In the past hour, my willcome account was killed, though I don't know by whom or for what. However, I suspect this conversation had something to do with it: Telegram from gelinas (root) on ttyq4 at 20:03 EST ... please stop re-entering the same item, over and over, in agora EOF (gelinas) Telegram to ttyq4... Msg: It's Greek Week. SENT Telegram from gelinas (root) on ttyq4 at 20:03 EST ... That is no excuse. Please stop. EOF (gelinas) Of course, it wasn't an excuse. I don't need an excuse to help with Greek Week, an exciting even sponsored by the silly hat fund meant to revive and review Grex's Greek origins. For some reason, gelinas had a problem with this, and, apparently, abridged my Grexist freedom of speech to stop it. Please fix this.79 responses total.
Apparently, gelinas is willing to lie to get his way: " I just locked willcome's account because of his script that created some one hundred new items in agora." Anyone can see that I didn't post anything close to one hundred items.
Sorry, but I think that 72 copies of the entire text of Plato's Republic is closer to one hundred items than it is closer to once.
I think gelinas's statement's closer to a lie than the truth.
I didn't count the items. I substracted the last item number I saw from the last item number I remembered.
Are you drunk? I ask only because you seem to talk about beer for hours in party, and use words like "substracted". Maybe that's why you abridged my right to free speech.
heh, yeah, "GreX staffer gets caught drunk on Job" (biblical reference courtesy for J. Gelinas)
I don't just think - I completely know - that willcome's actions were those of a total asshole, and that said account must never be unlocked, ever, for any reason whatsoever. If it is of any consolation, let it be known that s/he went out in a blaze of futile stupidity.
Suddenly I'm that much more glad I'm not reading agora anymore :)
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I feel Joe's actions were entirely appropriate and would have done the same in his place.
Ditto.
Same here.
I did do the same thing in Joe's place once, with the same user, so yeah, I concur.
Acutually, joe was far less enthusiastic with locking accounts than you were.
I agree and since all those items have the same text, I think you could kill all but one of them and not be reasonably accused of censorship. I don't like the kill command, I think moderators shouldn't have it, but cfadmin and root needs to have it for such situations
You forgot about "retire" again. That's why you're uncomfortable.
I'd've deleted all the items and killed the account and never given it a second thought. Of course, I also edited dah's responses in the mnet Agora cf to make it sound like he was calling himself an asshole, so I'm a terrible example. I would hope nobody on Grex would ever do such a thing. That would be totally reprehensible in a conference like Agora on Grex. So don't do it. I mean it. I should add that when I saw the first Plato's Republic item, I was hoping the others would each be another classic, like Moby Dick, War and Peace, Paradise Lost, Pride and Prejudice, and so on. That would have been cool in a geeky way. But then I found out they were all the same and so just geeky and uncool.
Can we decide to put a size limit on all responses and automatically (or manually) kill anything that exceeds the limit, as well as all copies of anything entered in more than 2 copies (to allow for errors)? Would this require a member vote? Five pages of text seems like a reasonable limit to me (25 line pages). I tend not to read things longer than that anyway.
I don't think we need to write a new policy every time some poor staff member has to change polytarp's diaper. Clean up the mess, and get on with life.
The posted items were clear abuse. Joe's response was entirely appropriate.
I have to agree. resp:18 Interesting thought... if they were all different, well, that might have been one thing. But it was just clear spam. I wasn't reading this crap, but I figure the action taken as described was appropriate... you had a point to prove again, polyboy?
Nope. He just wants to be noticed. Is that so wrong?
nah, and I should be able to scream at the top of my lungs the same thing over and over and over again standing in the middle of my favorite restaurant without fear of repercussion. right....
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heh, okay, Jamie, let's have some fun and get to know each other better. I'm guessing you're of the mind that Schenck v. United States [249 U.S. 247, 1919] says the free speech is protected until there is a clear and present danger to the speech? Thus as long as someone doesn't actually destroy Grex through speech, it's fine. Doesn't matter that speech might bring the system to its knees through what I would essentially call spam. Would that be an accurate description of your opinion? Just wanting to be sure I understand how much free speech Grex is supposed to be protecting.
I don't see any censorship issues raised when multiple identical posts are deleted, so long as one remains. It's kind of like a school bulletin board that allows only one flyer to be posted due to space limits. As long as all flyers are so limited, there is no censorship. I think staff acted appropriately.
Ah, the kids are testing the limits. That is what they do. I think Joe did a very good job with this situation.
I think we should also delete any postings over a certain size so they don't take up the entire disk.
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I'm personally not in favor of the "clear and present danger" argument, but I was under the impression that you believed that was the only time *free speech* could be restricted. Please explain to me what you believe the red-lettered *free speech* should mean on the Grex's web page.
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How long have these jerks been acting like this? (The kids I mean; staff are not jerks.)
30: The plural of "asterisk" is "asterisks," stupid. Deleting all of the "Republic" items had nothing to do with suppression of free speech, obviously. Anyone who pretends to turn it into a free speech discussion is just pulling your chains, Grexers. Ignore them. (Btw, the idea of "preserving free speech" by leaving one copy of Plato's Republic in the Agora cf is pretty hilarious. Sorry.)
re 33 All GreXers are children, apparently.
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resp:35 Speak for yourself.
I think that Cross's enthusiasm for blocking the accounts, IP address ranges, and other means of access used by known vandals is more appropriate than the current wimpy countermeasures. I also think that Grex should pursue criminal charges against the malefactors should a venue be found in which they can be made. At the very least, Grex should attempt to have the ISP service of the miscreants shut off under whatever conditions of use apply.
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Criminal charges? What law has been broken here?
Certainly not one that the RCMP is going to care about. Blocking them is rather pointless. They have enough IRC buddies to route themselves through, that it wouldn't be much more than a minor inconvenience. And you're almost begging them to enter more crap, just to demonstrate how ineffective attempts at blocking them are. How do I know this? I was on the Arbornet BoD when they were pulling the same crap there, and I was all gung-ho on blocking them. I didn't believe trex when he pointed out what I said in the paragraph above. I should have, because he was right.
IRC buddies . heh.
I thought "butt buddies" would be too puerile.
What, do you have problems with saying what you mean, twinkass?
No. I just know that Grexers would take it as a sign of homophobia if I called you a faggot.
Re #38: I can't believe you used both "malefactors" and "miscreants" in
the same post. That's impressive, in a weird sort of way.
Re #41: What twinkie said. It won't work.
Re #45: Whereas M-Netters would know it's a sign of affection.
Yeah, twinkie should try to carry that attitude over onto GreX users. It's the latest fad. Transfering m-net ideals, that is, not faggotry. Although the fact that twinkie is here makes it pretty gay.
Just can't get over your circle jerkin', can ya?
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re: 48 - Is it safe to say that when Grexers concur on something, they're "circle jerkin'" as well?
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You have a problem with oral sex, chump?
Re #41: There is this little thing called something like the Computer Fraud and Misuse Act of 199x, which criminalizes the unauthorized access to, or abuse of, computer systems. I don't see why we can't just explicitly yank the authorization of the abusers to access Grex, then we can start yanking the chains of the abusers AND their enablers AND all their ISP's. How hard would it be to get their IRC buddies disconnected? How many buddies would they have after that happened? How many would refuse to tell us who they are, faced with a subpoena?
I'm polytarp.
If you allow anyone to create an account on a system, how can any access to it be unauthorized?
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Happy GreX staffers... How would you capture the IP address of the user when the full IP isn't logged?
re: 53 You can't be serious. Please tell me you're playing devil's advocate here. If they broke in to a system, destroyed a bunch of data, and caused serious financial harm, you *might* be able to inflict the interstate and multinational hellfire you're proposing. But if you seriously think a judge is going to fire off a bunch of subpoenas just because a handful of people in Birkenstocks show up to court and ask nicely, you're sorely mistaken. The Fraud and Misuse Act doesn't even come close to applying here. Right off the bat, it says "Whoever knowingly accesses a computer without permission..." Unless they were sent some sort of formal notice by Grex, they have permission to use the system. It continues to say "...with intent to defraud, or cause damage...". You'd never prove in a million years that they intended to defraud anybody, and the "damage" caused is so subjective, it would be laughed out of court. You'd have an easier time accusing them of being Muslims using Grex as a "cyberintelligence training ground" and nail them under the PATRIOT Act. As far as their friends go, let's assume you've convinced an insane judge or magistrate to subpoena ISP's for their names and addresses. Do you really think they'll hop-to upon receipt? I can tell you from firsthand experience at two ISP's that they won't. In fact, they'll probably send a letter back that says (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Sorry, but we're not about to violate the First and Fourth Amendment rights of our customer. Come back with a subpoena from a REAL court." That none of this takes in to consideration the time and money it would take just to go to court. It's not as though you'd receive any money, because they didn't cause any monetary damage. (Well, unless you pull a fast one like Arbornet did, and accuse them of magically breaking the hardware.) I really don't think you're going to get legal gears spinning over a few pages of text. P.S., they probably get a great deal of enjoyment out of conversations like this. Please, learn from Arbornet for once, and let it go.
resp:50 Could be, when they're desperate to prove the point. Sometimes it's a duel between the Canucks and them anyways.
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I heard it was the misunderstanding by the court that got Arbornet so much money.
and le aa snooze.
I still maintain that, as it stands, I'm entirely within my rights to run various fun events like Greek Week and Grex Reads the Classics, and I will continue to do so.
60: Sure. I'm serious if you are.
Re resp:63: Why don't you create your own conference to run them in, then?
I ALREADY DID< IN FACT.
WOW
Hmmm. The red words on Grex's home page are there because I put them there, back when I designed that page. I don't remember consulting anyone about it, but nobody else has objected to them or removed them. I'm a bit surprised to see that these have somehow become the preamble to Grex's constitution in the minds of some. If I changed it to "beer and pretzels" would the whole issue go away? Does anyone care about the framers intent? Seriously, this interpretation of what "free speech" means is absurdly extreme and absurdly simplistic. Does removal of the record of a discussion that ended two years ago really make Grex a less effective venue for free discussion? Actually, Grex might be a better venue for free speech if everything were deleted after a year. People might feel more free to speak if they didn't think their every word would be preserved in public view for all eternity. Does anyone feel "freed" by jp2's position on this matter? If these items are left deleted, will you feel less free to speak on Grex than you once did? If not, what exactly is the damage done to free speech here?
What some people here are (intentionally?) missing is that free speech as an ideal is not most effectively preserved by applying it indiscriminately to ALL speech. Certain forms of speech are clearly prohibited under the American constitution, and rightly so because their destructive (as distinctly opposed to disruptive) potential far exceeds any possible value of those specific messages and specific forms of speech, especially when there are so many other means by which to convey ideas. Shouting fire in a crowded thatre is not illegal because it will interrupt the ability of the audience to enjoy the performance, but because the sudden movement of a mass of people through the bottlenecks of a few exits can easily result in the deaths of some of those people (and has done so). Similarly, accounts are locked on Grex for abuse of the system in a fashion which either ignores or blatantly seeks to exceed the limitations to which the system is subject, and which thereby presents a very realm potential to deny access to the system to those who wish to use it. The analogy is not direct in that loss of access to Grex does not necessarily result in the death of any users, but it does result in tangible degradation of the user experience. If that condition persists unchecked, Grex's core user base would be faced with either abandoning the system or enduring unnecessary delays which would likely exceed their desire to participate in the community. Therefore, it is quite reasonable that Grex should limit the absolute freedom of expression within its borders in order to preserve its ability to foster freedom of speech within its borders. Abusers such as dah/polytarp/willcome/etc (and I would be inclined to include naftee because I believe it is the same person) are guilty of conscious and premeditated attempts to destroy Grex, so any claims of violation of its free speech rights on Grex are not only specious, but are callously and cynically calculated to further its efforts to this end.
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Sure, if you cite where I said that "destructive" speech is banned BY the constitution. (Seems to me I said "under," meaning within the bounds of. As with all constitutional issues, this means as determined by the SCOTUS.)
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You tell me. By the way, if you can't tell the difference between backpedaling and clarification in the face of a straw man, then you should stay out of politics.
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other is a jerkface. It's statement's about people trying to destroy GreX are all wrong.
Naftee, you're ABSOLUTELY correct, you ARE a vandal and an asshole!
Have a nice day! :):):)
:-0
TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE
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