I am a member in good standing, and this is a member initative. Here's the proposal: Cyberspace Inc. will cease to pay to provide dial-up access to Grex.52 responses total.
Why?
The dial-up lines cost Grex about half as much as the colocation fee, yet support many fewer users, and there's no doubt they could continue to access Grex if the lines were cut off. I endorse taking this proposal to vote.
re. 1: slip.
What about the people who don't have net access already? It's certainly a shrinking number; at one time we had what, 13 lines, but I question if we should kill them alltogether. There will be a time when we can phase them out, yes, but are we there yet?
How many dial-up lines are there right now?
We currently have 2 dialup lines. Providing dialup access is a significant part of Grex's charitable mission, and part of what we reported to the IRS when we applied for tax-exempt status. So removing the dialup lines would mean telling the IRS that we no longer provide access to the internet for people in the Ann Arbor area who cannot otherwise afford it, and it could mean losing our 501(c)3 status. So I will vote to keep dialin access, if this goes to a vote.
As will I.
Regarding #1; Cost vs. benefit. Regarding #6; It could, but I would tend to doubt it. Grex has lots of other things going for it.
re #6 Isn't Ivars in the process of getting wifi throughout all of Ann Arbor? What's the point of dialup then?
Dunno, maybe none. But wifi isn't all over Washtenaw County yet, and when it is I doubt it will be free.
"Late last week, the Washtenaw County Board approved Wireless Washtenaw Advisory Board's recommendation of 20/20 Communications to cover the entire county with wireless by the end of 2007. This includes Ann Arbor, the home of University of Michigan and future home of Google's Adwords division. The wireless network will be free for speeds up to 85kbps and $35/month for 500kbps. 20/20 Communications estimates it will take around 6,000 radios to cover the county. This initiative is being funded without taxpayer dollars and is one of the most ambitious wireless deployments in the U.S. Will it succeed or will it fail? Check out the county's wireless website for updates on the project." -by Hemos on Mon Aug 07, '06 http://wireless.ewashtenaw.org/ Wireless Washtenaw is a county community coming together to provide free or lower-cost access to the Internet for anyone in Washtenaw County, regardless of their location or economic status. Perhaps the most exciting aspect of Wireless Washtenaw is that the extraordinary collaboration of the private and public sectors will mean that this wireless network will be available county-wide, with no taxpayer dollars spent on its construction, maintenance, and operation.
Yeah, but me thinks there will still be an excuse for not getting rid of the modems.
THanks for the news, Tod. On the contrary, Narthan, if that's really in place by 2007, and it works and covers all of Grex's local calling area, I don't see any point in having dial-in lines anymore. But if we drop them, we'll have to update with the IRS, and I do think there's a possibility we'll lose our 501(c)3 status. I don't really know what the odds are.
Mark, while you probably wouldn't do this, I do see people fighting to keep dialup access alive.
Its a matter of board responsibility to assume fiduciary responsibility. If part of that means managing expenses wisely then perhaps the board should revisit the logic behind the dialups. It might make more sense to align Grex with the WifiMax initiative.
The Board does monitor dialin line usage and has been dropping the number of dialins as demand has dropped. Since they're the ones who have the fiduciary responsibility, as Todd points out, and have been conscientious about it, I think it makes more sense to leave the decisions re dialin lines in the board's hands rather than make a member initiative out of it. So I won't endorse taking this proposal to a member vote.
Where can members view records of line usage?
The last command. The tty's are 00 and 01. Not looking very completely I think we have about 53 accounts that have used the dialins this year, with seven of them being members as of right now. Given our local user base, I'd say thats significant. We probably want to stare at the usage more closely and see if we should take one of the lines down, but it sure looks like we have folks using the dialins now. Remember, we've shaved lines off before. I believe we were at 13 dialins at one point, with several reductions in that number over time. As technology changes, so does Grex (slowly). The wireless plan for coverage of Washtenaw county may be a real change for us, who knows.
Probably the question will be, how cheap/feasible will wireless access be for users of obsolete/salvaged computers?
re #18 Thanks STeve re #19 USB wifi isn't too mysterious
Re #20 par. 2: My one experience with USB wifi is that it isn't all that fast when it works at all, requires much shifting of reception hardware to be able to get a signal at all, and requires some driver configuration. Beyond that, the sort of people who are dialing in exclusively are possibly using computers without USB ports.
For the love of everything decent in the world, why would people waste so much electricity running any dinosaur that doesn't at least have a USB port let alone one that relies on a dialup modem?
Because they got it for free off the corner, or from a friend.
I know of at least 3 regular contributors to Grex who are limited to that kind of equipment.
Maybe Grex should redirect some resources from paying for dialup to donating newer equipment to the needy?
re 22 I have a couple of those dinosaurs at home.
Here's a possible idea: Can we use an existing dial-up provider's terminal server(s) to allow users to dial in and telnet to Grex that way? I know it's (technically) possible. At my last job (admin at a dial-up ISP about 4 or 5 years ago) I did just this. I used it for business customers who wanted UUCP over modem. (They would dial into our terminal server, log in with an assigned username and password, and our terminal server would patch them over to the UUCP port on our mail machine -- no PPP or SLIP involved.) We were running 3com Total Control HiPer ARC. I even set up an account that would telnet you to my personal Linux server. You could dial in with HyperTerminal, log in to this account, and it would immediately telnet you over there. I even did this when traveling, using our (outsourced through MegaPOP) nationwide access numbers. I could dial into MegaPOP's server using HyperTerminal, login with this account, and the MegaPOP terminal server would telnet me to my server. If I recall correctly, it was a matter of using some special RADIUS attributes to make it work. But it did. The real question here would be price as compared to what is being paid now for the two modem lines. Potentially, Grex could go as far as using MegaPOP (or some similar service) to do this, and providing nationwide dialup (terminal based -- not PPP) access to Grex. Or, possibly just use a local ISP? The major difference (for end-users) is going to be that they will have to deal with two logins and passwords. The first to log into the ISP's terminal server (and obtain a connection to Grex), and second with their actual Grex login. Just thought I would mention it.
re #27 Yea, Grex could totally point people towards Merit or MichNet if there was a relationship there.
I don't think anyone would touch the contracting of two modems. However, its worth the cost of an email to Provide.net, our ISP.
Right. I wouldn't expect anyone to entertain the idea of contracting for just two modems. When we were researching nationwide dial-up providers, a lot of them had insane minimum commitments. At least, insane for us. We were a (relatively) small ISP, most of our customers were local -- and we just wanted to provide a convenient way for them to use the service when traveling. I was thinking along the lines of Grex leveraging some ISP's existing infrastructure. It would eliminate the need for Grex to pay for two dedicated lines (which probably sit unused most of the time.) It would also potentially (assuming that the provider doesn't limit the number of simultaneous logins to the account) allow Grex to have more than 2 users dialed in at any given time. Obviously, dial-up demand has decrased over the years -- I have personally seen Grex go from 13 lines down to 2. However, for the rare instance that 3, 4, or even 5 people want to dial in at the same time, this could be handy. I agree that Provide.net is probably the best place to ask first, since Grex already has a relationship with them.
I dial in to grex several times a day and get a busy signal maybe once a month so one line should be enough, except that one of the two modems is sometimes not working. What does a non-pcmcia wireless ethernet card cost new, or used? The linux I use would need a different kernel to support wireless but I could probably figure it out. How stable is a wireless connection? Would it work in a house with metal roof and aluminum vapor barrier? The neighbor offered to let us attempt to connect to his for practice. My linux does not support USB but does support ethernet connections to a DSL modem (I have used it that way via ethernet cable).
There are access points you can get that sort of act as "boosters" to the signal; the access point would "connect" to the wireless network, and then you could run ethernet from there to a switch or cheap hub to conenct your machines.
Re 32, are you saying I would buy an access point, put it where the signal was stronger outside the house, and then run cable inside to a hub? (Which I presume would have to stay powered on all the time). I have never set up anything wireless. Our closest attempt at a network was via nullmodem cable and required both computers to be running in order for the second one to go online.
Yeah, pretty much.
What software do I need to run to access the hub from my linux computer? Do I get an IP number for the hub or access point?
The hub is just a dumb piece of electronics; you plug ethernet cables into it, and then cables into the ethernet adapter in your computer. In most home setups, there's a router that also has a builtin DHCP server that will hand out IP addresses.
The type of device you want is often called a wireless bridge. Some cheap access points support the functionality with replacement homebrew firmware that you can download from the internet -- that's probably more economical than paying for a device designed for the purpose because economies of scale make designing, marketing, and selling the much more popular access points cheaper than the fairly uncommon bridge devices.
The only software you need is the driver for the network card. Linux-compatible network cards are usually supported by the kernel by default anyway. Of course, with that minimalist linux you run you might have to (re-)compile the kernel with the right driver.
I have linux support for all the network cards that I am using in my computers, and I have a few hubs (I can connect two computers via non-crossover cables plugged into the powered-on hub). What do I plug the hub into and does that also need power? A router with software in it? I use the same linux kernel for various computers, and insmod the module for the network card (rtl8139 or tulip or 3c59x...). Then use ifconfig to assign an address to my own computer.
That's right. You would get a router that runs some software, though usually it sort of comes built-in. Or, someone else would run the router and you'd just have the wireless access point (that would be plugged in, yes) that would sort of bridge wirelessly to the network of the person who had the router.
