I'd like to propose that we accept Paypal's verification of users as acceptable ID for a Grex membership. This will make it easier for people to become members of Grex. I'm still not sure I entirely understand Paypal's system, so I would appreciate help from people who have been through the process. It seems they have at least two levels of security: 1) verification, and 2) address confirmation. Here's how https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/verification-outside describes verification: -------------------------------------- To become Verified, a PayPal Member must provide us with proof that he or she has a checking account. This tells us that you have passed the screening process of a financial institution. -------------------------------------- But then it goes on to say: -------------------------------------- U.S. residents can become Verified in two easy steps: Add a checking account (after you log in to your PayPal account) Confirm your checking account If you live outside the U.S., you can become Verified by following these steps: Add a credit card Enroll in the Expanded Use Program Enter the Expanded Use number --------------------------------------- So I guess if you're outside the US, you just have to have a credit card. (I don't know what the Expanded Use Program is.) Here's what http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/shipping-address-outside says about confirmed addresses: --------------------------------------- A buyer's Confirmed Address is checked against the credit card billing address maintained by his or her credit card company, or is verified by PayPal through an alternate process. --------------------------------------- However, it goes on to say --------------------------------------- An Unconfirmed Address sometimes poses an inconvenience for legitimate buyers. An address is Unconfirmed if it is not associated with a credit card or it can not be independently verified by PayPal. Gift Addresses and addresses associated with a Switch or Solo debit card can not be confirmed. Also, in general, most non-U.S. addresses can not be confirmed at this time. Since an address may be Unconfirmed for several reasons, it is the seller's responsibility to look at all aspects of the transaction before deciding whether to ship to an Unconfirmed Address. A buyer's Confirmed Address is checked against the credit card billing address maintained by his or her credit card company, or is verified by PayPal through an alternate process. --------------------------------------- So, there are good reasons why a person outiside the US wouldn't have a confirmed address. So: Should Grex accept Paypal's verification of a user? If so, should we require a confirmed address as well?54 responses total.
Since we accept a check as verification of identity, I think we can accept Paypal's "Verified Members". I don't think we should accept a Paypal "Confirmed Address" as proof of identity.
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I went through the Paypal process, and am both "Verified" and "Confirmed". I had to go through it because I bought something on eBay, then the seller wouldn't accept payment unless I was "Confirmed". I still don't know why. I don't clearly remember the process, but I think it involved supplying a credit card in addition to my checking account number (which Paypal already had). I would like to see Grex lighten up just a little on verification. It would be no harder to fake IDs directly, or create checking accounts with false information, than to create Paypal accounts with Confirmed Addresses for the purpose of spoofing Grex into allowing Internet access or votes. Also, this isn't something on which I feel the need to vote. If the treasurer believes someone is a unique person that's good enough for me. I think the standard being used should be made clear to everyone, but other than that it should be up to the discretion of the treasurer.
Um. Wasn't Grex's current verification system established by member vote? In that case, I'd like to think that either the board or the membership would have to vote to modify it. But I may be misremembering, of course.
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Right, the current ID policy was passed by the board.
But here's the deal (flame me if I'm off): Even though *PayPal* might have someone's address / locate-the-sucker info, *grex* still wouldn't have it, if it simply took PayPal's word for it. So if grex wanted to locate someone on its own (would it ever want to do that), it would have to work with PayPal to get it. And if grex were required to identify a member, would saying "please contact PayPal" be legit?
Yup, that's the tradeoff all right. I suspect law enforcement would be OK with us referring them to Paypal, but I don't know. There was some talk a while ago about a potential law requiring ISPs to accumulate and retain a certain amount of information on paying customers. I didn't pay much attention because it didn't seem to confilt with anything Grex does. Does anyone else know anything about such a proposed law, and if it ever came to anything? The other question is, does accepting Paypal's word for someone's ID fulfill our requirement that each membership be associated with a distinct person? I think so; I don't know how one person could spoof Paypal's system so that they looked like two people to us.
They'd have to obtain two credit cards with different names and addresses. Certainly possible, but it would be far easier to fake our other verification methods. I think PayPal is at least as reliable as what we accept now.
At one point, I had control of both my personal paypal account and Grex's. I don't know much about Paypal's current identity verification policies, or the difference between personal and institutional accounts or how we would be able to tell, but I suppose it's not impossible that a person could acquire two grex memberships that way. But, as gull pointed out, there are other equally fraudulent ways to beat our ID requirements. I think taking paypal's word for it is a reasonable thing for us to do.
Hmm, on second thought, it would be nearly trivial to get two voting memberships if we accept paypal; just send in a check the old way for the one and use paypal for the other. As I understand it, we have no way of knowing that the two are from the same source, and you don't even really have to lie. Again, I'm not sure how much we care. But it's somethign to think about.
I don't see that as a big risk. Two voting memberships for one person is not the end of the world, and it'd be difficult to expand that scheme to a number of memberships large enough to affect a vote.
It would be a big deal if something was passed on the strength of one vote. I don't think it's correct to assume that it's ok if one or two people could hold two voting memberships but it's ok if it's not a large number.
I'm not saying it's desirable or that attempts shouldn't be made to keep it from happening. But the effort we go to to prevent it ought to be in proportion to the risk. I don't think this, alone, is a good reason not to accept Paypal.
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I don't think that's relevant, really. We're not forcing people to use Paypal, but if they want to I think it's reasonable to let them. You might want to read back in other items and see how Grex has genuinely been ripped off by other methods of accepting credit cards. Paypal is extremely low-risk by comparison.
Yeah, Paypal is not the most savory institution in the world. I'm careful not to leave our moneywith them any longer than necessary, because I don't trust them not to freeze our account someday. But, these days, a whole lot of our income comes through Paypal, so it benefits Grex to use them. Greg - you said someone could send in a check and also send money through Paypal. Doesn't Paypal's verification method check that you are giving your real name? And likewise the bank's? So wouldn't someone have to lie to one or the other, and not get caught, for that scheme to work?
I don't know, Mark. Do you get people's real, full names when they send a paypal payment? Can you find that out from whatever user info they do send with paypal? It's been far too long since I took a payment for me to remember.
How much of Grex's income is via Paypal?
Grex received approximately $2300 via Paypal in 2003. That's about 32% of our total income.
Wow, that's quite a lot.
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When you get a Paypal payment, you get the sender's email address, full name, and their confirmed address (if they check the box to send it.) I use Paypal quite a bit for accepting ebay payments, these days.
Should a confirmed address be enough ID for Grex, then? Or should we require verification?
Verification.
I think it should be enough. Paypal's address confirmation scheme is harder to fake than the one we already use, anyway.
OK, I guess if paypal sends you the person's full name with each payment, my concerns are addressed.
Paypal's Terms of Service allow one person to have two Paypal accounts.
They have to be two email seperate addresses and one has to be a
Premier/Business account and the other a Personal account. ("Users may
only hold one Personal account and either one Premier or one Business
account." http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside)
However, they also say: "However, because user verification on the
Internet is difficult, PayPal cannot and does not guarantee any user's
identity."
I think any Paypal account associated with a bank account would be equal
verification as paying by check would be. No credit card is needed to be
Verified; only a bank account. (Not even a checking account. I'm
Verified with a savings account.)
jlamb sucks syphilitic pit bulls. Without a dental dam.
This doesn't sound like the jmsaul I know. ???
(I think he is expressing displeasure at the recent scribbling of more responses.)
I'm sooooooooooooo tired. YAwny ywayn ywany.
ME T00
Re #30, #31: Some people deserve reasoned argument. Some people deserve
a good sjamboking (look it up). I'm sick of the scribble
kiddies, and yes, I include Valerie in that category.
SCRIBBLE DIBBLE DIBBLE SCRIBBLE SCRIBBLRLDLIBIBIBBLBLELDL SVFTIBR:BRLLDIBBLEDIBBLEDOO I SCRIBBLE YOU
pickle:anthony:/usr/ports/net:133% dict sjamboking No definitions found for "sjamboking"
Get a better dictionary? http://www.bartleby.com/61/34/S0443400.html
MAYBE THAT DEFINITION WAS SCRIBBLE DIBBLE DIBBLED
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Pickle?
#37: interesting. #40: pickle.
TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE
has there been any movement toward paypal money transfers? it seems to be pretty stable and responsive adn responsible handling a couple million $$$ per day from ebay . something has to be right withthat, imnsho.
TS - Grex accepts money via Paypal, and we also accept a verified Paypal account as qualified ID for becoming a Grex member.
greate ... thankxxx
ummmmmmmm, what is the email address to use from paypal? could that be put in motd (or did i miss it somewherez?)
To send money to Grex using paypal, go to http://www.cyberspace.org/member.html and click on one of the paypal logos at the bottom of the page.
so there is no way for an9nymus donation ability? as i understand - adn use - paypal, all that;s neede is an email address ... adn that is missing form the grex page referenced above. > ummmmmmmm, what is the email address to use from paypal?
the best way to donate anonymously is to mail in a money order
Re #48: The email address to send payments to is treasurer@cyberspace.org .
thank you.
how about posting that information in motd?
I'm not sure anyone reads the motd anymore. Most of what one needs to know about sending money to Grex is in http://www.cyberspace.org/member.html http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html
cant hurt - might help ./
You have several choices: