78 new of 155 responses total.
there yha go i. perfect plan
I'd be with you there. Otherwise, trying to be friendly is just a subterfuge, and what's the point?
Get to know them through friendship first, then if you feel you've got a chance, ask them on a date without using the word date. The worst thing that will happen is that they'll say "no." Even if that's the case, don't stop being friends just 'cause you can't get a date.
Bingo. :)
All right, that pushes the button down far enough to get the 25 cent rant. So, what the heck is it about the word "date" that is supposed to kill friendships? Do people actually think that if they don't utter the magic word, they won't be put in any embarrassing situations? Free Clue: It's probably crossed her mind that you might be interested, and you'll look a hell of a lot less stupid if you just up and ask her on a date than if you skulk around the subject like a thirteen year old virgin. You aren't fooling anyone, romeo.
Well, I think it's smoother to hear, "Would you like to go out for coffee sometime?" than "Would you like to go on a date?" It's just a more casual approach to earn the same thing.
yes, just like it's smoother to say "would you like a cup of coffee" instead of "would you like to get freaky buck nekkid stylez on my bed"
<laugh>
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I agree with michaela. I believe that asking "would you like to go on a date" is likely to earn you more "no"'s than asking "would you like to <adjective + activity> with me sometime?". I don't know that for certain, though.
Seems to me that a cup of coffee, especially now that that line has become such a commonly understood code phrase, *is* a date. It seems disingenuous at best to pretend it's not. Sigh. I guess I just have a problem with the whole elaborate ritual of it. Seems like it's unacceptable just to come right out and admit that you're interested. Seems like you have to make yourself look stupid two or three times first before you even find out if you have a chance.
87 slipped in. Yes, but *why*?
Asking someone for coffee/movie/dinner/drink/dancing/videos *is* showing interest. What it shows is that you not only want a date, but you've come up with an idea of where to go and what to do. I'd much rather hear, "Oh, you like billiards too? We should go to the billiard hall on W. Main some time." than "Wanna go on a date?" It just seems more mature and structured. However, I would not refuse, "Wanna go on a date?" ;-)
flembo, to my knowledge and to my practice there is no constraint against straight-forward propositions of any nature, there is no real need to play the game. at a party, smiling, tilting the head, squinting the eyes a little, sipping your drink and saying "let's go somewhere private" is pretty straightforward. the only time i like being coy, gamey, asking a girl to sit down for coffee or saying "hey let's go for a walk" (try it) is like challenging a player to a game of chess or poker, because it's the game and the conversation will be a succession of questions, get-to-know-me content, and clever banter. the questions and the clever banter are the game part. if she's not up to your skill level in these two areas, i suggest two options: 1) steer her through her own content with carefully laid questioning, if you're interested -- if you're not interested, then, 2) ask her for a handjob. tell her what she's saying isn't all that interesting, and a handjob is about all she's worth to you now.
I would actually find the person who just up and asked "wanna go on a date?" to be looking stupider than the person who asks about doing a certain activity.
So you prefer asking for handjobs instead of dates?
I guess I just think that asking "Wanna go on a date?" lacks a certain style. We all appreciate style, and "Wanna get some coffee?" sounds a lot smoother, especially if it is a first date situation. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be nervous enough over coffee, but a total wreck if I'm thinking of it as "A Date".
I guess what I'm really objecting to is not the decision whether or not to refer to it as a date, but the attempt to play it both ways. So, paraphrasing from (admittedly feeble) memory: "ask them out for coffee, *carefully avoiding the word 'date'*, and then if it doesn't work out, you won't have ruined your friendship" (emphasis mine) Why do people think that if they admit their interest, it will negatively impact the existing friendship?
fear. deeply embedded memories of parental rejection or disappointment. you know, the usual.
I love lelande. :)
What happened to the good old days when you could go out for coffee without it being understood to be a date? I prefer to look at that sort of thing as a get-to-know opportunity in which romance may or may not be a possibility. Or even, may not be.
Exactly...that's what a date USED to be...getting to know someone better.
ahhh . . . gaining acceptance.
I think someone's been reading a little too much into what I posted. There are some people who are fickle enough that they won't be your friends if you unsucessfully ask them out.
Then do you really want them as your "friend"?
depends on whether or not you want to try "saving" them.
I like getting to know people before actually "dating" them and/or going out on dates. Things like coffee let you get to know people without having too much invested in it. When I go for coffee with someone, I'd rather not label it as a date. I'd also rather not have someone ask me straight out for a date, maybe under certain circumstances, and with the right person it'd be alright, but I'm not sure what those would be. And then sticking to the question, first of all, if someone is my friend, we already go out for coffee and the like. I pretty much draw the friend and aquaintance line at "do we hang out?", so if a friend of mine asked me out for coffee I wouldn't think anything of it. I do think it might be abrupt if they asked for a date out of the blue. In my experience, things with friends just sort of... happen. You hang out a lot, and either have a talk or something else just happens. That's fine with me. I'd rather it happen that way.
it's a strategy. that much can be said. after about the 4th month of nothing "just happening", most folks i know start to shop for new strategies.
Even if I am successful, one of my habits could pose a problem.
Lot to digest here. I'm curious why no one has used the word "courting." "Dating" is commonplace, but the former term seems to be almost archaic in most contexts. I've thought a lot about this, and I think I agree with sentiments that a lasting relationship takes time, practice, and a lot of planning. Managing one needs a lot of work and constant maintainance, which unfortunately, I suppose many have forgotten about or don't quite understand. I hope you'll forgive me when I relate my own experiences, especially those in church settings, but I think it's appropriate. I agree with what's been said about friendship; so much pressure is put upon striving to impress and satisfying the immediate desires of sex. For those who would ballyhoo the church context I'm about to explain, let me say that I found the intents and ideals I was presented with to be very, very helpful. First of all, I had a lot of time in church youth groups to get to know others in an unthreatening context. There were a lot of group activities that were structured in such a way that expectations were fairly low and we had a chance to get to know each other. More importantly, we were encouraged to think about what qualities we would seek for in a mate, and what goals we wanted to accomplish with such a person. We were encouraged to think if a temple marriage was something we wanted (and yes, it has to be an individual decision.) There's some important points there. We were given opportunities to mix without all the pressure, while we had time to think about what we really wanted. It was gradually explained and emphasized more and more as we got older. I can't think of many places where we were otherwise encouraged to start thinking about such things at such a young age-- it began, more or less, when we were about 12. The LDS Church discourages dating before the age of 16, and when I finally did reach that age, I began to see some of the reasons why. Although sex wasn't a big factor in the first few years, a lot of my experiences were distastrous. I dated so many girls that had unreal expectations sometimes, hoping I would be more.. impressive, I guess. I had a lot of problems growing and it was an awkward time for me. I realized I had a much easier time when I dated friends, and when I went on group dates where friendship was a stronger factor than the expectation of making some sort of love connection. It was easier for me to relax and be myself, which I think most here would agree is important: to be yourself and not try to be someone you are not. In fact, it was the foundation that Julie and I built on. I met her at a church function. Again, I know people tend to discount religion, but it is an area where you know you are meeting people that share your moral and ethical principles-- your way of life. (Granted, you do more checking when you meet and start talking.) Julie is a touchy-feely sort of person, and so I misread her nonverbal language at first, but I felt free when I made it clear that I wanted to keep the terms on friendship at that time. Then I realized that I liked the way the relationship was growing. It was friendly at first, and warmed into affection that built its way into intimacy. We also decided upon marriage-- and a covenanted one at that in one of our church temples, before our intimacy was fully consummated. It is my firm belief that sexual contact does form a bond of some sort-- I don't think many would disagree with me there, and that is why I have held to the principle (as best as I have been able) of keeping it within my marriage. There are so many elements to a relationship, and not all of them are sexual, but I do think it is easier to have the former in place before the latter are added, as I think sex is a good mortar to the bricks of a relationship. I suppose there may be some that question some choices I have made in the past, and may think me a hypocrite. Some, I know, have questioned my integrity in such matters. That topic will remain for another item. To summarize-- go meet a mate where you share common interests, especially if those interests are fundamental and agreeable to your character. You can meet them anywhere, but I do believe organizations (and not all may be religious) that espouse your particular creed, philosophy, or way of living tend to be the best places to go. Clubs, bars, and the Internet, as said, are fine, but sex usually is more the emphasis.
In my mind, "courting" is socially archaic in modern America. It's more like quite prim & proper flirting in a world of chaperones, arranged marriages, fairly strong sex segregation, etc.
Heh. I once got great results from that word. :)
resp:108 Yes, that could be one definition.
My main reason for not simply using "Do you want to go on a date?" is because if they agree, the next question will be "what do you want to do?" By specifying an activity, you share one of your interests with the other person.
Exactly, and it shows you are capable of decisions and planning.
re 111 So you are saying that you don't want to share any of your interests with someone that you may potentially date?
Read it again kewy.
I read it again, and again, and again.
Ignore what people say about dating, and watch what they actually do.
Most people don't seem to be conscious of what they're doing, if they're doing
anything at all, and if you ask them they'll give you a confusing piece of
what they're willing to admit of what they're conscious of, which often
completely contradicts the way that they're behaving.
If you watch what they're actually doing, then it suddenly becomes very
consistent, and very easy to understand, as long as you're willing to throw
out a lot of pre-concieved notions about how people date.
Going to a dance club is fine, if you're looking for the kind of person
who goes to dance clubs to look for partners. Odds are they're more sexually
active, so sex is likely to come earlier rather than later and not necessarily
be an indication they want a relationship. Drug use is likely to be higher
too. And there's always that "relationships that start in bars, end in bars"
saw. But a good number of people in such places really are looking. Well,
looking to be flirted with and get their mojo on, anyways. If you're willing
to deal with that and to not place too much expectation on whether or not
they're actually seriously looking and move on, then you can find some very
good people.
Something like a coffeeshop is more to my taste; you really get a
chance to find out what someone's like when they open their mouth and actually
speak. But make sure that you're actually awake and witty when you go there,
if that's your mission.
As to strategies, what works, Nike had the right idea. Just ask. If
someone's not interested, they'll let you know. If you don't ask, assume that
it ain't going to happen. There are exceptions, but they're pretty few and
far between. If you can't ask, or can't carry off flirting with someone well
or figuring out a good thing to ask someone to join you in doing
spontaneously, find someone who can, and learn how to do it by watching them.
Ignore what people say about dating, and watch what they actually do. Most people don't seem to be conscious of what they're doing, if they're doing anything at all, and if you ask them they'll give you a confusing piece of what they're willing to admit of what they're conscious of, which often That's actually a useful strategy most everywhere in life, particularly when involving recurring topics that are essentially public record. Sorry about the formatting.
I am ignoring what you say about formatting, senna, and watching what you actually do.
Tangentially related: Do people actually meet other people at coffeeshops? As an Ann-Arborite born and bred, I've spent my share of time in coffeeshops, and don't think I"ve ever met anyone new that way. People just don't seem to talk to strangers in coffeeshops. Or, at least, not when I'm around.
I don't know. I haven't really met anyone there that I wasn't already going to meet, but I'm not that outgoing of a guy. The difficulty is finding contexts where the intentions are the same.
yha, finding anyone worth talking to if you'r enot some sore of cafe pimp daddy (see: jester and other NAC crew)
No, please don't. I think senna hit the nail on the head. Even if I _did_ regularly strike up coffee-shop conversations with strangers, and even if they were well-recieved, I doubt I'd get any dates out of it. Nobody goes to coffeeshops to cruise, so cruising at a coffeeshop isn't worthwhile, which is why nobody does it. Vicious cycle.
Sometimes I'll spot someone reading an interesting book, and I'll comment on it, but my intentions aren't to "cruise".
Cafes and coffee shops never appeared to be like that to me, either. *however* I suppose it would depend on the place. I used to go to a place called Pangea in Walla Walla when I attended Whitman. People did all sorts of things there. It was generally blaring music, so not many people were reading. Some would play board games. Then there was the drum jam night-- bring your own drum or use one of the house perc's. I had fun at one of those jams and I guess someone noticed I was quite confidently doing so because she came up and said so, in an admiring, perhaps flirty way. Mind you, the opportunity wasn't at the place itself, but-- you never know. I suppose, then, it could be worth it to invest time in places that sponsor open mic nights for music, poetry, etc. and you might get a few fans that will ask you to sing a little "Amore." ;)
Re: #119
Yes, they do, but ironically, Ann Arbor is a horrible place to do it.
The further out you go, the more willing people are to start conversations
with strangers, or invite people they don't know all that well to do things
with them. Ypsilanti and Saline both have thriving coffeeshop communities,
and it's the same way further downriver.
Re: #122
Nobody goes to coffeeshops to cruise - my point exactly. There are
a lot of really wonderful people out there who *never* go to a place with the
intention of trying to pick someone up, and they're generally saner and more
desirable as a rule. If nothing else you know that they're not serial
monogamists who find it easier to pick someone new up than to maintain their
existing relationships.
It's a completely different ballgame, meeting, spending time with, and
occasionally dating people who aren't actively looking. You have to have a
different attitude about things - you have to be looking for a good time out
first, and a date second - but you get a good chance to get to know someone,
and to see how they interact with people around them, and that's proved very
valuable to me.
All things considered, I have probably a dozen close friends whom I've
met through coffeeshops, and at least three times that number of casual
acquaintances, and at least three long-term relationships have come out of
that, not counting the one I met at a coffeeshop at a GREX-sponsored event.
;)
i'm glad to hear it gets better out of ann arbor. i greet this principle on faith because i've been stuck in this swamp for too long.
"Just too many goddamned HIVs."
"HIVS?"
"Yeah, Hippies In Volvos."
"Quarterbacks, you mean?"
"Wuarterbacks?"
"Yeah, they fake left and go right ..."
resp:125 right-- you go to have a good time, first.. get a feel for the scene. Personally, I would think that's a better way to go.
RE 126; year later, and leland is running round the country no-one knows where.
leland has disappeared?
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ya i see now he was logged on the 5th last ..
Where's Leland?
is leland and lelande the same person?
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I'm mentally kicking myself. While I have successfully got the woman I like into my car twice, I have not yet actually suggested a date.
don't worry, it'll happen:)
Hrm. If we were speaking French, lelande would be leland's female alter ego.
Well, my next likely chance to suggest a date to my woman friend comes not much later this evening.
Don't give yourself time to hesitate. Next time, either ask within
fifteen seconds, or walk away from it forever.
So the attempt did end in failure, but that doesn't mean that it's going to ruin a normal friendship.
If you look at it the right way, everything outside of really pissing
someone off is a success of one degree or another. Having an attractive
female drinking buddy or partner in crime is great "social proof". Just don't
overdo it and have 4 or 5 of them at once, or people will mistake you for
family.
Well, the good points, she is a friend who has some similiar interests. She's called me sweet. She can help me when I have trouble acting out or remembering the coregraphy of Ring fights.
A word of advice about having a lesbian partner-in-crime, if any of
the straight guys out there are considering it. It gets tricky when you
find out the girl you're both interested in is bi-.
heh;) that sounds like a whole heap of trouble ready to come down like a smiting
Quote from last week:
"Oh that'd be an interesting three-way."
(looks around, counts four people on couch) "Uhm ... you can't
count."
"Smartass." (hits me with pillow)
OK, so it was about sparring, but still. :P
I guess people aren't quite as fickle as I thought. While I failed in an attempt to get a date with Amy, it didn't ruin the friendship. Suppose friendship should come before courtship.
I think it's building on stability, myself.
That depends. It's different, hooking up with someone who you've been
friends with because neither of you had the time for anything more, or were
both involved, and trying to hook up with someone who initially said "let's
just be friends."
Time will tell, but for the moment, I'll keep things cool. I also changed my mind about going to seek someone else already, after all, I don't want to be seen as fickle either.
I just realised my FN in this conference comes from a little innuendo
that someone made to me six or seven years ago. Whoa.
thank you kenau:) otoh it can be quite satisfying once you finnaly land them
Well, right now, I'm confused. Then again, I haven't spent much time with women except as friends. Now that the desire to procreate has kicked in . . . Granted, I have lots of things I need to get done before I plan on having kids.
Just don't explain it that way ...
re #151 Don't worry, you're not old, and it's all okay. :)
You have several choices: