 129 by jazz on Mon Jun 17 16:56:34 2002:

        I've known a few people who've lived that way, but for most it's just
a short phase.

        You don't even have to be young and ninetieth-percentile attractive.


#95 of 129 by oval on Mon Jun 17 20:28:08 2002:

..people can get by on just the mere fact that they are intersting.



#96 of 129 by mynxcat on Tue Jun 18 14:51:42 2002:

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#97 of 129 by jazz on Tue Jun 18 17:26:25 2002:

        Yup.


#98 of 129 by oval on Wed Jun 19 02:39:02 2002:

or human.



#99 of 129 by lelande on Thu Jun 20 22:02:08 2002:

or there.


#100 of 129 by oval on Fri Jun 21 01:27:36 2002:

or an inanimate object with an orifice.



#101 of 129 by orinoco on Fri Jun 21 01:45:43 2002:

I don't think toys count as 'slutty,' really.  A sex toy with scruples and
discretion would probably be considered defective...


#102 of 129 by mynxcat on Fri Jun 21 16:51:45 2002:

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#103 of 129 by i on Sat Jun 22 01:07:45 2002:

It depends - does it say anything about scruples or discretion on the
personality module that you just plugged into your Bimbobot(r)?  Did
you pay enough attention to know?  Or did you download a pirate person-
ality and flash it into a hotwired pm?  Count yourself lucky if the
pirate per' wasn't rescripted by some sicko with torture fantasies, Mr.
Flasher!


#104 of 129 by oval on Mon Jun 24 07:22:05 2002:

i dunno that grapefruit is probably pretty discrete before someone cuts a
hole in it and has his way with it, even with his brand new prince albert.



#105 of 129 by lelande on Mon Jun 24 09:14:34 2002:

the cherry 2000 is a high class model.


#106 of 129 by jazz on Mon Jun 24 17:04:09 2002:

        This shit is getting a might weird ...


#107 of 129 by mynxcat on Mon Jun 24 21:32:08 2002:

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#108 of 129 by jaklumen on Tue Jun 25 08:24:20 2002:

hey man, you ain't seen the half of it.


#109 of 129 by jazz on Tue Jun 25 16:37:05 2002:

        ... and this is coming from a man who's seen things.  I mean, just this
morning, I heard the theme song to Gilligan's Island sung to the tune of
Amazing Grace (it works, try it) and heard the subject of necrophillia
discussed before noon.


#110 of 129 by phenix on Tue Jun 25 22:34:28 2002:

better is gilligan's island sung to the tune of that led zepplin song


#111 of 129 by orinoco on Wed Jun 26 00:19:34 2002:

Er... which Led Zeppelin song would that be?  I suppose you could do it to
the first half of Stairway to Heaven, but after that "if there's a bustle in
your hedgerow" bit it wouldn't work out so well.


#112 of 129 by cyklone on Wed Jun 26 02:09:13 2002:

Is this the slutty phases or slutty phrases item?


#113 of 129 by mynxcat on Wed Jun 26 02:51:53 2002:

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#114 of 129 by jaklumen on Wed Jun 26 09:41:45 2002:

resp:111 It's already been done, Dan-- a tune called "Stairway to 
Gilligan's Isle" and Dr. Demento has played on the show in the past.  
Betcha dimes to dollars Tim Ryan has a copy of it.


#115 of 129 by director on Fri Apr 4 03:17:32 2003:

I just have to say that I have the utmoast respect for women especially when
they are in there slutty phases.  How can you tell a women is in her slutty
phase though? Now that is the question?
enter
stop


#116 of 129 by jazz on Fri Apr 4 15:48:09 2003:

        Because they'll loudly announce how they just broke up with their
boyfriend, if they're interested in you (either as potential dating or ONS
material, or as someone to have around to bolster their self-esteem).


#117 of 129 by jaklumen on Fri Apr 4 20:37:44 2003:

or they go around announcing to everyone else how great the fucking is 
with so-and-so.


#118 of 129 by cyklone on Fri Apr 4 21:45:24 2003:

It's all about booty language . . . .


#119 of 129 by i on Sat Apr 5 01:15:30 2003:

If she's going with a guy, she is no more than distantly polite.  If
she isn't going with a guy, she is very friendly to me, with a sort of
open & eager expression in her face & voice.

I'll be polite and maintain a definite distance from her, but respect
is too nice a word for my attitude.


#120 of 129 by jazz on Sun Apr 6 00:56:26 2003:

        I guess the question is really how to *get* with someone who's in
that phase.  I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to, but hey, whatever
works.

        If you're curious whether someone's seeing someone, it's pretty easy
to figure out.  Just ask them.  Tap her on the shoulder and ask if she has
a beau.  Or approach it indirectly, like, "damn, I bet your boyfriend loves
that", or "I sure hope your boyfriend appreciates that."

        Well, that won't tell you whether they have one or not, but it'll
tell you if they want you to think they do. :P


#121 of 129 by vidar on Sun Apr 6 21:31:58 2003:

Well, it's not the original topic, but I should do that.  There's this 
woman in RoS whom I like, but I don't know if she's seeing anyone.  
Granted, even just asking will be hard, I rarely have an opening for 
flirting or it's awkward to create one.


#122 of 129 by phenix on Mon Apr 7 15:40:03 2003:

they just go up and ask if she's like some luv juice


#123 of 129 by vidar on Mon Apr 7 17:27:29 2003:

I've accidentally scared enough people I'm interested in that I don't 
want to seem like frightening her is my intention.  What I have found, 
however, is that if you just up front ask somebody out, if they're 
seeing somebody they mention that when they tell you no.

Next time I see her, I'll ask her out on something minor.  Like a drink 
after Ring (not the alcoholic kind, she's a little young for that).


#124 of 129 by jazz on Tue Apr 8 14:00:07 2003:

        I have the opposite experience;  if you're asking someone out, and
they're seeing someone, they don't often tell you at all.  May have to do with
the people I ask versus the ones you ask, though.


#125 of 129 by vidar on Tue Apr 8 14:28:56 2003:

Might also have to do with whether it's "just dating" or "going 
steady".  In any case, I'll respect a no, and follow through if 
response is possitive.


#126 of 129 by kewy on Fri May 2 03:24:42 2003:

From a female perspective, the "I bet your boyfriend love that" line is so
transparant, and pretty obnoxious in my mind.  I'd much rather be asked a
question directly, I'm not a fan of all the round-a-bout, yet obvious nuances
in getting to know someone.


#127 of 129 by jazz on Sat May 3 04:16:23 2003:

        It is pretty transparent, and a lot of people need that it seems.

        Crafting conversation is always more of an art than a science, though.


#128 of 129 by phenix on Sat May 3 15:22:46 2003:

y'know. ot. i feel bad for the poor boy (or whoever) that says that to katy..
but yha, i've been to quite a few sci-fi cons, and i have to say, the thrid
most painfull thing is watching a semi-suave geek blow it with that kinda
line


#129 of 129 by jazz on Sat May 3 23:04:07 2003:

        Cheesy works.

        Among the cheesier I've seen work personally.

        "You know, it occurs to me that I owe you an apology, for leaving
last night without asking you out.  Can I make it up to you, over dinner?"

        "I've decided something ... " "That you're just too cute to not ask
out."

        "How are you going to return it when you're done?  I know, here's my
phone number.  Call me when you're done.  Or give me yours.  And I'll call
you well before you're done."

        None of the above would work if you really took yourself all that
seriously.  But then if someone takes themselves that seriously, then I
don't want anything to do with them.


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