Grex Oldcoop Conference

Item 84: Expel the Troublemakers

Entered by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 18:19:40 2004:

In Art. II, Sec (a) of the Bylaws, an individual is only eligible for
membership in the corporation if they support the goals and objectives as
enumerated in the Preamble.  That's nice.  In the Preamble, the objective
is "to provided an open-access computer conferencing system for the
education, intellectual enrichment, and entertainment of its users through 
the peaceable interchange of information and ideas" (sic).  That's also
nice.

As two members, valerie and jep, are currently working actively to
suppress the interchange of information and ideas, it is my belief they
are no longer eligible for membership.  Therefore, I propose expelling
both from the corporation.
44 responses total.

#1 of 44 by gull on Mon Jan 12 18:24:34 2004:

Kick out people who disagree with you.  Now *there's* a fine example of
supporting free speech.


#2 of 44 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 18:25:44 2004:

This response has been erased.



#3 of 44 by gelinas on Mon Jan 12 18:39:54 2004:

(Which argument could be used to find you not in support of the Preamble
and so eligible for expulsion.)

It seems to me that the present unpleasantness is educating several,
intellectually enriching others, and entertaining some.  The removal of
a few items has not hendered, indeed, has enhanced, the interchange of
information and ideas, if not necessarily "peaceably".

I find no ground to support your proposal.


#4 of 44 by other on Mon Jan 12 18:51:51 2004:

The premise presented in sentence one of paragraph two of response 
#0 is false, or at least unsupported by the evidence, rendering the 
conclusion irrelevant.  No action of the sort proposed is either 
appropriate or called for.  

Note: Article III, Section c. of the bylaws reads as follows:

  c.  The BOD shall make decisions related to system maintenance,
      staff responsibilities and appointments, and issues related
      to daily business.

I believe that determining eligibility for membership falls clearly 
under "issues related to daily business" and is therefore the sole 
and exclusive province of the Board of Directors.


#5 of 44 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 19:00:01 2004:

This response has been erased.



#6 of 44 by other on Mon Jan 12 19:04:44 2004:

Prove it.  This is an issue of qualification for membership, an 
issue which is plainly essential daily business of the organization.  
Only in exceptional circumstances is the issue controversial, and in 
all other circumstances, the Treasurer -- a member of the Board -- 
makes the determination as a matter of course.  Provide some 
evidence to contravene this.


#7 of 44 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 19:06:49 2004:

This response has been erased.



#8 of 44 by jep on Mon Jan 12 19:07:55 2004:

If you can get 50% of the membership to vote for me to leave Grex, then 
I'll voluntarily make a commitment to never return.  That is, no 
special software, or firewall rules, or anything of the sort, will be 
necessary to get me to stop logging in.

Hmm, this is starting to feel personal, so I'll respond accordingly.  
If you can get 50% of the members to vote that they'd rather have you 
as a participant of Grex than me, I'll leave.  (But I doubt if you'll 
even get so far as to get the voteadm to set up the question.)


#9 of 44 by other on Mon Jan 12 19:20:07 2004:

Now there is an interesting proposal.  In the interest of keeping 
things entertaining and fun, I propose and amended proposal, to wit:

Let the membership make a choice between two options:  1) Kick jep 
off of Grex; and 2) Keep jep, and kick polytarp/dah/willcome/naftee 
off of Grex.

In the event of a tie vote, let jp2 be given the boot.

(I like these odds much better.)  :):)


#10 of 44 by ryan on Mon Jan 12 19:23:53 2004:

This response has been erased.



#11 of 44 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 19:27:20 2004:

This response has been erased.



#12 of 44 by gull on Mon Jan 12 19:32:57 2004:

Just out of curiousity, is there precident for removing someone's
membership by member vote?


#13 of 44 by jep on Mon Jan 12 19:34:47 2004:

No, it has never happened nor has it been attempted.  There have been 
discussion items, where someone would offer to leave if there were 
enough votes that he do so.


#14 of 44 by willcome on Mon Jan 12 19:37:00 2004:

(it's happened on M-Net.)


#15 of 44 by gelinas on Mon Jan 12 21:03:21 2004:

(This ain't M-Net.)


#16 of 44 by willcome on Mon Jan 12 21:06:49 2004:

How do you know?!


#17 of 44 by jmsaul on Mon Jan 12 23:12:03 2004:

It has not happened on M-Net, irrelevant though that is to Grex.


#18 of 44 by willcome on Mon Jan 12 23:33:35 2004:

Then how do you explain how did I lose my membership?!


#19 of 44 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 23:39:08 2004:

This response has been erased.



#20 of 44 by naftee on Mon Jan 12 23:44:12 2004:

re 9 If you haven't noticed, for once, the title of this item does not 
refer to myself and willcome.

(Of course, we are not troublemakers at all)


#21 of 44 by willcome on Tue Jan 13 00:10:20 2004:

(whih is why the title doesn't refer to us.)


#22 of 44 by jmsaul on Tue Jan 13 01:16:38 2004:

Re #19:  Let's take this discussion to M-Net, where you'll show me the
         citizen initiatives in which their access was removed.


#23 of 44 by naftee on Tue Jan 13 01:59:32 2004:

Excellent idea!  While we're at it, let's take the whole GreX 
community there, as a kind of "cultural experience".


#24 of 44 by willcome on Tue Jan 13 02:15:01 2004:

Re. #22:  the response uptop [0(00000)] is about membership, not access.


#25 of 44 by jp2 on Tue Jan 13 02:52:36 2004:

This response has been erased.



#26 of 44 by jaklumen on Tue Jan 13 03:35:09 2004:

Dra-mah.


#27 of 44 by gull on Tue Jan 13 03:43:51 2004:

Re resp:23: Field trip!


#28 of 44 by naftee on Tue Jan 13 04:34:18 2004:

Best two words in the English language!


#29 of 44 by jp2 on Tue Jan 13 14:35:12 2004:

This response has been erased.



#30 of 44 by tod on Tue Jan 13 21:13:24 2004:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 44 by davel on Wed Jan 14 16:41:48 2004:

Hmm.  Among the text everyone here has seen on running newuser, in the section
entitled "Declaration of Principles", it says:
> 
> This system is intended to foster community education and the
>     spiritual and intellectual enrichment of its users through
>     the peaceable interchange of ideas.
> The members of this system hope to attract a large, diverse, and
>     mature group of thinking individuals and thereby to contribute
>     to a better-informed citizenry.
> Governance of the system is based on cooperative principles,
>     including open membership, democratic control, and non-
>     profit economics.
> This is an open-access system; the public is welcome.  However,
>     regular users are encouraged to become members and help
>     support the system financially.  Voting on system policy
>     matters is restricted to members.
> It should go without saying that the system is specifically NOT
>     intended for any illegal purpose.
> Users are asked to be considerate of others, and are especially
>     asked to make a point of setting a good example for those
>     few who may from time to time fail to return the favor.

That last sentence would suggest that jp2 be have to be one of the 
first exiled, if this ridiculous suggestion were put into practice.
I don't mean *merely* his actual practice of ignoring it, but his
repeated statements indicating that this is a matter of deliberate
policy on his part.


#32 of 44 by naftee on Wed Jan 14 23:58:59 2004:

You'd be kicked off by the third sentence, so your suggestion has no merit.


#33 of 44 by gull on Thu Jan 15 02:11:58 2004:

Hey, don't mock those rules.  Jan Wolter carried them out of a sacred 
machine room, band-printed on tablets of stone.


#34 of 44 by jep on Thu Jan 15 03:38:00 2004:

I'd rather we don't expel anyone from Grex.


#35 of 44 by naftee on Thu Jan 15 03:41:02 2004:

I'm still wondering if it's pronounced "love-lace" or "lovel-ace" or simply
"lo-velace".


#36 of 44 by davel on Thu Jan 15 14:47:48 2004:

You have my permission to keep wandering ... er, wondering.


#37 of 44 by naftee on Fri Jan 16 02:54:15 2004:

Aww, you aren't gonna help?!


#38 of 44 by remmers on Mon Jan 19 15:50:59 2004:

<donning voteadm hat...>

I've posted a summary of the rules regarding voting in item 75,
response 179 (resp:75,179).  The earliest voting could begin,
should Jamie elect to bring it to a vote, is January 26.


#39 of 44 by styles on Wed Jan 21 03:40:43 2004:

















#40 of 44 by naftee on Wed Jan 21 04:31:03 2004:

JERK>


#41 of 44 by jep on Wed Jan 21 17:08:44 2004:

Jamie, are you really going to bring to a vote whether I can be a 
member of Grex?  Valerie has already resigned her membership so that 
part of the proposal seems moot to me.

I'm sure you know how it would come out, but I am curious as to whether 
you're going to go through making remmers set it up and asking people 
to vote on it.


#42 of 44 by jp2 on Wed Jan 21 17:26:11 2004:

This response has been erased.



#43 of 44 by mdw on Sat Feb 21 04:01:37 2004:

Actually, I don't believe Jan had much to do with the "Declaration of
Principles" that you see in newuser.  This text came from the founders,
and existed in nearly its final form by 1996.  I believe what's
enumerated there largely matches Jan's personal principles, and I
suspect he'd write something pretty similar if asked, but Jan was down
in Texas at the time and the founders did not have the opportunity of
his input.

Regarding "who is eligible for membership"; it is generally up to each
individual user to decide if they are eligible.  Only they can decide if
what happens on this system is something they value.  Since this system
is largely defined by the participation of its members, it is
disingenuous to suggest that the board or members ought to be expelling
members for expressing their views.


#44 of 44 by jesuit on Wed May 17 02:14:45 2006:

TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE


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