Grex Oldcoop Conference

Item 79: In Memorium: Grexer Valerie Mates

Entered by aruba on Sat Jan 10 22:15:57 2004:

This is a eulogy for Valerie Mates the Grexer.  Valerie the person is 
very much still alive, of course, but Valerie the Grexer has passed.  
I have a lot of grief (and anger) over her passing, so I decided to 
write this eulogy.

-----------

I first heard about Grex in April, 1992.  My roommate Paul brought 
home a newsletter from The People's Food Coop in Ann Arbor which had a 
little article about Grex in it.  (I learned later that Valerie had
written the article.)  I had a computer and a 1200 baud modem, so I 
tried Grex out.  I chose the login "mark".

I was only on a few times as "mark" - for whatever reason, it didn't 
really stick.  I don't remember much except noticing that there were 
women on Grex, which was encouraging to me.  And one woman in 
particular.

In March of 1994 I was starting a new life, having quit grad school 
the year before, bummed around for a while, and then started a new job 
as a programmer.  I had no social group, and I have never been very 
comfortable meeting people.  So I remembered Grex, where you could 
take your time over your responses, and where people seemed friendly.  
When I ran newuser again and it asked me for a login name, I sat and 
thought for a long while.  I decided I wanted something happy 
sounding, because I remembered a woman who had the login "popcorn" 
when I logged in before.  To me, popcorn sounds bouncy, happy - 
lively.  I had a map of the U.S. on the wall above my computer, and 
the Caribbean was just above my field of vision as I looked at the 
monitor.  I remembered a happy time I'd had at a party called "Aruba 
Night" when I was in college.  Hundreds of people have called me aruba 
ever since.

I first met Valerie in person on April 30th, 1994, which happened to 
be her 28th birthday.  That was the first time I walked with the 
Grexwalkers.  She looked just about the way I had pictured her, I 
think; though it's hard to say now what I pictured.  But there was 
this five-foot-tall person with a big smile who seemed to be the 
center of attention.  She had black hair with a few strands of gray.  
I remember her seeing something interesting (I don't remember what it 
was now) and sprinting 50 feet to get to it, she was so excited.  I 
think maybe I fell in love with her right then.

For most of the next few years, Valerie represented, to me, the 
essence of what Grex was.  Friendly, above all.  Not in need of strict 
rules.  Welcoming of differences.  And excited about life.  These were 
all things that were lacking in my life up to that point, and I was 
thoroughly taken with them.

There are a number of qualities necessary to make any human endeavor 
work.  Good planning.  Discipline.  Attention to detail.  Caring.  
Thoughtfulness.  Determination.  Different people can provide 
different parts of the puzzle.

Valerie, it seemed to me, provided excitement for Grex.  The joie de 
vivre.  A couple of years after I met her I wrote a piece about being 
"alive" that might be the thing of which I am most proud.  (You can 
find it in the archives conference, item 13.)  I'm sure I couldn't 
have written that if I had never known Valerie.

Valerie is able to make things happen.  Since being a founder of Grex 
she has gone on to spearhead a number of other groups and initiatives.  
She has a gift for starting new things.  I guess the flip side is that 
she's not as good at leaving the old ones.

No one should forget, though, that Valerie also gave extreme 
dedication to Grex.  Throughout Grex's existence, Valerie has done an 
immense (and I mean immense) amount of work for the system, most of it 
unheralded.  She used to sign emails as "Grex janitor", which was 
extremely appropriate, since she mostly cleaned up after people, and 
got little attention or respect for it.

I remember going out to dinner after a board meeting once - or maybe 
it was after we moved Grex to the Dungeon.  There were about six of 
us, and Valerie was the only woman.  She sat in the middle of the 
table, and it seemed to me that she was in the center of everything 
else, too.  I guess that was my bias.  But it seemed that we all loved 
her.

Of course, there were always conflicts.  Valerie doesn't like a lot of 
rules, and this occasionally meant she ran afoul of people who need a 
lot of them to live.  She's an extremely nonjudgemental person, which 
means she had trouble dealing with people who *are* judgemental.  As 
Grex acquired more and more of those people, she found it more 
frustrating and less rewarding.

But the real change came when Arlo was born.  No one in the world 
would fault a mother for putting her children first in her life - none 
of us ever have.  But, of course, that meant that Grex was the loser.  
Valerie continued to put in lots of time doing staff work right up 
until last week, but she stopped participating much in the conferences 
after 1998, and that was a huge blow to Grex.  I've always thought 
that the only thing which has kept Grex from devolving into a steady 
stream of insults is a small group of reasonable people who work hard 
to challenge the assumption that such a state is inevitable.  Valerie 
always topped my list of those people.

The loss of her then surprised me, I must say.  I never imagined Grex 
without Valerie.
93 responses total.

#1 of 93 by aruba on Sat Jan 10 22:16:18 2004:

It's my hope that other Grexers will want to share stories about 
Valerie here.  For me it's catharsis, for you it can be whatever you 
like.

I think it likely that a few people will want to use this item to crow 
and boast about Valerie's departure, and put her down.  I plan on not 
reading their responses.  I'd like to ask the rest of you if you would 
please not reply to them in this item, so that it doesn't get 
derailed.  If you feel you can't let something go without a retort, do 
it in another item or in email.  Thanks.


#2 of 93 by naftee on Sat Jan 10 22:23:28 2004:

Have you ever had sex with her?


#3 of 93 by willcome on Sat Jan 10 22:34:26 2004:

Re. 0: HEY< PUNK!  Jan called shotgun.


#4 of 93 by jp2 on Sat Jan 10 22:34:55 2004:

This response has been erased.



#5 of 93 by willcome on Sat Jan 10 23:04:56 2004:

And + Jan called shotgun.


#6 of 93 by tod on Sat Jan 10 23:35:02 2004:

This response has been erased.



#7 of 93 by willcome on Sat Jan 10 23:43:01 2004:

LISTEN< YOU SONS OF BITCHES:  JAN CALLED DIBS


#8 of 93 by jep on Sun Jan 11 03:34:16 2004:

I met Valerie at a JCC Colossal Computer Sale meeting, shortly after 
Grex was started.  I was with Arbornet; I'd known Valerie as "popcorn" 
on-line on M-Net but never met her in person.  I used to get 
invitations to the December 31, 1999 New Year's Eve party each year, 
but that was several years before 1999.

Things were a bit on the tense side between some M-Netters and some 
Grexers in those days.  Grex was this little startup with about 50 
users, and M-Net was the big dog.  Almost all of the Grexers were ex-M-
Netters, including all of their founders.  Grex was a reaction to the 
Dave Parks ownership period of M-Net; an attempt to run a conferencing 
system in a community governed sort of way.

At the JCC sale, we kind of avoided one another for the first part of 
the day, as I recall it.  STeve Andre was with the Grex side, and Jim 
Knight and I were on the M-Net side.  Mike Bernson had wandered 
through, and said hello to both sides; he never cared about politics.  
A few others from on-line had come through as well, and probably fled 
from both of our tables to avoid getting tangled up.

M-Net had an enormous pile of HP terminals that had been donated to us 
from Medstat, and Grex had some anonymous expansion cards and the 
like.  We were both making money, and we both needed it desperately.

At some point, someone decided it was time to break the ice between M-
Net and Grex, but I don't recall who.  We talked stiffly for a little 
while, we would have all gone our separate ways shortly, but then 
something else happened.  What I recall most sharply is this young 
woman came in just *bouncing* all over the place.  She couldn't stand 
still, it seemed.  Or stop talking.  She just *blasted* exuberance all 
over the place.  I don't know if we were introduced, but it was clear 
who she was.  I described her on one system or the other, in an item 
about introducing someone else, as being very popcorn-like.  There was 
just no imaginable way she could have been anyone else.

I remember her for her attempt to implement a unit of not-quite-
currency on Grex which was called "mathom".  (M-Net has gribblies, 
which are distinctly currency, though they've never been used to buy 
anything.)  I never understood "mathom".  It wasn't "mathoms".  It 
wasn't in units.

If you've ever used figlet... Valerie brought it here.  It's a way to 
use ASCII art to create larger characters.  It's still here; there are 
different fonts, but the only one I've seen used in years is from 
aruba.

There was this huge collaborative funding effort between Arbornet, 
Grex and the Huron Valley Community Network; it was called WINS, and 
it was intended to bring a big old computer networking grant to Ann 
Arbor.  HVCN hadn't been incorporated yet; Grex wasn't a 501(c)(3)
yet.  It was Valerie who brought it together.  I spent a fair amount 
of time working with her on it.  I also brought the news to a WINS 
meeting that Arbornet pulled out of it.  It ruined the project... as 
far as I can tell, Valerie is one of the few people involved who never 
blamed me for doing this.  (Then she and mdw, and HVCN tried to put 
together another proposal at a late date.  It failed, but they tried.)

