Grex Science Conference

Item 43: Short questions.

Entered by keesan on Wed Dec 23 19:57:58 1998:

65 new of 98 responses total.


#34 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Oct 26 04:44:21 1999:

ZnCl2. It is ionized in solution. Whether a metal reacts with acid to
produce hydrogen depends upon its position with respect to hydrogen in the
"electromotive servies". Zn is "above" H2; Copper is below. You can force
copper to react, though, by changing the conditions.  (Sorry for all the
typos in #32: an effect of sleep deprivation.) 



#35 of 98 by drew on Tue Oct 26 19:57:25 1999:

The way I heard it, you don't get H+ ions. Instead you end up with H3O+ ions,
with that loose proton attaching itself to a water molecule.


#36 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Oct 26 23:03:10 1999:

That is true to various degrees to all ions in solution, since the ions
are charged, and water is polar. 


#37 of 98 by oddie on Fri Nov 5 05:14:34 1999:

You're right Andrew.  I reread the chapter in the chem textbook on acids and
bases last night. Wouldn't the third bond on H30+ be weaker than the original
bonds forming H2), though? What is the charge difference between the ends
of a water molecule?

I have been trying to figure out the chemical formula of isopropyl alcohol,
the stuff sometimes sold as "rubbing alcohol." An alcohol has a formula
of the form R-0H, says the textbook, and propane is a 3-carbon hydrocarbon
so my guess is this:

 | | |
-C-C-C-OH
 | | |

What does "iso" (Latin for "the same," is all I know) mean in this context?
Could you have an alcohol based on an alkene, alkyne or even a benzene
ring, rather than an alkane?


#38 of 98 by russ on Fri Nov 5 21:08:38 1999:

Isopropyl has the -OH on the middle carbon, I believe.


#39 of 98 by oddie on Sat Nov 6 05:59:59 1999:

Asked my chem teacher about isopropyl alcohol today. He says that the "iso"
is sort of a leftover from an older system of naming, and indicates that
the molecule is symmetrical. It does indeed have the hydroxyl on the middle
carbon, so its proper name is 2-propanol.


#40 of 98 by rcurl on Sat Nov 6 06:33:29 1999:

..and #37 is 1-propanol (old name: normal or n-propanol). 

There is no specific *charge* difference between the + and - "ends" of
a water molecule. However the water molecule has a dipole moment of
1.87E-18 e.s.u. (you asked...).


#41 of 98 by oddie on Mon Nov 8 04:36:59 1999:

You're right, I did :) Textbook descriptions usually say that water has
a slight charge on either end, without giving any quantitative description
of the actual magnitude of the difference, and I had assumed that it was
possible to describe the different distributions of charge in the units
of charge itself. I now know better...

You know, I might still be wrong about the isopropyl structure.  I think it
might actually be the case that the middle carbon of the propyl chain
has a -C-OH (methanol) group bonded to it; the reasoning behind the name
would be that either side of the symmetrical molecule "looks" like a
propanol chain. I'm not sure how to name such a compound under IUPAC
rules, however; maybe 2-methanol-propane??

 | | |
-C-C-C-
 | | | 
  -C-
   |
   OH


#42 of 98 by rcurl on Mon Nov 8 06:24:42 1999:

It is 2-methyl-1-propanol. It is, of course, a *butanol*, but there are so
many isomers of butanol that common names are available for only a few. 
It could also be called 1,1-dimethyl ethanol, but the naming convention
calls for the largest simply identifiable radical to be the basis of the
name. 


#43 of 98 by oddie on Tue Nov 9 04:53:28 1999:

Thankyou Rane, Russ, and Andrew (& anyone else whose name I've forgotten)
for your answers. Now I will have to think of some more questions. (:


#44 of 98 by srw on Sun Nov 28 19:36:58 1999:

Hmm. I would have guessed that there were only 4 isomers of butanol.
I was thinking of two different places for the OH on a straight butane, 
and two different places for an OH on an isobutane. That doesn't seem 
like so many to have common names, but maybe it is. 

