Grex Radio Conference

Item 2: Digital radio broadcasting

Entered by keesan on Sat Feb 14 01:27:37 1998:

72 new of 210 responses total.


#139 of 210 by keesan on Tue Apr 18 16:39:57 2000:

Is this 'buffering' and 'network congestion'?  We will try with 16M RAM
and the old version of RealAudio that came with bruin's computer when he gave
it to me.


#140 of 210 by rcurl on Tue Apr 18 18:28:36 2000:

It is 'buffering', done because of 'network congestion'. Incidentally,
the packets may (will) arrive out of order normally, because of the
processes for maximizing network capacity by continually rerouting them. 
So you can get hung up because just one packet went "round the barn".


#141 of 210 by keesan on Fri Apr 28 16:37:31 2000:

I have been trying out RealAudio Player 3 and 4 for Win31.  As promised, 3
works with 8M RAM and 4 with 16M.  But most of the sites I try to listen at
say that they require a newer version, or G2, or that they cannot play files
of type vnd.rn-realaudio (and Netscape cannot find a plugin for this).  Would
5.0 do any better?  The later versions are only for Win95 or later.  So far
I have managed to listened to one station from Chile (with a lot of network
congestion but good classical music) and one from the Czech Republic (very
fine quality reception but loud American pop music).  Netradio.com never works
even on our Win96 computer with RealAudio 7 - why?  How many different formats
are being broadcast?  One station offered Windows Media or Realplayer 5 (it
would not do 4).  I am tired of experimenting - has anyone compared 4 and 5?
All RealAudio talks about is improvements in the video.  It works without MS
Video for WIndows if you don't mind frequent messages.  
(4 does not work with 8M RAM, there is a message about bandwidth).


#142 of 210 by keesan on Mon May 1 14:30:54 2000:

RealAudio says to try version 5.0 but did not say whether it will play the
files that 4.0 will not.  They give very short answers.


#143 of 210 by keesan on Thu May 4 14:08:24 2000:

WITR said Version 5 would work, but Real Audio keeps giving me error messages
and crashing Netscape.  I did get WKAR working, very clearly.


#144 of 210 by keesan on Thu May 4 16:57:11 2000:

classicalwebcast.com is a very nice listing of about 50 classical stations
around the world, including Estonia, Korea, and Bulgaria, with clear
indication of whether you need Windows Media Player (for Win95 only), G2
(Win95) or 16K (etc. up to over 50K) mono or stereo.  (WKAR does not need G2
and they listed it as G2).  For my hardware (16M RAM) and software (RealPlayer
5) I have had the best luck with lower fidelity mono broadcasts (found one 8K,
many 15 or 16K and 20K).  Seattle KING works but with a lot of gaps in the
sound while buffering.  More RAM would probably fix this.  Clicking on 16K
mono takes you right to the broadcast, or you can click on the station name
for its home page.  I got Adelaide Australia (unlistenable quality), tried
to get Radio Bartok (timed out, busy), and crashed on Czech Radio 3, which
is classical, as is Croatian Radio 3. Another time I got Czech Radio 3,
classical, jazz, ethnic, etc., and got some American popular tune of the
forties (is this ethnic?).
We will probably set up one FreeBSD (UNIX) computer with Netscape and
Realaudio for Linux and lots of RAM.  Is there a Windows Media Player for
Linux?  (Is there a RealAudio for Linux?)
People have been complaining recently that my phone is busy all day.


#145 of 210 by keesan on Sat May 6 23:40:56 2000:

Peter Ribbens, who runs this site, tells me that WKAR broadcasts FM in G2 and
AM in something that I can hear with version 5.  That explains why it was all
talk.  Some of the file compression and other messages may result from my
using Win31 and not Win95, rather than dependent on the version of RealPlayer.


#146 of 210 by dbratman on Mon May 8 23:53:43 2000:

I have yet to try listening to radio on the web.  After reading the 
account of sound quality in post #144, I feel disinclined to try.


#147 of 210 by keesan on Sun May 21 12:49:54 2000:

Some stations have much better quality than others, and the statistics for
them reveal 100% of the signal was received either when due, or soon enough
afterwarsd for buffering to make up for that.  The really bad ones lose what
sounds like 50%.  Probably listening to stations that broadcast at rates more
than 20K, with a modem faster than 28K, would improve overall quality.  Many
of the stations broadcast at two or more rates, for people with modems or
direct connects (up to 128K), in mono or stereo.


#148 of 210 by keesan on Sun May 21 12:53:00 2000:

RealPlayer 7 basic is available for Win 95 or later, Mac 8, Solaris 2.6, or
Linux 2.0.  Does Linux come with a free dialer, or are there shareware dialers
for it?  Not much point in trying to listen with Win31/Shiva.


#149 of 210 by scott on Sun May 21 14:35:34 2000:

Linux does indeed include a dialer.  

(Linux doesn't have networking as an add-on like DOS and Win 3x.  It's all
part of the basic package)


#150 of 210 by krj on Wed Jun 7 16:11:04 2000:

Salon today has an overview article of the Internet radio scene, which they 
think is getting ready to explode in popularity:
 
http://salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/06/internet_radio/index.html
 
One little bit from the article: New Orleans jazz station WWOZ says it 
now has 50,000 online listeners to go with its 50,000 over-the-air
listeners, and it is getting 10-15% of its financial contributions from 
outside its broadcast area.
 


#151 of 210 by jmsaul on Sun Jul 2 14:54:34 2000:

There are now some 2500 stations listed on real.com's "Radio Tuner" website,
and quality is very good (for broadcast radio with a reasonable-quality tuner;
it isn't up there with my rooftop antenna and Linn Kudos tuner) most of the
time in experience.  Sometimes "Net Congestion" interferes with a specific
station at a specific time, so I just go to another one.

(I'm using a PowerMac 8600/300 and single-channel ISDN, for comparison
purposes.)

(Should we move the Internet radio part of this discussion to its own item?)


#152 of 210 by keesan on Mon Jul 3 14:53:51 2000:

Sure, start another item if you think there is enough more to say about it.


#153 of 210 by bmoran on Sun Jul 9 21:31:21 2000:

Hey, move it to the 'radio' .cf


#154 of 210 by bmoran on Sun Jul 9 21:54:51 2000:

OOPs, it's already there.


#155 of 210 by krj on Wed Aug 9 17:35:38 2000:

http://www.inside.com today offers a nice story on the two competing 
satellite radio systems, Sirius and XM, which are rapidly moving towards
market.  These will be subscription services for about $10/month,
intended for car drivers.   They plan to distinguish themselves
through the personalities of their DJs.  Sirius plans to recruit
serious and knowledgable people; XM plans to recruit wacky lunatics.
 
XM's plans are driven by Lee Abrams, "a radio legend credited with 
inventing every calcified format in existence -- album and classic
rock, urban contemporary, smooth jazz, Howard Stern."
 
No mention of classical music -- sorry Sindi -- but each service is 
supposed to have 50 channels so maybe a classical service will be 
tossed in.
 
http://www.inside.com/story/Story_Cached/0,2770,7859_9,00.html


#156 of 210 by keesan on Thu Aug 10 19:34:16 2000:

Lynx will not let me view this site.


#157 of 210 by keesan on Wed Nov 8 21:14:39 2000:

What is streaming MP3?  Is it the same as RealAudio?  If not, is anyone
broadcasting it and how would one listen to it?  What minimum modem speed
would be needed?  At 33K, it took me a lot longer to download a 1M MP3 file
than to listen to it, but I don't recall the ratio.


#158 of 210 by other on Wed Nov 8 21:26:48 2000:

Streaming in general is a technology better served by a connection which 
is fast enough to download data faster than the data can be handled and 
played back to you.  A 33k dial-up connection is not likely to make for a 
worthwhile experience of streaming mp3.


#159 of 210 by micklpkl on Thu Nov 9 01:04:14 2000:

Streaming MP3s are, I believe, Shoutcast streams
http://www.shoutcast.com
(although M$ is doing something similiar in another format)
It is different from RealAudio in several ways, from what I understand. I
admit to being self-taught in computer audio. RealAudio is another proprietary
format, and although popular, still requires specialized encoding and server
software. Shoutcast and streaming mp3s are making this quite a bit easier.
I've been listening to several different "homegrown" streams lately. I do this
by pointing WinAMP (not sure about cross-platform availability) to the URL
for the stream. Granted, for full, deep, stereo sound a broadband connection
is a definite must, but, as with mp3s themselves, the encoding parameters of
the music determines the bandwidth required. For example, at work where I am
stuck with a 56K dialup connection, I can listen to my favourite Celtic music
stream, but only because the "D.J." encoded his music at a low bitrate
suitable for dialup streaming. Most decent mp3s are encoded at a bitrate of
128 or 160 Kbps, with theoretically would require at least ISDN for decent
streaming.

I hope that helps. Again, I'm no expert; YMMV


#160 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 9 15:54:05 2000:

Are any MP3s encoded at 28K? (mono)  Some RealAudio broadcasts are.


#161 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 9 16:02:11 2000:

Looked at that site.  They offer a choice of players for Windows (Winamp),
Mac, or Linux/X.  Any chance that a DOS MP3 player could be made to work (QV,
DOSAMP)?  I looked up classical broadcasts, of which there are 18 (most are
mixed with jazz or other things), and the bitrates are listed as 128 (very
few), 56, 32, 24, 20 (Moscow) and even 18.  Presumably a 33K modem could
handle up to 32 (with some gaps).  


#162 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 9 16:05:40 2000:

Winamp requires Win95 or later.  Hopefully Arachne or Newdeal will come up
with some DOS-based way to hear streaming MP3.  Does this sound any better
than RealAudio at the same modem speed?


#163 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 9 16:15:26 2000:

www.mpeg.org/mpeg/mpeg-audio-player.html  has lots of links to mp3 info,
including one to players for most operating systems - 3 players for DOS, some
for OS/2, BeOS, Solaris, etc.  I might experiment with streaming MP3 and
Win31/Netscape.  Can't be any worse than RealAudio.  Shoutcast seemed to be
implying that only their WinAMP for Win95 would work.


#164 of 210 by krj on Mon Nov 13 17:49:41 2000:

My gut feeling is that no streaming system is going to sound particularly
good after it's run through a modem-speed connection, even a 56K one.


#165 of 210 by keesan on Tue Nov 14 03:04:39 2000:

How much worse would the best streaming audio sound at 56K than the Toledo
classical station as heard in Ann Arbor, 60 miles away?


#166 of 210 by krj on Tue Nov 14 18:36:39 2000:

Yeetch.  Tough call, as the damage being done to the sound is different
in the two transmissions.  Streaming is going to sound tinny, sort of 
like AM radio, with dropouts.  The FM signal from Toledo, particularly
in the daytime, is going to have that nasty hash/static noise.
Name your poison, I guess.


#167 of 210 by keesan on Wed Nov 15 22:09:41 2000:

Since Toledo is at many times of the day and week the only classical station
hearable in Ann Arbor, and at some times there are no classical broadcasts
at all (6-6:30 pm) even a tinny internet broadcast would be welcome.  Toledo
is not as bad in mono - I almost never try to listen to classical music on
the radio in stereo as we have no classical stations close enough.  


#168 of 210 by gelinas on Thu Nov 16 03:16:16 2000:

WKAR is often classical, and usually hearable.  The only place I regular
lose it is on Packard at State.


#169 of 210 by scott on Thu Nov 16 13:39:28 2000:

WKAR is mostly talk these days.  They do pipe in classical at night, I think
around 8pm is when they change from talk to music.


#170 of 210 by rcurl on Thu Nov 16 16:23:10 2000:

It is? I get mostly classical during the day (though I listen infrequently
- only when driving).


#171 of 210 by gelinas on Thu Nov 16 16:42:37 2000:

WUOM *used* to be classical and is *now* mostly talk.  WKAR is still classical
when I switch to it, which is less often.  I usually listen to WEMU, but
lately I've been tuning W4 Country whenever WEMU is not broadcasting news.
WKAR is the fall back when I can't stand any more jazz or twang.


#172 of 210 by scott on Thu Nov 16 16:47:42 2000:

Oops, right.  I confused WKAR and WUOM.


#173 of 210 by krj on Thu Nov 16 16:47:56 2000:

Scott's resp:169 sounds like a description of WUOM, not WKAR, before 
WUOM dumped its remaining classical music to run BBC news overnight.
 
WKAR-FM's web schedule says they run classical music from 8am - 4pm,
with hourly news breaks, 7pm-11pm (except for the Friday jazz show),
and then midnight through 5 am.  That's Monday through Friday, the 
weekend schedule packs in all sorts of non-classical stuff like 
"Prairie Home Companion" and the Sunday night folk music shows.


#174 of 210 by krj on Thu Nov 16 16:48:31 2000:

(several responses slipped in.  The price of research.  :) )


#175 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 16 19:05:04 2000:

Re 173 - this is why I was hoping to find some other source of classical music
for 4-7 pm (Toledo comes back around 6:30, Windsor plays a mixture including
some classical from 4-6), for Friday evening, and for Sat. and Sunday.  Toledo
plays more classical Fri-Sun than does WKAR.  Canada is pretty hopeless for
weekends.  I really should not be tying up my phone line, though.  When were
low-power stations going to start using the frequencies not currently used
in an area?  Any updates on digital broadcasting over the air?


#176 of 210 by krj on Thu Nov 16 20:54:19 2000:

There are two subscription services for digital radio from satellites
which are supposed to go live Real Soon Now.  I'm not sure what's holding
up the debut of the services; the last news article I saw talked about 
the radio presenters they were hiring and their differing programming
philosophies.   I thought the services were supposed to be up and 
running this year.   Probably there are delays in getting the receivers
-- mostly car-based -- to market.

I have only heard rumors about vague plans for digital terrestrial
broadcasting in the USA:  the FCC would like to reclaim today's 
FM band by moving everyone to digital systems, similar to the planned 
shift to HDTV for television.  My guess is that we are 5-10 years 
away from any such service.   Canada is supposed to moving forward 
briskly on digital land-based broadcasting.
 
Low power FM broadcasting is mired in political controversy.  
Congress, at the direction of the broadcast industry, is trying to 
pass a law to make the whole plan illegal.  Clinton is vowing to veto
any bill this is slipped into.  I don't know what the next president's
position on this will be.

My suggestion for your gaps: do what I do, tape some broadcasts off 
the net onto any handy cassette recorder and use those tapes to fill up  
the empty time.


#177 of 210 by keesan on Thu Nov 16 22:33:09 2000:

Thanks for the info and predictions.  Regarding taping broadcasts, the quality
is not good enough to bother.  I have an LP collection and am also too lazy
to put a record on, and recording is even more work.  Why is low-powered
broadcasting a political issue?  It seems to be legal in dorms, so why could
someone not, for instance, broadcast at a power that would be heard only
within Ann Arbor city limits, at some frequency not received here?

The Czechs and Dutch have cable radio.  In the Czech dorm the radios got only
one station.  The Dutch pay an annual tax on each non-portable receiver and
I think that, like the BBC, the taxpayers get to vote on what the stations
will play.  There are also rock stations broadcast from ships outside the
legal boundaries of the country.  I would appreciate cable radio that did not
also require paying for cable TV service, and that was not just a random
sequence (computer generated) of CDs, without comment or theme.  


#178 of 210 by gelinas on Fri Nov 17 02:29:02 2000:

It's a political issue because it threatens to take audience away from the
current broadcasters, who have spent money for the privilege of broadcast,
are making money broadcasting, and so have money to give to legislators to
make it a political issue.

Last I heard, those off-shore broadcasters were violating international
treaties on use of the electromagnetic spectrum.  That could easily be
defined as "piracy" and punished accordingly.  (Earlier this evening,
I (re-)read the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the authority to
define piracy.)


#179 of 210 by keesan on Fri Nov 17 23:11:25 2000:

Perhaps permission to broadcast low-power could be given only to stations with
formats not already available in an area, which would appease current
broadcasters.  But I don't see how the current broadcasters have any right
to complain about someone else being allowed to broadcast, when they
themselves have that right and are not paying for it.


#180 of 210 by scott on Fri Nov 17 23:18:10 2000:

Low power broadcasting is actually a rather active topic currently.  The
National Association of Broadcasters is fighting low power licences, claiming
intereference with their signals by amateur equipment.  Advocates for low
power licensing point out that it currently costs several million to get any
kind of broadcast license, since all the currently allowable high power
licenses are already owned.


#181 of 210 by keesan on Sat Nov 18 01:54:56 2000:

Is the AM band considered to be full?  There used to be several AM classical
stations in the Detroit area.   (I was wrong about Friday night, Canada is
currently broadcasting Mahler and Beethoven, and Toledo something that might
be considered classical.  Why does WKAR switch to jazz on Friday evenings?)


#182 of 210 by krj on Mon Nov 20 14:40:21 2000:

In general, broadcasters are losing interest in the AM band.
Most listeners seem to reject AM for music listening; almost all AM 
stations are now used for programs of people talking.
Most AM stations have gone to the cheapest possible programming, 
nationally syndicated talk shows.
What little music survives on AM seems to be mostly either swing-era pop,
or ethnic music aimed at immigrant communities.  
 
For a while, WJR was playing Detroit Symphony shows on weekend evenings
after the Detroit commercial classical station folded.  But that seems 
to have stopped; there is no mention of it on WJR's web site.
 
MSU's NPR station WKAR plays an evening of jazz for the same reason 
they play an evening of folk music; they feel a responsibility to cover 
some musical fields which have no commercial presence on the dial in 
Lansing.  The underlying problem is that there is only one noncommercial
channel in the market, but there are lots more noncommercial types of 
music needing an outlet; this is the problem that we're hoping 
some sort of digital radio system will solve.


#183 of 210 by oddie on Mon Nov 20 20:54:22 2000:

A few months ago Boulder/Denver's NPR classical station was bought out 
(or taken over somehow, I don't remember all the details) and
the classical programming forced to move to an AM station. It was rather
a shock to hear exactly the same stuff in a lower quality medium. I don't
know, but I think they've obtained another FM station more recently.


#184 of 210 by dbratman on Tue Nov 21 16:57:40 2000:

There is - or was, last time I was in its receiving range in the 
daytime, which isn't often - an AM-only classical station in San 
Francisco, but that's because they sold the FM outlet, closed 
themselves down, and then changed their minds and restarted on the AM 
station they still had.

I was very impressed with WGUC when I visited Cincinnati, so that's the 
classical station I usually listen to when I want a web broadcast.  I'm 
sure there are other good ones, but one at a time is enough for me.

I actually prefer listening to music than voices on the web, and not 
just because they only place I like to listen to radio talk is in the 
car, where I have no web capacity.  To my ear, voices tend to break up 
very audibly, while music is not so obviously low-fidelity.  But I may 
just have a bad ear.


#185 of 210 by orinoco on Tue Nov 21 17:35:35 2000:

...or a differently sensitive ear.  Some people seem to be very well attuned
to the sound of peoples' voices, others to musical sounds, others to
mechanical sounds, etc.  


#186 of 210 by keesan on Tue Nov 21 19:58:27 2000:

So why is UofM wasting its FM capabilities on talk?
BigNet (formerly MichCom) is now selling DSL lines for $10 more than the cost
of a phone line plus ISP service (if you contract for 2 years).  This might
be the solution - fast connection that does not tie up the phone line and has
no dependence on a flaky Shiva dialler (which RealAudio said is what the
problem was when I kept disconnecting while trying to listen).  This ISP is
now offering shell accounts that you can access either dialup from Michigan
(as mich.com used to) or by DSL line from anywhere in the US.  There must be
some way to do streaming MP3 without Windows.


#187 of 210 by krj on Tue Nov 21 20:47:27 2000:

U of M dropped classical programming on WUOM because the station was in 
steep decline in both number of people listening, and in user contributions.
These numbers have roughly doubled since WUOM dumped classical music,
according to the news stories I've seen on the subject.


#188 of 210 by rcurl on Wed Nov 22 05:11:12 2000:

That's because there are administrators at UM that are more interested
in quantity than in quality. What does "steep decline" mean? Good
programming, adequately supported *by the institution* remains good
programming. Reducing the quality of the programming and showing an
increase in listeners and contributions doesn't mean anything, except that
that is the nature of people - quality always loses to quantity, *unless
one has a policy opposing that*. UM did not.

One really should look at the number of people that *don't* listen to
WUOM. By what percentage was that reduced by the change in programming?
I'd say the change in programming made an almost imperceptible change
in the percentage that don't listen, even though it brought in more $$$
to UM's coffers.


#189 of 210 by krj on Wed Nov 22 05:44:36 2000:

I don't know the details of WUOM; there was extensive coverage in the 
Observer as the massacre of classical music happened.  My guess is that
UM, like MSU, made substantial cuts in their direct funding to the 
NPR station and told the stations they had to make up the difference 
in public fundraising.


#190 of 210 by rcurl on Wed Nov 22 18:35:49 2000:

That is precisely what happened. That also gives us those seemingly
endless, repetitive, fund-raising weeks. I'm surprised that those forced
to do those don't commit suicide more often. What do they get out of being
so upbeat and cheerful for a week or so? Their salary, presumably, but
their real profession is usually not show business, and having to grovel
and dance for their dinner must be demeaning to many of them. Do you
really think they are all really doing it just for the "cause"? The
"cause"  being, being able to buy canned programming from NPR?



#191 of 210 by krj on Thu Nov 23 06:20:54 2000:

Here's another article about the two digital satellite systems:
http://www.latimes.com/business/cutting/ttimes/lat_radio001026.htm
 
The two competing firms have web sites:
XM Satellite Radio:     http://www.xmradio.com
Sirius Satellite Radio: http://www.siriusradio.com
 
The quote from Sirius:  "We don't just have a classical music channel.
We have three separate channels: symphonic, chamber and opera."
Doesn't look like they'll have a folk music channel, though.
Sirius says they'll be operating in January 2001.  You can sign up 
for a mailing list for information if you want to be a charter subscriber.

The quote from XM, the Lee Abrams operation:
"XM's more traditional classical channel will, ((Abrams)) said, be
 'very sensual, heavy with female voices.'"  Their site mentions
folk music, though.   I got a suspicion they don't mean my sort of 
folk music.


#192 of 210 by dbratman on Fri Nov 24 18:30:12 2000:

Sirius has three classical channels, gosh.  Netradio (www.netradio.com) 
has at least eight.  Besides an opera channel, they have two chamber 
music channels (one for piano music, one for everything else), two 
symphonic channels (one for actual symphonies, one for other stuff 
which appears to be mostly light classics), two early music channels 
(one called "Chant", god help us, and one more general), and something 
called "Quiet Classics".

There was an article in _The New Republic_ recently, at 
http://www.tnr.com/online/goldberg071000.html, complaining that the 
proliferation of micro-market net radio stations is destroying a sense 
of general community.  I can't see that as a wholly bad thing: "general 
community" too often means "lowest common denominator", though to be 
fair the author had stations like KPFA in mind.  Still, I never listen 
to stations like that, because they're too damn eclectic: I have no 
idea what kind of thing I'm likely to get.

The article mentioned sonicnet, in a disparaging way as the ultimate in 
solipsism for its support of personal stations, but I was intrigued 
enough to go over and check it out.  I have to say I liked what I saw, 
and set up my own station for my non-classical tastes.  If you haven't 
seen it, they give you a list of a couple dozen genres and subgenres (I 
had no idea that "East Coast Rap" and "West Coast Rap" were different 
subgenres) which you can use to make a rough choice, and then you can 
adjust individual artists in those genres on a 0-5 scale.  I tinkered 
with a few (up with Renaissance, out with Rod Stewart), but otherwise 
left it alone, mostly because most of the performers are people I've 
never heard, or even heard of.

So what I like about this setup is not so much my control over the 
music as the opportunity to hear new music that I might like, without 
either having to tread through broadcast pop radio sludge, or hunt down 
things on the web for myself.  If I like or dislike something new, I 
can change the settings, and any given song that annoys you, you can 
just press the skip button and get on to the next one.  How I wish I 
could do _that_ on broadcast radio!


#193 of 210 by keesan on Sat Nov 25 04:59:31 2000:

What is sonicnet and how do you make it work?


#194 of 210 by dbratman on Thu Nov 30 22:55:37 2000:

There is a link to sonicnet from the New Republic article, but I should 
have put it in.  The home page is radio.sonicnet.com.

You can choose from pre-set stations or invent your personal station.  
You do this by picking a couple favorite genres from a list (I'd advise 
against more than that: it waters down your selection too much), which 
then generates a list of performers at 1-5 stars, which you can then 
adjust to personal preference.  (For instance, I love folk but I hate 
Dylan, so zero stars for him.)  You can also add other artists 
individually, even ones not on the pre-set list, if they're in the 
database.

Every time you log on, the system creates a playlist from your current 
list of artists, weighted by current number of stars.  You can skip to 
the next selection at any time.  There's no choice of individual albums 
or songs: in practice you hear mostly recent releases or re-releases 
(putting Thompson at 5 stars means I'm getting a lot from "Mock 
Tudor"), punctuated by occasional Office Depot and Slim Jim commercials.

I think it's pretty cool, though I wouldn't want it to be my only web 
station.  Fidelity at 56K is not too great.


#195 of 210 by keesan on Fri Dec 1 23:42:41 2000:

I tried to put together my own personal classical station.  After following
all the instructions, it told me I had successfully added Blues (sic) and
then displayed below that one line where I was to tell them if I wanted to
hear a little or a lot of Bach, Mozart and Tchaikovsky (all spelled right).
I get the impression you are not supposed to be a classical fan if you are
using their 'stations' - classical is something you might want to mix in with
the real stuff.  Then I tried to find out the hardware requirements and after
loading all the graphics (can't see anything otherwise, it is all images
instead of text) I got a page with a lot of bullets and nothing after them.
At this point I concluded that I probably did not have what it took to use
their services.  I informed them of my experience in response to an automated
e-mail that arrived shortly after asking for broken links, etc.  
Is this 'station' something that utilizes RealAudio?


#196 of 210 by dbratman on Thu Dec 14 19:26:21 2000:

Keesan - Possibly your connection is too slow, though I use Sonicnet on 
a 56K modem without any problem about things loading.  Maybe it was 
just a bad day.  Try again?

I don't quite follow why you think you accidentally added "Blues" when 
you then got a list of Bach, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky, which suggests 
you did indeed get the classical section.

They have some pre-set classical stations on the service, too: you can 
find them under a link labeled "Radio Sonicnet Stations" at the top of 
the page, or from a pull-down menu labeled "Choose a station."

But if your classical tastes are as picky and idiosyncratic as mine, 
and you still want to create your own station, let me try to describe 
the process in more detail.  What you get when you log on and ask to 
create a station is a list of genres, with a set of radio buttons 
labeled 0-5 after each of them.  To create an all-classical station, 
leave all the other genres at 0 and put the one classical genre 
(called "Classical and Romantic") at 4 or 5.

Clicking OK at the bottom should, as I recall, take you to the page 
listing a bunch of composers of the 1750-1900 era, each with 0-5 stars 
after them.  You can edit your preferences by clicking on a name, which 
causes another little window to pop up with a set of the radio buttons 
on it.  Pick your choice and confirm.

Then, if you want to add composers from outside this period - there are 
a lot of performers/composers from all genres in the database who are 
not in the genre lists - do a "Search by Artist" and type in the 
composer's name.  A list of names fitting that word string will come 
up, and you click on the name as above.

As for technical requirements, the only ones I know of are in "Player 
Settings", which offers a choice between "Modem" and "DSL/ISDN Cable 
Modem/T1", and another choice between Windows Media Player, RealPlayer 
G2, and "I don't care".


#197 of 210 by keesan on Fri Dec 15 02:56:35 2000:

Thanks for all the info.  Is RealPlayer G2 the one that will not work with
Win31?  I don't have room on my hard drive for Win95 (or a whole lot of
interest in learning to use it).  The site told me, on the same page, that
I had successfully chosen Blues, while just below that it displayed Mozart
etc.  I may try again some day, after getting the neighbor to come over with
his Win95 CD and install it on an empty computer with a CD-ROM drive.  
Possibly my browser (Netscape 3) could not handle the site properly. 
(Netscape 4 takes up too much space).  Hopefully other grexers will benefit
from your instructions.  


#198 of 210 by keesan on Fri Dec 15 02:58:48 2000:

My modem is 28K - works on a few RealAudio stations.  I think I was using
Realaudio 4.  Crashed so often that I gave up.  RealAudio blames it on the
Shiva dialer.  I really need different hardware and software if I am going
to continue this experiment.


#199 of 210 by keesan on Mon Dec 18 03:50:33 2000:

From: tuomas leikola <tobo@sci.fi>

if you want to stream with windows, you can use winplay3 16bit, if you still
can find it somewhere.. the 16-bit version is a lot faster than the 32-bit
version, and it supports m3u files (not pls files, you will have to extract
the url yourself.)

the key number should not be hard to find, at days mp3 players were a new
thing (back on 486) winplay3 was the only considerable player there was :)


------------
------
What is a m3u file?  A pls file?  A key number?  Has anyone in this conf
listened to streaming mp3s with win31?



#200 of 210 by keesan on Wed Dec 20 16:25:51 2000:

I could find only Winplay3 for Win95.


#201 of 210 by dbratman on Sat Dec 30 16:48:37 2000:

I have come across more comments (I think they were on Usenet 
somewhere) by people who found the Sonicnet interface hard to 
understand and impossible to use.  I have no idea why they (and you) 
are having problems while I, with an Athlon chip but only a 56K modem 
on an ordinary phone line, find it works perfectly every time.  I've 
been on the other side of disputes like this (for instance, I can never 
get superglue to stick to anything), so I know how frustrating it can 
be.


#202 of 210 by n8nxf on Sun Dec 31 13:56:21 2000:

Not even your fingers?


#203 of 210 by keesan on Tue Jan 2 23:01:55 2001:

Maybe you need a 56K modem to get it to work?  I used my fastest, a 33K.
It probably would not have sounded so good anyway.


#204 of 210 by dbratman on Wed Jan 3 21:19:36 2001:

It doesn't even sound so hot at 56K, its biggest problem.  I think of 
it as AM radio, which doesn't sound terrific either.  Having found on 
occasion that songs I enjoyed on the car radio sounded terrible with CD 
quality and no background noise, I'm not upset about this.


#205 of 210 by keesan on Thu Feb 1 21:07:37 2001:

Sonicnet just replieed (my help equest went astray).  Their online system
rquirements (under Help) call for Realplayer G2, which I think requires Win95,
which I do not have.  They also suggest a DSL line, a fast Pentium, 64M RAM,
etc.  Will see if Arachne will play streaming MP3 - there are hints to that
effect in the latest version.  The tech support also suggested hooking up the
computer to my stereo system for better-than-radio sound.  


#206 of 210 by dbratman on Thu Feb 1 21:16:53 2001:

DSL you don't need.  I know that because I don't have it at home.  I 
have those other things, though (except I have an AMD Athlon, not a 
*ych pfu* Pentium) [religious wars, never mind]


#207 of 210 by keesan on Fri Feb 2 02:57:41 2001:

It sounds like all you really need is Win95 (to handle RealAudio G2) and 16M
RAM and a 28K modem, and a fast 486.  We were listening to Realaudio G2 on
this combination before.  I hate to bother installing 60M Win95, then Dialup
Networking, then 15M download of Netscape 4 (expands to 28M), but we have
enough comptuers that I could sacrifice one just for that.  Or listen to LPs.


#208 of 210 by krj on Thu Feb 22 01:56:37 2001:

News item from zdnet.com and wsj.com.  A company called "Supertracks"
has an idea for improving the profitability of Internet radio.  
According to the article, Supertracks claim that the costs of 
streaming radio are so high that a user who listens to high-quality
sound for 1.5 hours per day costs the webcaster $81 per year.
Their solution?  They figure you listen to the same songs over 
and over again anyway, so they download a library of 400 songs to 
your computer and then only the play order has to be sent out from
the central office.  They say they'll swap out 100 songs per month.
This is supposed to cut the cost to $15 per listener.


#209 of 210 by mcnally on Thu Feb 22 04:29:59 2001:

  I've only recently been experimenting more with Internet radio but
  so far I find it dramatically preferable to broadcast stations..

  While Supertracks' suggestion may be technically sound, I can't
  imagine it working out very well with clearance from the record labels.


#210 of 210 by krj on Fri Feb 23 03:13:18 2001:

Just finished up two evenings of streaming Real Audio world music 
programs onto, um, cassette.  How low tech, but I have the hardware and
it plays nice in the car.   I find that the stream speed which Real Audio
negotiates varies with the time of day: during the business day I can't
get much better than 11K, which is sub-AM quality, but starting around
4 or 5 I can usually get 96K, which is just a little sub-FM with artifacts,
and after 7 pm I can get 96K reliably.  I don't know if the bottleneck
is at my end, at the program source, or on the network backbones.
 
Approximately eight more CDs which I must find.  Now I'm looking for 
a source for Italian political rap CDs.  

This stuff is at http://www.wen.com, and the best shows are hosted by 
Ian (not jethro tull) Anderson and Charlie Gillett.  I've ranted about
how wonderful this stuff is before.


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