Grex Scifi Conference

Item 55: Definition of Star Wars canon.

Entered by solo on Tue Mar 7 17:44:51 1995:

24 new of 50 responses total.


#27 of 50 by dbratman on Tue May 1 05:02:23 2001:

resp:22 - are the novels set after "Return of the Jedi" part of a 
consistent storyline?  If so, what happens to Luke?  Does he indeed 
fall into the Dark Side?


#28 of 50 by ashke on Tue May 1 06:30:57 2001:

Actually, yes they are.  If I remember correctly, He does not, he actually
finds more Jedi, trains, and starts a Jedi school.  Han and Leah have twins,
names both start with J and I don't remember them at this time, a boy and a
girl, and some relative of Chewy is ALSO in the Jedi school.

And yeah, the Emperor comes back in another cloned body, there were BIG
debates about if he could do that, but apparently he could.  


#29 of 50 by albaugh on Tue May 1 17:32:22 2001:

Well if the emporer could, what about Anakin, Kenobi, Yoda, etc.?


#30 of 50 by tpryan on Tue May 1 22:10:03 2001:

        Probably could, but he may be happy to be Kenobi the freindly ghost.


#31 of 50 by dbratman on Wed May 2 00:38:44 2001:

The Emperor comes back?  After that gory finish?  Plastic bouncing 
clowns, like I said.

Surely, if this is possible, then Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, 
master of the Dark Side of the Force, should have known how pointless 
his disposal of the Emperor would be before he performed it.

But then, I don't buy half the stuff in "Phantom Menace" either.


#32 of 50 by janc on Wed May 2 02:19:21 2001:

Well, the Emperor apparantly doesn't bounce back any too easily.  He's out
of commision for a long time.  Even if Vader knew this was possible (not
obvious that he would), he might consider buying Lucas a couple decades to
mature before the Emperor could have another whack at him a fair deal.

I don't think Vader was a master of the Dark Side of the Force.  I think he
was a slave of the Dark Side of the Force.

Anakin, Kenobi, and Yoda don't have clone bodies.  But it does seem clear that
at least some Jedi are able to maintain some sort of spectral existance after
death.  Mostly it seems to be the more contemplative types who do so.  Kenobi
and Yoda both die voluntarily with their bodies vanishing after death.  Anakin
makes a spectral appearance, but I'm guessing he needed help from Kenobi and
Yoda to do that.  "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you
can imagine," or something like that says Kenobi before he lets Vader kill
him.  There is no evidence in the movie that his power extends to more than
giving Luke posthumorous advice, but presumably there is more to it.  Yoda
and Kenobi had each been sitting around alone for a few decades doing nothing
while the Empire takes over the universe.  Presumably they weren't really
doing nothing, but were in some way preparing to go into ghost mode and do
some really impressive stuff.  All the other Jedi, good and bad, leave
corpses.  Hard to tell if the Emperor did.  Apparantly not.


#33 of 50 by ashke on Wed May 2 03:53:38 2001:

If I understand correctly, there is something in the way they're bound to the
force, the midiclorian count, and the total power of the jedi if they
dissapear after they die.  They're tied into the force so tight that their
body ends up being absorbed by the force, hence the astral projections.  Vader
woudln't have known about the clones, because being the only one of the Sith
to survive the original parting of the "good" jedi and the "bad" jedi, the
Emperor decided that the less the subordinant knows, the less likly they are
to rebel against you.

For those who don't know the parting, here it goes:  One Jedi found the power
of the darkside and when he was told that he couldn't use the dark powers by
the jedi council, he wanted to know why, if there is balance in everything,
then there should be balance in themselves as well.  They forbid it, and he
ended up leacing to practice the dark arts, and many jedi followed him.  They
learned the dark force powers, and the time came when he was old and had about
50 followers and he died.  Well, all of the apprentices began fighting over
who was to rule.  All but one.  The Sith ended up killing each other, all but
the one, and the "good" jedi thought that it was over.  Evil kills itself.
But the one had watched and learned and he knew what the error was.  Never
show your pupil everything, and never have more than one.  That way YOU are
in control, and they're dispensible.  So, this one, eventually became
Palpitane and the Emperor, and he trained Maul, and then Vader, and some in
the middle, but that's that point of the Sith.  The cloning is something that
he had a LOT of time to come up with.  And it takes decades to get "into" the
other body.  It's not something that happens instantaneously.

The only reason, to backtrack, that we saw the projections of Anakin, kenobi,
and Yoda, is because they're the only ones that had a connection to Luke. 
But others do fade into the force.  


#34 of 50 by tpryan on Wed May 2 16:19:42 2001:

        I also got the impression that at the end of Return of the Jedi
that Anakin, Kenobi and Yoda where ready for the next place in the
force after watching over Luke (and Leia).  Something they could not
do for a long time.


#35 of 50 by dbratman on Wed May 2 21:19:44 2001:

resp:32 - Vader can be a master and a slave of the Dark Side at the 
same time.  "Master: a person very skilled in some work, profession, 
science, etc."


#36 of 50 by scott on Wed May 2 22:29:26 2001:

In other words, he's a middle manager.  ;)


#37 of 50 by ashke on Thu May 3 01:32:39 2001:

35:  There is one Master, one Apprentice.  Vader was not the master.


#38 of 50 by dbratman on Wed May 9 21:55:30 2001:

Jeez Louise.  I said "master" with a small m, not with a large M.  All 
I meant was that Vader is knowledgable about the Force.  Good grief.  
This is the kind of obnoxious hairsplitting that gives science-fiction 
fans a bad name.

In any case, he said to Obi-Wan, "Now I am the Master."  Maybe he was 
mistaken.


#39 of 50 by ashke on Thu May 10 02:20:12 2001:

he only meant that because Obi-Wan was his master in the good side of the
force, he trained him, and in some thoughts, the only way to truly become a
master is the death of the one who taught you, otherwise you are forever a
student to them.


#40 of 50 by albaugh on Wed May 16 04:24:39 2001:

Just watched Empire Strikes Back last night.  Now recall from the Episode I
novel and movie that the syth fought among each other, killed each other off,
so that "in the end" there were only 2 syth lords existing at once, a master
and an aprentice.  But in ESB (episode 5) Darth Vader and the Emporer are
talking about turning Luke to the dark side, so that he could become a
powerful ally.  Based on past history, that couldn't work.  So the Emporer
should just have had Vader kill Luke to end the threat, since there were
already the 2 syth in place - the Emporer as master, and Vader as apprentice.
I could see Vader secretly plotting - as he proposed to Luke - to have Luke
join him to overthrow the Emporer, thus yielding Vader as master and Luke as
apprentice syth.  But I can't see the Emporer actively supporting trying to
turn Luke to the dark side.

I can only chalk this up to ESB coming out 20+ years before Phantom Menace,
where all this syth stuff got worked out.  :-)


#41 of 50 by ashke on Wed May 16 12:11:55 2001:

But you're forgetting Jedi, and how while the emperor wanted Luke to give in
to his dark side, he wanted him to either kill Vader OR kill the emperor
himself.  He can clone himself again after a time.  Luke was Vader's only
weakness, and by turning him to the darkside there was nothing that could
redeem Anakin/Vader's  good side.


#42 of 50 by madelf on Wed May 16 21:51:07 2001:

Also if Luke had turned and managed to kill Vader they would have been back
to 2, master and aprentice.
If you haven't seen it yet find the Star Wars fan-film Duality for an
interesting look at Sith apprentice training techniques.


#43 of 50 by jep on Sat Jun 30 21:10:24 2001:

The Saga Begins
(Al Yankovic)
To the tune of "American Pie"
From the CD "Running with Scissors"

A long, long time ago
In a galaxy far away
Naboo was under an attack
And I thought me and Qui-Gon Jinn
Could talk the Federation into
Maybe cutting them a little slack
But their response, it didn't thrill us
They locked the doors and tried to kill us
We escaped from that gas
Then met jar Jar and Boss Nass
We took a bongo from the scene
And we went to Theed to see the queen
We all wound up on Tatooine
That's where we found this boy...

Oh my my, this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Saying "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

Did you know this junkyard slave
Isn't even old enough to shave
But he can use the Force, they say
Ahh, do yo usee him hitting on the queen
Though he's just nine and she's fourteen
Yeah, he's probably gonna marry her someday
Well, I know he built C-PO
And I've heard how fast his pod can go
And we were broke, it's true
So we made a wager or two
He was a prepubescent flyin' ace
And the moment Jabba started off that race
Well, I knew who would win first place
Oh yes, it was our boy

We started singin'... My my, this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Saying "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

Now we finally got to Coruscant
The Jedi Council we knew would want
To see how good the boy could be
So we took him there and we told the tale
How his midi-chlorians were off the scale
And he might fill that prophecy
Oh, the council was impresed, of course
Could he bring balance to the Force?
They interviewed the kid
Oh, training they forbid
Because Yoda sensed in him much fear
And Qui-Gon said "Now listen here
Just stick it in your pointy ear
I still will teach this boy"

He was singin'... My my, this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Saying "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

We caught a ride back to Naboo
'Cause Queen Amidala wanted to
I frankly would've liked to stay
We all fought in that epic war
And it wasn't long at all before
Little Hotshot flew his plane and saved the day
And in the end some Gungans died
Some ships blew up and some pilots fried
A lot of folks were croakin'
The battle droids were broken
And the Jedi I admire most
Met up with Darth Maul and now he's toast
Well, I'm still here and he's a ghost
I guess I'll train this boy

And I was singin'... My my, this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Saying "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
We were singin'... My my, this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Saying "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"


#44 of 50 by jep on Sat Jun 30 21:11:57 2001:

I was impressed by how accurately Weird Al told the story of "The 
Phantom Menace", and how much he covered in a song only a few minutes 
long.  He does a pretty nice job, I think.


#45 of 50 by madelf on Sun Jul 1 03:58:12 2001:

A few posts back I mentioned the fan film Duality. Once you watch that watch
Two-Ness. They are both available on www.theforce.net


#46 of 50 by dbratman on Sun Jul 1 15:49:53 2001:

The superior pleasure of listening to this song over actually watching 
the movie is immeasurable.


#47 of 50 by jep on Mon Jul 2 14:56:24 2001:

Now, that's going a bit too far.  It's a nice song, but not at all a bad 
movie.


#48 of 50 by tpryan on Mon Jul 2 16:09:08 2001:

        Okay, "Weird Al" would get a passing grade in his Filking 101
class.  He told the story in the song. That's it.  Frankly, I had a
hard time figureing out who the point of view singer is; Ben does not
know of Anakin's future at this point.  Only us fen and George Lucas
know that.


#49 of 50 by robh on Mon Jul 2 22:49:03 2001:

I may be a seriously geeky SF fan, but even I'm not worried that
the singer of the song (clearly young Kenobi) is referring to
things that won't happen until later movies.  It's just a funny
song, not a dramatic novel...


#50 of 50 by dbratman on Mon Jul 9 07:13:14 2001:

resp:47 - not a bad movie?  Indeed not: that's far too mild.  It's one 
of the two or three very worst films I've ever watched all the way 
through, ghod knows why I bothered.


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