My password expired at two separate points; I hadn't logged in for a 
half year or so.  Each time it happened, I mailed "staff@grex.org" a 
request to reset it, and each time, Valerie was the one who 
responded.  Not just to set my password, saying "of course we know 
it's you", but making it exceedingly clear I was welcomed back.

I, too, am going to greatly miss Valerie.  I'm reeling with the loss 
to Grex.  I've already e-mailed her, twice saying that she can always 
come back.  I surely do hope she does.  Maybe after a little time 
passes, she will.


#9 of 93 by richard on Sun Jan 11 04:05:12 2004:

I still don't understand why Valerie seems to have taken her anger over that
parody on mnet of her baby diary out on grex.  There were names of grexers
in that parody item but those were faked, and she knows this I think.  My name
was in that item and I never heard of it until she sent a mass email a couple
of days ago to every grexer who seemed to appear in that item.  She did not
sound upset in that email and even suggested many of the responses in that
item were faked and thats why she was letting everyone know who appeared in
it.

When I went and read that item on mnet, it appeared to be Jan, not Valerie
who was upset.  In fact Valerie's post there seemed to show she was taking
it in stride.  But then the next day she's pulling out of grex and wiping out
all her posts. I really do think that Valerie could give a better explanation
of why she is leaving, and I think it would help people be less upset if they
could better understand her thought process.

I just think there is a way of leaving more gracefully than she did.  Does
she want people blaming themselves for her leaving? Does she want people
thinking things that may not even be true? (I mean maybe she doesn't give a
damn about that parody item and the timing was coincidental)  Somebody contact
her and suggest that she come back here and set the record straight, and say
goodbye properly.  


#10 of 93 by jep on Sun Jan 11 04:17:15 2004:

This item is not about that, Richard.  This is about appreciation for 
a valued member of the Grex community who has left us.


#11 of 93 by richard on Sun Jan 11 04:22:28 2004:

And one thing I remember from years back was Valerie starting a chain 
reaction where a bunch of people changed their logins from whatever 
they were to their real names.  It was just a thing to do at the time, 
like maybe it made your posts more real or something if you used your 
real name as your login. One day "Popcorn" started posting as "Valerie" 
and suddenly other users followed in suit and started using their real 
names.  Grex's "reality" phase.  That was when I changed from "Kerouac" 
to "Richard"  I figured if people want to be their actual names for 
their logins, well that isn't a bad thing, and if Valerie is 
being "Valerie" now, well it must be a real trend. 

It got confusing actually, because at that time there were three active 
Valeries on grex-- Val (Valerie Szopko), BlondVal (Brighn's wife, I 
don't remember her last name but she was the blonde Valerie), and 
Valerie.  Now all the Valeries are gone.  There are no more Valeries on 
Grex.  :(



#12 of 93 by janc on Sun Jan 11 05:51:44 2004:

Mark - what a thoughtful thing to post.  It warmed my heart and brought back
many great memories.  Valerie and I have lost a common interest.  That's a
loss, but far from fatal.  I hope and expect that her long friendship with
you and other Grexers will have lost no more than that.  Thanks.


#13 of 93 by tod on Sun Jan 11 14:45:35 2004:

This response has been erased.



#14 of 93 by gull on Sun Jan 11 17:23:20 2004:

Re resp:11:  I guess that makes me a reality hold-out.


#15 of 93 by jep on Sun Jan 11 17:26:21 2004:

No, the incident I described was about Valerie.  


#16 of 93 by mta on Sun Jan 11 18:20:32 2004:

I don't remember meeting Valerie.  It just seems that she has always been a
part of the conferencing community in Ann Arbor, and was there from the
beginning.

I have always liked Valerie and respected her, both for her brilliance and for
her genuine concern for people's feelings and for doing the right thing
*because* it's the right thing. 

I'm not sure what to say, except that, like Mark I never imagined Grex without
Valerie and I think the system will be infinitely poorer without her.


#17 of 93 by happyboy on Sun Jan 11 20:02:27 2004:

infinitely?

oh how superlative!


#18 of 93 by keesan on Sun Jan 11 20:05:55 2004:

Valerie's responses were everywhere I looked when I first started using the
grex conferences.  And she was one of the first grexers I met in person.


#19 of 93 by naftee on Sun Jan 11 20:49:18 2004:

EVERYONE"S TALKING ABOUT VALERIE AND SHE CAN:"T EVEN READ THIS>> WAIT< SHE"S
A PROFESSIONAL I FORGOT>


#20 of 93 by janc on Mon Jan 12 02:26:52 2004:

(Valerie resigned from staff and does not plan to be an active
participant on this system, but she has never said she will never come
here again.  In any case, if the people posting here were interested
exclusively in talking to Valerie, they'd have used email instead.)


#21 of 93 by willcome on Mon Jan 12 10:21:10 2004:

k.


#22 of 93 by jp2 on Mon Jan 12 19:05:47 2004:

This response has been erased.



#23 of 93 by dpc on Mon Jan 12 19:09:47 2004:

Valerie was one of the stars of M-Net and Grex.  I remember her
from a bunch of meetings, including at my house.  Let's hope
she will check in to Grex from time to time.


#24 of 93 by tod on Mon Jan 12 19:18:43 2004:

This response has been erased.



#25 of 93 by happyboy on Tue Jan 13 05:38:41 2004:

was she a *dropper*?  did she have a loose belt?


#26 of 93 by tod on Tue Jan 13 20:38:41 2004:

This response has been erased.



#27 of 93 by happyboy on Tue Jan 13 21:20:25 2004:

did tsty give her *the fishhook*?


#28 of 93 by tod on Tue Jan 13 21:22:27 2004:

This response has been erased.



#29 of 93 by naftee on Tue Jan 13 22:02:57 2004:

tod, why do you have the same phone number twiceI


#30 of 93 by tod on Tue Jan 13 22:07:57 2004:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 93 by naftee on Tue Jan 13 22:31:00 2004:

uuh, in the coop or agora conference?


#32 of 93 by mcnally on Tue Jan 13 22:34:52 2004:

This response has been erased.



#33 of 93 by tod on Tue Jan 13 22:39:21 2004:

This response has been erased.



#34 of 93 by mcnally on Tue Jan 13 23:33:31 2004:

This response has been erased.



#35 of 93 by willcome on Tue Jan 13 23:34:14 2004:

or just rtfm.


#36 of 93 by flem on Tue Jan 13 23:50:10 2004:

Valerie the grexer has become the Kurt Cobain of Grex.  She chose to
have the entirety of her existence here colored and distorted by one
spasm of senseless destruction.  She left her friends and fans without
even the proper means to remember her by, just a big mess to clean up.  


#37 of 93 by twenex on Tue Jan 13 23:51:17 2004:

Smells Like Team Spirit


#38 of 93 by tod on Tue Jan 13 23:53:44 2004:

This response has been erased.



#39 of 93 by twenex on Tue Jan 13 23:55:19 2004:

Oh, how I laughed!


#40 of 93 by jmsaul on Wed Jan 14 00:10:22 2004:

Jan's an ex-stripper?  Huh?


#41 of 93 by tod on Wed Jan 14 00:21:37 2004:

This response has been erased.



#42 of 93 by twinkie on Wed Jan 14 00:53:46 2004:

I want to be Meatloaf.



#43 of 93 by twenex on Wed Jan 14 01:15:05 2004:

Yeah , yeah yeah!


#44 of 93 by tod on Wed Jan 14 01:34:40 2004:

This response has been erased.



#45 of 93 by aruba on Wed Jan 14 02:59:52 2004:

Mike (mcnally) and Jeff (twenex) - if you feel the need to reply to things
said here, could you please take it to another item (per my request in #1)?
Thanks.


#46 of 93 by rcurl on Wed Jan 14 03:52:27 2004:

Re #36: that makes it sound as though Valerie had some obligation here. I
don't think she did. Everyone here is a free agent with absolutely zero
obligations.

I know it is just because I saw the movie so recently, but I see some
resemblance between these actions by people here and those of characters
in the movie The Hours. For their own reasons Virginia Woolf chucked life
by walking into a river. Laura Brown walked out on her family and adopted
a different life. Mrs. Dalloway had adopted a homosexual relationship even
though she had a child. I once quite a good job but quit and ran off to
Europe.

It is in "the hours" following fullfilling events or periods, or
catastrophic events (either is at the time "meaningful) that people may
become disillusioned or wishing to seek new experiences and perhaps
people. Most people don't because of feelings of obligation, but those
feelings may not also be sources of satisfaction.



#47 of 93 by flem on Wed Jan 14 17:25:03 2004:

> Re #36: that makes it sound as though Valerie had some 
> obligation here. I don't think she did. Everyone here 
> is a free agent with absolutely zero obligations.

If you're seeing something in #36 about obligations and valerie havign
them, it's coming straight out of your imagination.  It isn't there.  If
you're going to make up stupid shit, at least have the decency not to
attribute it to me.  


#48 of 93 by tod on Wed Jan 14 17:36:15 2004:

This response has been erased.



#49 of 93 by rcurl on Wed Jan 14 18:57:00 2004:

Re #47: "She left her friends and fans without even the proper means to
remember her by" sounds like the expectation of an obligation to me. 

Re #48: No one is talking about any criminal behavior here. 


#50 of 93 by flem on Wed Jan 14 19:17:46 2004:

re #49:  Yeah, whatever.  Go stick your head back in the fume hood. 


#51 of 93 by naftee on Wed Jan 14 23:45:36 2004:

Hmm, stick his head in willcome's ass?  He farts often enough.


#52 of 93 by rksjr on Wed Jan 21 05:42:26 2004:

I am grateful to Ms. Mates for her advice on improving my use of the Emacs
editor.


#53 of 93 by styles on Sun Jan 25 03:02:49 2004:

i am grateful for all the losers that made this item show up new to me because
they couldn't handle shit they posted like a week ago.


#54 of 93 by clees on Wed Feb 4 13:01:48 2004:

I remember Valerie a couple of things.
First of all she, and Jan took me in for a short stay when I first came 
over from Europe to visit Ann Arbor, but mostly for Grex.
Valerie really made me feel welcome at their home. Which is the house 
they owned before they moved to a new house. I had some excellent 
conversations with them.
As fro the first impression: online, like so many others Valerie was 
kindhearted, friendly genuinly interested, which is a rare quality.
When I met her I surprised to notice how petite she was, and how I had 
pictured her taller. I tend to do that with people I hold in high 
regard.
It pities me I never met them after that at my further visits to Grex 
city.


#55 of 93 by boltwitz on Fri Feb 6 04:28:59 2004:

I remember the breasts.  they were good for more than curing pink eye or
whatever.


#56 of 93 by clees on Fri Feb 6 13:14:32 2004:

Get jerking in the alley, you wanker.
You don't know what you are talking about.


#57 of 93 by happyboy on Sat Feb 7 11:33:12 2004:

because they are not there


#58 of 93 by bookie on Wed Feb 11 01:15:41 2004:

One can only hope that Valerie will be able to lick her wounds, heal and
return to Grex. She is needed, as this entire incident reveals.


#59 of 93 by jmsaul on Wed Feb 11 02:14:44 2004:

Staff members who delete items in a snit?  Yep, Grex needs those.


#60 of 93 by jp2 on Wed Feb 11 02:51:32 2004:

This response has been erased.



#61 of 93 by bru on Wed Feb 11 03:09:14 2004:

Are you going to step up to the plate and fill the void left by her Joe?


#62 of 93 by rational on Wed Feb 11 03:15:32 2004:

He's certainly not going to fill her bra.  Boy, those were some great breasts.


#63 of 93 by naftee on Wed Feb 11 03:42:27 2004:

Right, she left because she had too many 'commissions'.


#64 of 93 by tod on Wed Feb 11 18:26:52 2004:

This response has been erased.



#65 of 93 by jmsaul on Thu Feb 12 04:47:39 2004:

This response has been erased.



#66 of 93 by eeyore on Sun Feb 15 00:49:40 2004:

You know, up until this moment I was fondly remembering Grex, and all the
fun that I had here.  And now a lot of the reasons I left have just reared
their ugly heads.  Maybe I am better off not wandering back.

I couldn't tell you the first time I met Valerie....maybe at a GrexWalk.  I
remember many potlucks and parties.  She introduced me to Christine Lavin.
She was always so happy and exuberant.  She was what I wanted to be when I
grew up, a woman willing to make the rules and form the world arround her,
without being forceful or nasty.  A true hippie chik.  



#67 of 93 by rational on Sun Feb 15 00:51:37 2004:

She was often nasty to me.



#68 of 93 by eeyore on Sun Feb 15 01:04:50 2004:

I think I can see why.  Can't say I really blame her.


#69 of 93 by rational on Sun Feb 15 01:11:27 2004:

Well, you're a liar; you said she was never nasty, but you knew you didn't
know that was correct.  I don't think I can see why anyone -- even liars --
would support nastiness, but oh well.


#70 of 93 by naftee on Sun Feb 15 01:18:53 2004:

It's really funny how all GreXers carry the same attitude.

Once a GreXer, always a GreXer!


#71 of 93 by happyboy on Mon Feb 16 20:56:45 2004:

/passes out the gourmet jellybeans


#72 of 93 by clees on Tue Feb 17 11:44:01 2004:

Eeyore was not stating a fact, but personal experience, rational.
Place her words into context and you'll understand.

Your personal exp., though, seems to imply elsewise. It surprises me, 
cause rarely I have found a more openminded person with genuine 
interest in other people. I can keep sayuing over and over again.

What I think is that you were flaming or hotchatting her and she p[ut 
you back in your place. I'd be vexed too, if somebody hotchatted me.



#73 of 93 by davel on Tue Feb 17 15:13:14 2004:

I doubt it was even that.  He was probably filling up the disk and she locked
his account, or something like that.  Really nasty, hah.


#74 of 93 by rational on Tue Feb 17 16:02:00 2004:

IT"S NOT NASTY TO WEAR A RIBBON FOR FREEDOM!


#75 of 93 by naftee on Tue Feb 17 16:20:57 2004:

Is valerie hot?


#76 of 93 by rational on Tue Feb 17 16:54:16 2004:

YOU SHOUJLDL"VE EEN THE PICTURE SHE SENT ME OF HER WEARING ONLY A FREEDOM
RIBBON


#77 of 93 by twenex on Tue Feb 17 16:55:49 2004:

I think the fact thjat the opinions expressed in #76 and other items are not
being deleted is proof positive that the opinions expressed therein are
bollocks.


#78 of 93 by aruba on Tue Feb 17 17:34:46 2004:

Could you folks please take this discussion to another item?  Thanks.


#79 of 93 by rational on Tue Feb 17 17:49:38 2004:

ARUBA< COULD YOU PLEASE PUT ON THIS RIBBON?


#80 of 93 by naftee on Tue Feb 17 22:55:21 2004:

THANKS ARUBA<> BUT ALL THE OTHER ITEMS ARE FORGOTTEN> THIS IS THE ONLY ITEM
I HAVEN"T FORGOTTEN YET BECAUSE IT"S ABOUT VALERIE<>


#81 of 93 by rational on Tue Feb 17 23:38:55 2004:

HEY< BNAFTEE< TAKE A RIBBON


#82 of 93 by naftee on Tue Feb 17 23:59:09 2004:

THANSKS


#83 of 93 by rational on Wed Feb 18 00:00:31 2004:

YOU"RE WELCOME < HERE TAKE ANYOHTEr


#84 of 93 by naftee on Wed Feb 18 00:00:51 2004:

RIBBONS GALORE !


#85 of 93 by rational on Wed Feb 18 00:01:27 2004:

I LOVE RIBBONS


#86 of 93 by happyboy on Wed Feb 18 04:41:50 2004:

PRITTY RIBBINSES


#87 of 93 by bhelliom on Thu Feb 19 17:44:26 2004:

Yep, this is why I don't show up much anymore.  None of you that have a 
problem with her can even show a modicum of respect.  Deleting posts in 
a snit...it's this whole system that is the problem, not just one 
person.  I enjoyed what Valerie had to say, and I have enough respect 
for the person that posted this item to take my grievances elsewhere.  
Perhaps the rest of you ought to grow up.


#88 of 93 by albaugh on Thu Feb 19 17:58:44 2004:

puh-leeze


#89 of 93 by twenex on Thu Feb 19 18:00:38 2004:

Heh.


#90 of 93 by tod on Thu Feb 19 18:46:15 2004:

This response has been erased.



#91 of 93 by happyboy on Thu Feb 19 19:53:06 2004:

lol!


#92 of 93 by naftee on Fri Feb 20 00:50:47 2004:

 :-0


#93 of 93 by jesuit on Wed May 17 02:14:35 2006:

TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE


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