The conventional names (I suspect) are:
1-butanol
2-butanol
2-methyl-1-propanol (our friend), and
2-methyl-2-propanol

As far as I can tell, none of these 4 have stereoisomers.


#45 of 98 by rcurl on Sun Nov 28 22:27:30 1999:

Four is "too many" (you know, one, two, three, infinity...). Three have
common names; normal (n-), secondary (sec-) and tertiary (t-) butyl
alcohols. "Our friend"  has no common name. 2-butanol has a stereoisomer
since the 2- carbon has four different groups attached. They are
d-2-methanol, and l-2-methanol (and of course the racemic mixture). 



#46 of 98 by srw on Mon Nov 29 20:54:08 1999:

Ok - I'll accept that four us too many. It sounded like more somehow.
Ah - yes I missed the 2-butanol stereoisomer. thx


#47 of 98 by orinoco on Tue Nov 30 00:54:49 1999:

If dehydration is a Bad Thing, then why does the body excrete more water, the
more it takes in?  Is there any survival value to this, or is it just a side
effect of how the relevant systems work, or what?


#48 of 98 by i on Tue Nov 30 01:12:53 1999:

Excess water is also a Bad Thing - the body's got to get rid of it.


#49 of 98 by orinoco on Tue Nov 30 02:29:34 1999:

Ah, okay.  


#50 of 98 by russ on Tue Nov 30 05:48:29 1999:

(Lots of things in the body, like nerves and muscles, depend on the
ion concentrations of the blood and other fluids being within certain
limits.  Too much water thins them out, and stuff starts malfunctioning.
This is bad, because you don't live too long if your nerves quit on you.)


#51 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Nov 30 06:52:26 1999:

It is nice, though, that the body goes to the trouble of absorbing extra
water and excreting it through a more convenient orifice, rather than just
not absorbing it. 



#52 of 98 by orinoco on Tue Nov 30 18:59:41 1999:

Nice why?


#53 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Nov 30 19:53:29 1999:

Think. 


#54 of 98 by orinoco on Tue Nov 30 22:51:16 1999:

I don't, remember?  It's in my handle. :)


#55 of 98 by russ on Wed Dec 1 04:17:00 1999:

Maybe if you'd go to the trouble of absorbing and conveniently excreting
your text, you wouldn't have this keyboard diarrhea. ;-)


#56 of 98 by keesan on Mon Dec 6 15:51:09 1999:

The human digestive system is open at both ends (mouth and anus).  If water
went in one end and were not absorbed where would it come out?  Orinoco, I
think you would enjoy a first-year biology class even if not required.
(I am afraid I don't get the joke in 55.)


#57 of 98 by orinoco on Mon Dec 6 16:16:05 1999:

Russ' remark made the situation clear enough, but thanks anyway keesan...


#58 of 98 by russ on Tue Dec 7 03:32:58 1999:

It was an attempt at humor on response 51.


#59 of 98 by oddie on Fri Jan 28 04:53:27 2000:

We are doing genetics in biology at the moment, and so I was wondering:
broadly speaking, how is eye color controlled in humans? Is there more
than one gene affecting it, more than one allele, or what?

We are doing sex-linked genes at the moment. Genetics is fascinating.


#60 of 98 by keesan on Wed Feb 2 02:20:34 2000:

Two genes for brown eyes make brown eyes.  Two genes for blue eyes make blue
eyes.  One of each gives you hazel/green/light brown eyes.  There are probably
several alleles of the brown-eye gene for different amounts of pigment.  Don't
know if more than one gene is involved.  But two blue eyed parents will not
produce a brown eyed child, though two brown-eyes can produce blue, as the
blue acts recessive.


#61 of 98 by oddie on Wed Feb 2 04:55:51 2000:

I'm not sure I understand--two "genes" for brown eyes make brown eyes, or
two alleles? In biology class we did one problem where the premise was
that there was one gene for eye color and the brown allele was dominant
over blue, but Mr. Stanley told me that this was a simplified view.
THis hypothesis explains why children of brown-eyed parents can be blue-eyed
(if both parents are heterozygous then both can pass down the recessive
blue allele) but says nothing about other colors.
If there is more than one version of the brown-eyed allele, perhaps there
is one "strong" version, fully dominant over blue-eyes, and a "weak" version
that is codominant with blue eyes?
I could look it up in the big blue tome at school entitled "Mendelian 
Inheritance in Man" but I suspect any references there would be a bit too
technical for me...


#62 of 98 by tpryan on Thu Feb 3 01:47:56 2000:

        My two hazel eyed parents had eight hazel eyed kids.


#63 of 98 by russ on Thu Feb 3 04:44:55 2000:

My two blue-eyed parents had one hazel-eyed kid, and two blue-eyed.


#64 of 98 by keesan on Fri Feb 4 13:33:28 2000:

I did a search on 'eye color' with AltaVista.  From the first source:


Reliable Answers on Eye Color by the MIT Guy 1

   By JJ Brannon
   
   [1]jjbrannon@aol.com
     _________________________________________________________________
   
I was a student of Salvador Luria [Nobel Laureate for Genetics] at MIT.
 Two brown-eyed parents can easily have a blue eyed child.
 Two completely blue-eyed parents CANNOT have a fully brown-eyed child with
 normal eye development except in certain extremely rare circumstances.
 The gene for brown/blue eyes is EYCL3 found on Chromosome 15.
 The gene for green/blue eyes is EYCL1 found on Chromosome 19.
 Brown is the result of melanin deposits in the iris.
 Green is the result of [this is debated] lipochrome deposits in the iris.
 Blue-grey [and in some albinism, pink] is due to a lack of pigment in the iris
.
 The underlayer, called the stroma, reflects light through its cells like
 a mirror's silver back. How the pigment is distributed over the iris involves
 other genes which produce flecks, rays, rings, partial diffusion or
 full diffusion. This inheritance is very complicated and the genes have not
 been well identified.
 Here are some reliable sources:
 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Omim/dispmim?227220
 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Omim/dispmim?227240
 http://www.gdb.org/gdb-bin/genera/genera/hgd/ObjectName/2662023?!sub=0

 Francis Galton -- Davenport & Davenport -- Bryn & Winge -- Lenz -- Hughs
 as discussed in
 Human Genetics, Chapter 5, by Reginald Ruggles Gate [1952]
 Heredity & Your Life, pp. 286-312, Boyd [1950]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
References

   1. mailto:jjbrannon@aol.com
   2. http://sln2.fi.edu/tfi/units/life/forums/anatomy/anatomy.html



#65 of 98 by prp on Fri Feb 4 20:16:54 2000:

I was reading about the Apple Airport.  It said among other things that
the card had a power output of x.x dBm.  What is a dBm?


#66 of 98 by russ on Fri Feb 4 22:54:42 2000:

dBm is decibels relative to a milliwatt.  10 milliwatts = +10 dBm.
One microwatt = -30 dBm.  (Decibels are a logarithmic scale, 10 dB
is a factor of ten.  One dB is about 1.26.)


#67 of 98 by rcurl on Sat Feb 5 05:17:47 2000:

i.e., dB = 10*log(P2/P1), where log is base 10 and P2 and P1 are
two *powers* that you want to relate. A useful value to remember is
3 dB = close to a power ratio of 2. Some people try to apply dB to
voltage or current, but then one has to use dB = 20*log (E2/E1).
A related (and commonly used in control theory) terms is the dL -
the decilog, which is simply dL = 10*log(X2/X1) are two similar
quantities whose ratio you want to express over a large range. 


#68 of 98 by oddie on Mon Feb 7 05:10:45 2000:

resp:64
Thank you very much Keesan. I will also have a look at those sources.


#69 of 98 by prp on Mon Feb 7 19:55:40 2000:

Ah, now if it had been dBmW, I might have had a chance of figuring 
it out.


#70 of 98 by russ on Tue Feb 8 03:50:49 2000:

Every profession has its shorthand.  dBm is almost certainly in lots
of glossaries, so if you'd looked you probably would have found it.


#71 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Feb 8 05:34:11 2000:

I think it is easier to ask in a conference devoted to such things.
Isn't that one of the purposes they serve? 


#72 of 98 by russ on Wed Feb 9 03:03:22 2000:

Never said it wasn't, but learning to RTFM is also important.


#73 of 98 by rcurl on Wed Feb 9 06:45:39 2000:

That requires having the FM.


#74 of 98 by keesan on Sun Oct 29 22:22:14 2000:

What happens to oil (alkyd) paint at 30 degrees F, if anything?  (Jim left
our primer out last night, sitting on a warmed concrete slab, so it may not
have gone quite to freezing).  Why should you not apply it below 45 degrees?


#75 of 98 by rcurl on Sun Oct 29 22:56:45 2000:

It doesn't cure rapidly, meanwhile picking up dust (and leaves).


#76 of 98 by keesan on Mon Oct 30 17:18:42 2000:

We will not worry then, as the porch warms up rapidly the next morning and
these boards are only being painted to act as a vapor barrier, and the plastic
on the porch should keep out the dust and leaves.


#77 of 98 by oddie on Sat Nov 25 07:21:11 2000:

This was asked in the agora item on candy, retailing and suchlike, but
to prevent drift I'll repeat it here:
Why are saturated fats solid but unsaturated fats liquid (in general)?
My recollection from chem class is that dispersion forces are greater
for some reason in straight carbon chains, but I haven't a chemistry
book on hand at the moment so I can't check this.

On a possibly related note, what happens to butter when one melts it
and then allows it to cool again? It changes color and texture, but
why, chemically?


#78 of 98 by keesan on Sat Nov 25 18:38:39 2000:

Heating butter and cooling it separates a layer of fat (on top) from a layer
of other things that dissolve in water and reflect more light.  The top layer
is what Indians call ghee.  It is less likely to burn than the dissolved or
suspended matter, and it keeps longer since many microorganisms cannot live
in pure fat (they need water and minerals and oxygen, which is blocked by the
fat).  One method of preserving foods is to pour melted lard or butter or
olive oil into the top of the jar of hot food.  You can bake the whole thing
in the oven for a while to sterilize it.


#79 of 98 by rcurl on Mon Nov 27 06:42:59 2000:

Unsaturated fats have a lower melting point than saturated fats, in
general, for the same carbon number. Yes, it is because the dispersion
forces are greater for the saturated fats. A mechanical way to look at it
is that the rigidity of the double bonded carbons, which also introduces a
"kink" into the fatty acid, interfers with alignment of the molecules and
hence with crystallization. 



#80 of 98 by oddie on Sun Dec 3 07:16:53 2000:

Thank you both.
I had heard of ghee but never knew what it really was. Today I looked up
hydrocarbons in my chemistry textbook (by someone called Steven Zumdahl,
if anyone's interested) but didn't find anything on b.p. and m.p. (I
suspect I overlooked it, but as I know the answer in about as much detail
as the book would probably give it hardly matters). Thanks again.


#81 of 98 by rcurl on Sun Dec 3 21:55:02 2000:

You probably didn't overlook it - elementary texts usually don't get
into the physics of phase changes except to note they occur, and maybe
some values as melting point is used to identify compounds.


#82 of 98 by keesan on Sun Dec 3 22:15:09 2000:

The best ghee is said to come from water buffaloes.  Water buffaloes are also
found in Kosovo, where there are flat wet areas, and a fermented clotted cream
is made from the milk.  I don't know how the war affected the animals.


#83 of 98 by dannyboy on Thu Nov 8 13:26:00 2001:

As for why saturated fats are generally solid, as opposed to unsaturated ones,
it is basically to do with the shape of them. The straight chain alkanes can
sit together more closely, resulting in higher Van-Der Vaals forces
(instantaneous dipole-induced dipole). There may also be hydrogen bonding
effects which are influenced by the double bonds.


#84 of 98 by keesan on Mon Feb 3 03:44:28 2003:

Jim asks if ozone can pass through steel, as in refrigerator motors.  He heard
that hydrogen can pass through steel.


#85 of 98 by rcurl on Mon Feb 3 07:33:35 2003:

No, ozone cannot pass through steel. Why? There isn't much ozone around.
Yes, hydrogen has dissolve in steel - leading to embrittlement.


#86 of 98 by gull on Mon Feb 3 15:46:25 2003:

Most motors are vented to get rid of heat, though, so ozone can escape
that way if there's any arcing going on.


#87 of 98 by russ on Mon Feb 3 22:40:36 2003:

The question in #84 betrays two misconceptions:

1.)     There's no ozone in a refrigerator's cooling system.
        Refrigerator motors are induction motors, which cannot create
        ozone.  The commutator sparking of brush-type motors makes
        ozone; induction motors have no commutators or brushes.

2.)     The creation of ozone requires free oxygen.  There is
        essentially no oxygen in a refrigerator's system.


#88 of 98 by rcurl on Tue Feb 4 07:13:10 2003:

3.) ozone is very reactive and would have been depleted by reaction
first IF any could have been formed.


#89 of 98 by keesan on Fri Feb 7 01:08:15 2003:

Jim says 'Yes' that answers his question.  Now he wants me to help him set
up a database that will be used to record temperature, humidity, and electric
meter reading at various times of day, week and month, in DOS.  (We are not
very far into Linux yet).  Or maybe it should be a spreadsheet program.  He
wants averages and graphs but also to be able to sort and filter.  Are there
programs that do all this?  I suggested finding programs that will import and
export text-format files (a pair of programs that you can move data between).
He wants to plot and calculate and see how it depends on time of day and
presence of housemates.  Ideas?


#90 of 98 by rcurl on Sun Jan 8 06:48:41 2006:

An hollow metal box that weighs 20 pounds is 1 foot on a side and hence 
has a total (external) volume of 1 cubic foot. It is placed on the bottom 
of a tank and then welded to the bottom completely around all four bottom 
edges. The tank is then filled with water to a depth of two feet. With 
what force is the box pulling upon the floor of the tank because of its 
bouyancy?


#91 of 98 by sholmes on Fri Nov 20 02:29:09 2009:

What is more ecologically damaging- using 2 styrofoam cup daily or using water
and soap to wash a steel cup twice daily ? Similarly are electric cars more
environment friendly, if the electricity used to charge the batteries was
generated by say a coal fired power plant ?


#92 of 98 by keesan on Fri Nov 20 02:48:58 2009:

A coal fired plant is far less polluting than a gasoline engine because you
can clean the fumes at the source with larger and more efficient equipment,
also the fumes are generated away from where people are walking around.
I think electricity generation is also more efficient than gasoline engines
but you do lose something in transmission.


#93 of 98 by rcurl on Fri Nov 20 06:01:47 2009:

Re #90: No one has been able to solve that problem in over 3.5 years?!

Re #91: Sindi is right about electricity. Its generation in a combined 
cycle gas turbine (CCGT) plant is ca. 60% efficient, nearly twice that 
of internal combustion engines. Also, it is more environmentally 
friendly using natural gas.


#94 of 98 by keesan on Fri Nov 20 16:47:58 2009:

Cars can also run on natural gas, which is less polluting.


#95 of 98 by rcurl on Fri Nov 20 21:12:05 2009:

If you can find a natural gas station....


#96 of 98 by keesan on Fri Nov 20 21:40:45 2009:

On Hiscock St. near the garbage yard.


#97 of 98 by rcurl on Sat Nov 21 06:23:48 2009:

Where else?

"Natural gas rises as viable fuel, but lack of infrastructure could 
prevent use in consumer vehicles"

"Michigan has 13 compressed NG stations open to the public."

http://is.gd/50aKG


#98 of 98 by tod on Fri Jan 1 00:03:31 2010:

I wonder how much acid rain would be welcome if it meant more ozone


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