Here is a diagram: <PC> | <Hub>-------<Wireless AP> ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( <Wireless Router>-. | | <PC> <Cable/DSL Modem>
The neighbor has a router, and apparently Washtenaw County will have the equivalent. What does a 'wireless access point' look like? We have a variety of things people gave us over the years into which we can plug ethernet cables, some of them labelled ADSL, some of them with antenna. There is something that came in a box and has an antenna, and also came with a pcmcia wireless ethernet card and a CD for Windows. Is that a hub or a router or an AP? Jim's son has something with an antenna that picks up a signal that is then fed to a desktop wireless ethernet card - is that an AP? If so, I will ask him more about them. What would a new or used one cost? Sort of a nuisance having to plug in two extra gadgets every time you want to go online, which might be in another part of the house (or leave two power adaptors running all the time wasting energy). Except for downloading large files we are happy with dialup and it is more stable.
A wireless access point looks like a modem with an ethernet jack, power jack, and one or two antennas. As for the things you have laying around, if you give us some make/models or model numbers, we might be able to help.
I will (tomorrow) dig out anything with an antenna and power supply that is not a radio. After we finishing sorting and freezing Chinese chestnuts. First things first. What would a new wireless access point cost? We currently pay nothing for dialup service and are happy with it.
Maybe around $20? for a Linksys WAP11 (802.11b). That is just a guess. But if you're happy with dialup, then what the heck? :-)
We have a Wireless -B Network Kit Router + Notebook Adapter. The bigger gadget has two antennas and a power supply cube and also in back four ethernet ports plus a fifth one with an ethernet cable in it. 24GHz. Linksys broadband router. Is this something that can both pick up and broadcast wireless signals, or just pick up signals over the included ethernet cable and then give you a choice of broadcasting them to a laptop computer or plugging in four desktop computers without an additional hub? The wireless card worked for someone in their laptop but not for us even with Win98, however the BIOS was screwed up at the time and we fixed it since (the modem would not work either in Windows, and does now). All-In-One Wireless Internet Sharing Solution from teh Worldwide Leader in Wireless Networking! Intended to share your high-speed internet connection with wired and wireless computers. Built-in 4-port Ethernet Switch and Wireless Access Point... Rates up to 11 MBps. I don't know why it was given to us, maybe they got a faster one? If this is what we need to pick up a wireless signal and get it to a desktop computer via ethernet cable, how would we use it with linux? We have a Windows CD for the router and for the PCMCIA card. Does Windows transfer the software to the router?
I would say it is likely they got a faster one. I gave my mom my wireless B router after I upgraded. The router (bigger gadget) is designed to be connected to a broadband modem (cable or DSL), and then share that connection to a variety of computers. However, I am not sure if that router is able to act as a wireless bridge. Here is how you can use it: Plug the device. In the back there is a reset button you may been a paperclip to push. Push and hold for 30 seconds to reset the router's configuration. Plug a computer into one of the ethernet ports, but not the port labeled "WAN". Said computer should be configured to obtain an IP address using DHCP. Most likely, you will get an address of 192.168.1.something. You will want to use a web browser and go to 192.168.1.1 (or whatever the DHCP sets as your default gateway). I forget the default username/password, its something like 'admin' and no password, or no username with password 'admin', you might need to experiment. Once you get into the configuration screen you should be able to find out if it will work as a wireless bridge. If you have any more questions, feel free to post them to the new jellyware conference. :)
I phoned MCRS who said I needed a bridge, and not what we have (which is designed to broadcast but not receive a wireless signal). And that a wired connection was much more stable than wireless. I can run dhcp in linux and have plugged my own computer into someone's router and used it, but we have nothing to plug the router into. The paper documentation for our gadget mentioned nothing about picking up a wireless signal. We will continue trying to make the wireless pcmcia card work in Windows so we can at least download large files at the library. Or maybe they have a working USB port now to plug our 64MB memory stick into. The neighbor may not actually have a wireless setup, he was just thinking about setting one up so he could move his computer upstairs without running a cable. I looked up 'wireless access point' and they are now about 54MBits/sec and ours is 11MBits/sec. More than adequate to get an 85Kbit/sec signal. How fast are most DSL lines?
1-5MBits/sec
So the 11Mbps type should work fine for internet purposes. The only ones I could find at ebay seemed to be cardbus (32-bit). I have a cardbus 11MBit model which may not work at all with my hardware. I found a long list of non-cardbus models which should work with linux but nobody was selling them. Where could I look other than ebay? Do any grexer have a really old pcmcia wireless ethernet card they don't want? The cardbus 11Mbps were asking $5 and no bids. We should try the cardbus one with Win98 again, now that we fixed the BIOS so the modem works. (The com ports were messed up somehow). Is it possible to go online with Win98 and connect via cable to a linux computer, then use linux online?
You can get a Netgear MA401 on eBay for $23 (Buy It Now including shipping). That works well in a 16-bit PCMCIA slot.
Thanks, online research suggests it is non-cardbus and works in linux with module orinoco_cs. Other people report having problems with it. It is not on the list of linux-compatible pcmcia devices (which is a bit out of date). Should a cardbus card work with a 200MHz computer, circa 1997? It appears to have come with Win95 on it and was upgraded to Win98 and we have the CD for Win98 for this card. Cardbus was standardized in 1996. It did not work for us in Win98 but neither did the modem, and we fixed that in BIOS.
You have several choices: