Agenda: Grex Board of Directors Meeting on Thursday, Nov 10, 2005
1. arrivals 6:30p
2. Opening Gavel Tap 7:00p
3. Treasurer's Report
4. Staff Report
5. Old Business
- PC Weasel
7. Schedule Next Meeting
8. New Business
9. Closing Gavel Tap
The board meeting will be held upstairs at at 7:00 p.m., at the
home of Mary an John Remmers, 19 Westbury Court, Ann Arbor. Anyone who
needs directions can call me at my work (734)477-1247 before 5:30p or on
my cell phone (734)754-3773 after that.
88 responses total.
"Upstairs"? Interesting tidbit.
I am going on record to request that the board review steve's performance as sysadmin at its next upcoming meeting. The numberous days of downtime reflects discredit on grex and its members. I charge steve with dereliction of duties. He has done a dismal job as a system administrator. If he does not have the time, will, or competence necessary to perform in this position, he should stepdown immediately or else be terminated.
If he chooses to step down, who will replace him? Maybe we should just give him a pay cut. *snort*
re 1 So the people downstairs don't smell the smoke.
re #3: I think that might be going a little too far. Perhaps we should just cancel that big promotion he's been expecting. re #2: seriously, though, unless it's a totally unsuccessful attempt at a joke your comment suggests a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of Grex's relationship with its sysadmins. We've been coasting on volunteer labor and emergency favors from an ever-shrinking pool of talent for a long time now. You are correct that STeve isn't supporting the system at this time but we never had any right to expect that he would. Scapegoat him for the system's problems if you want to (though it would be classier not to show such remarkable ingratitude for the work he contributed to the system before mounting work, family, and medical pressures led him to cut back) but unless you've got another sysadmin waiting in the wings it won't solve any of Grex's problems.
The PC Weasel card is again on the agenda as we're going to take another look at whether such a thing would help with out downtime and assist staff in keeping the system up. Someone (who wishes to remain anonymous) has offered to buy this card for Grex. We just need to figure out if it would be helpful and how it could best be connected to our hardware. One way to go is by dedicating it to one of our two existing dial-in lines. But first we'd need to run some data to see how utilized that second line is, at present. If anyone has any experience with using this hardware, please share it here. And a big "Thank You" to our anonymous donor.
Can we discuss updating the expiry on Grex's certificate to some point in the future so we don't keep getting notices about it from our browsers when we connect?
> If he chooses to step down, who will replace him? > but unless you've got another sysadmin waiting in the wings it > won't solve any of Grex's problems. He hasn't been very active or effective lately. so for all intend and purpose hes has abandon the position. Termination would be just a formality. Which leads to my next point. I'm pretty sure none of the staffers here is going to volunteer for the position so long as he is still listed as being in charge, simply out of respect. I do think there are staff that will step up to the plate if the position is vacant. The board needs to take the initiative. Also grex is sitting on a pile of money right now. I'm sure even if there are no volunteers to step forward, we could at least hire someone. oh, and while steve was active, I think he did a good job. I just think its time to move on.
Non-sysadmins have been rescuing grex when it crashes (remmers and gelinas and maybe others). I don't see that it matters who has what title.
I didn't realize Grex had a formal sysadmin position. I know That Other System Across Town has one, but I never heard of one on Grex before.
Maybe Grex should? Since titles are the only "pay" our staff get anyways, why not make them formal?
Regardless of whether you `fire' Steve of anyone else, I *do* think he shouldn't be afforded as much authority to make major decisions about the system as he has been.
re #10 Perhaps that is the problem with all the downtime? i.e. no sense of ownership/responsibility from tech volunteers Dan Cross brings up a very valid point: Ultimately, someone is making the big technical decisions. Someone on the tech staff needs to be present for these board meetings in order to provide a status and bridge for any gaps. I think the tech volunteers should informally agree with 100% concensus which of them is prepared to be the monthly meeting liason as well as "go to" during the downtimes.
I think paying someone would be a good idea. Not just any average Joe, though. Someone who knows enough about GreX who could fix the problem in a reasonable time slot.
Staff members do attend the BoD meetings and do report on the status, etc.
STeve has had the authority, as you put it, that he has because of his expertise and the willingness of those who understood the depth of that expertise to defer to it. I think it is important in so doing to also understand his biases and take them into account in making decisions on which his expertise is sought, and that principle applies to *whomever* is being relied on to inform technical decisions. I see no reason to dismiss STeve, and I see no reason why his absence or the lack of any kind of formal acknowledgement thereof would influence those who might take up the slack. Unless a person with root access does something to abuse that access or otherwise reflects malice or ill intent, as determined by the board, there is no logical reason whatever to exclude that person from being able to provide assistance to the system should they so choose. On the other hand, the root password should be changed periodically as a matter of basic security and just as I think we shouldn't refuse it to him if he asks, I don't think there is any obligation to make sure STeve has the new root password if he doesn't show enough interest in Grex to ask.
I spent about half a minute trying to come up with some way to make Eric look like a buffoon in this reply, and I couldn't think of anything, but I think this response will do just fine.
gelinas, are you just any average Joe, or smarter than the average Joe? ;-)
Personally, I think that Steve's reputation is overblown, but that's me. I do think it's fair to say that he's highly biased and has an unrealistic view of grex and how this system is actually used. I think that technical decisions based on those biases have adversely affected grex and made it difficult to maintain. The decision to go with OpenBSD was primary based on the opinions of two staff members, and steam-rolled through by those two people, whom everyone else deferred to. Neither of them is particularly active on grex anymore. In retrospect, it seems pretty obvious that OpenBSD was a mistake. Steve doesn't seem to see how OpenBSD just isn't right for grex, even after all this time. I find that disturbing, and it leads me to question his credibility. Even the best people sometimes make mistakes due to personal bias, etc. Continuing to defer to them based on their previous performance is just folly; every major decision here is worthy of debate and justification. In the past, people have been upset when staff has been asked to justify their decisions, as if that would drive grex's volunteer staff to move on. I fail to see why this is a problem; if someone's truly got a good idea, it won't be hard for them to justify it, will it? If not, then a healthy debate will prevent it from getting implemented. After all, most of staff consists of gearheads who like to talk about this stuff, and may enjoy the process of justifying their decision (I do, which is why I sometimes seem so contenscious). If they don't want to justify their decision, then ask why that is? If they're so if thin-skinned, perhaps they're not cut out for the abusive environment of grex. If they're just making a decision out of bias with no real justification or balanced consideration of the alternatives, I'd rather that be exposed. In any case, do you *really* want that person making a decision largely unchallenged? Note, lest I seem to be unfairly picking on Steve; I don't think that he's the only person who should be challenged on his ideas. Every major grex decision should be debated. Hey, isn't that what this place is supposed to be all about?
(Note: if anyone is at all interested in the 'politics' of grex, the things cross just hinted at are interesting!)
Remind me again, Dan, what you've done for Grex?
Wow, that was an intelligent and thoughtful response, Mary. /me awards mary a gold star Way to treat the staff members.
re resp:21: I think that's more than a bit unfair. Dan has nearly tirelessly advocated for a different direction on the operating system. It is clear he has time to spend on Grex, and has both ability and willingness to contribute. He is also here. STeve is not. I don't agree with bashing STeve. He has contributed huge amounts of effort and ability to Grex. I am as sure as I can be that he's as frustrated that he can't do so now, as all of the rest of us combined. I don't know what's going on in his life but I hope things are getting better for him. It would be a secondary bonus to see him return to Grex. I don't agree with bashing Dan, either, or dismissing what he has to say. His comments over the years have been unvaryingly constructive from what I have seen. What does someone have to do in order to be perceived as a positive contributor to Grex, short of being a founder of the system? That is unattainable for most.
You have to be handsome and charismatic, like me!
By the way: I think Steve' ANdre DESERVED to be harshly criticized. Don't forget that he's used his official capacity on Grex to BLATANTLY LIE about users he has a personal grudge against. Not a nice person.
#21 of 25: by Mary Remmers (mary) on Wed, Nov 9, 2005 (17:34): Remind me again, Dan, what you've done for Grex? Roughly translated: I don't know what OpenBSD even looks like but I can at least bite Dan's ankles for bringing it up. I think tech decisions should be brought up by CONCENSUS of all staff volunteers. That means..just like a jury vote, all yay and nay should be presented when major decisions are made. Someone(krj?) said that tech staff is represented at Cyberspace Board meetings. I don't think it is represented "truthfully" i.e. not that there is malice or lying..but just that our full capacity for skilled and intelligent minds are not being fully presented unless all opinions are represented. I'm not going to bash STeve anymore than stating that I'd watched him argue for an hour over SIMMs chips on M-Net about 13 years ago at an Arbornet Board meeting. Nobody wanted to participate in the debate because his tact was "I'm the loudest and rudest." Maybe he's changed since then. I dunno. I don't care either way, actually. I think Dan and many others have valid contributions aond won't make kindergarden quips when they do. I'd expected better from Mary.
By the way: If whether or not someone's comments about Grex depends on how much they've contributed, which is basically what Mary seems to be saying in her comment (even though she has to a very serious extent argued the exact opposite in this very item!), then Mary should cede to Dan and cut it the fuck out with the discussion-freezing quips, since he's contributed a lot more than her, at least recently!
Yeah, that comment from Mary was totally uncalled for. She should save her irrelevant and mean-spirited comments for m-net.
I'm sure we're all working up a good endorphin buzz, but can I kill the mood by suggesting that we concentrate on the problems and not on scapegoating?
Regarding #21; Well, when you get down to it, not that much. And obviously,
my contributions (such as they were) weren't enough to merit much attention,
since you aren't even aware of them, you being like on the grex board and
all that. However, some include:
1) Rewriting the watch program for OpenBSD. That is, basically totally
gutting and rewriting it.
2) Writing the perl script that renumbered user ID's for the move to
OpenBSD.
3) Doing the same for group ID's.
4) Writing the script to change the permissions on users' files when the
system moved (and the UID's and GID's changed).
5) Writing the login_grexpass program that allows users to login using
grex's funky password hashing algorithm. Actually, that was a straight-
forward modification of an existing OpenBSD program, so perhaps it's
not fair to say that I really wrote it.
6) Rewriting and cleaning up a lot of the home-grown programs used here
on grex. That includes mostly cleaning up and modernizing various
C programs and shell scripts (in which, by the way, a bunch of bugs
were fixed, and old cruft accumulated from years on SunOS was removed).
I tried to do this under the rubric of a ``grexsoft'' effort where I
tried to get other members of the community to contribute to our
software, but no one else really pitched in. Eventually, I more or
less gave up. But I did check in a bugfix the other day.
7) I had something to do with figuring out how pf worked when we moved
to OpenBSD and figuring out how to do grex's funky ``you're not a
member and you can't access the Internet...'' stuff. But Joe Gelinas
really spearheaded that and I think my contribution amounted to reading
a man page and commenting or something of the like.
8) I'd like to think that a lot of my comments and advocating when we
moved to nextgrex were helpful. I thought a lot about how big to make
partitions, what to put on them, what services (read: daemons) to run,
and stuff like that. Ultimately, very little of that actually got
adopted, I guess.
9) I fixed the group file when we moved to OpenBSD (by getting rid of
continuation lines).
10) On oldgrex, I wrote a program that automatically and continuously
walked over the filesystem and looked for files that were known to be
part of things like eggdrop, psybnc, etc (by means of looking at file
sizes and computing MD5 checksums of the contents of files and comparing
them with a database of sorts; if a file matched, it was automatically
deleted. This helped cut down on some of the disk space problems).
11) I donated an UltraSPARC 2 and an UltraSPARC 1/something to grex when
we first started thinking about nextgrex, plus a 9GB disk. That was
a few hundred dollars worth of hardware. I don't know whatever
happened to that hardware; I think Marcus Watts took it for his
personal use.
12) General staff type stuff: cleaning up disk space when necessary,
cleaning out the mail queue when spammers clogged it up, locking
accounts that were mailbombing and running hacker tools and driving
up the load average and things like that.
13) Installed various programs out of the OpenBSD ports collection.
Mindnight Commander, GPG, common lisp, doc++, all of that was me.
14) Worked on the exim setup a bit to try and cut down on the size of
the mail queue. I cleaned up a lot of stuff that was problematic
in the nightly security report (which, undoubtedly, no one actually
reads).
15) I installed RT for tracking bugs in grexsoft and, I had hoped, for
managing email to help@cyberspace.org, but no one else used it.
Maybe other things, but that's some of the bigger stuff. I did a lot of
various small things during the move to nextgrex, though Jan and Joe
really did most of the work. Obviously, like I said, it wasn't enough to
warrant much attention.
Okay, one issue at hand: the PC weasel card. I fail to see why this is necessary: We *know* why grex is crashing. There are bugs in the operating system. Throwing hardware at it won't fix that. The key is to upgrade (hopefully to a better operating system).
We don't *KNOW* that that's why Grex is crashing, but even if you are correct the PC weasel card (boy, what a stupid name!) is worth discussing unless you assume that Grex will never ever crash again or that someone will always be available in Ann Arbor to reset it.
Actually, we do know that, because that's what the logs have said.
I'm not sure I see the conflict here. We know we need to upgrade the OS and in fact, most of the work for that has already been completed and will be rolled out soon. There have been a lot of fixes between 3.5 and 3.8 and there is some reason to believe that the bug or exploit causing the crashes will have been addressed. If it is not, at least we are on a recent revision and back in a position to take our debugging data and get some assistance from the OpenBSD community. Having (hopefully) reduced the number of crashes, there remains a separate issue of system access when it does crash. Adding remote console is a great way to reduce or possibly eliminate the need to visit provide.net in person when grex does crash. It allows recovery outside of provide.net's business hours and increases the pool of staff who can help recover the system when this occurs. Had this been in place already, any one of us could have jumped in remotely to recover the system after the recent crashes and with the global distribution of current staff members, we have pretty good timezone coverage. Locally based staff otherwise lacking the time to hike out to provide.net might still have time to fix it if they could connect to the console from home.
I think the one thing that ties steVE and dan cross together is that they've both squashed my account several times. and they enjoyed it.
I'd just like to see more energy devoted to solving the root problem of the present instability, rather than adding hardware to sort of cover it up.
Yeah, let's jack up that energy level some! Dan, you haven't a clue.
Don't take that personally, Dan. I have a feeling Mary's that rude with everyone.
Fine, Mary. Consider my services to grex ended. After all, I never did anything, right?
Regarding #38; Yes, I think you're right, but that's hardly the point. Mary has systematically gone out of her way to be confrontational and rude to me for a few years now, and I'm frankly just sick of it. If my contributions around here aren't valued, then why should I continue making them?
Well, if you want to leave grex or stop volunteering, that's your affair, but I think that we could do with all the help we can get, and there's no need to stop grexing or volunteering just because one person - Mary - objects. Tell her to get stuffed, mate.
I think the thing is, grex is simply not interested in my help. Oh well. To be honest, I *don't* have time for it anymore, anyway. But, I tried to give what I thought were well-reasoned and rational arguments for my views, and all I got back was vitriol.
Don't equate Mary with Grex. She may epitomize much of what is wrong or distasteful about grex, but the are not one and the same.
I'm going to try to keep this away from personal comments while still sharing how I see this issue. STeve is highly qualified and a dedicated volunteer. Grex wouldn't be here if it wasnt' for STeve and Marcus. If he is no longer able to give as much, so be it. I miss him and wish him well. Did he make some decisions that now look like the wrong choices? Probably. But I was there for at least some of the discussion regarding which operating system to use. If anyone felt this was a huge mistake, they sure kept that quiet. Preferences, maybe, but not a mistake. And it's the nature of the beast that the more involved you are, the more decisions you make, the greater your chances for a misstep or two. I'm very greatful to STeve that he's done so much for Grex that he's made some mistakes. Some staff have been doing a lot of work in the background here, not asking for applause or recognition. I don't blame folks for not knowing about this. But it's happening. Anyone considered staff should be aware of the problems and ongoing efforts. Is volunteer staff a precious commodity at the moment? You betcha. I think the emotional and social payoffs of volunteering time for Grex have been tanking for the last few years. Lots of reasons. No idea of how to turn that around. But I'm pretty sure having your reputation described as "overblown" by another staff member, in a public forum, isn't what makes you want to give up yet another Saturday, installing software. I'd love to see better team spirit among a small group of staff who are supportive of each other. I agree with Dan that it's time we left Pico behind. I think there is general agreement that FreeBSD would be a better fit for Grex. I agree with him that in the past a few people tended to have more sway in our important decisions, but that's not their fault. Not really.
Ack, "grateful". Really should use a spellchecker and proof.
Gee, that's ironic. Mary, you do realize that I *was* on grex staff and am now *not*, because of the way that *I've* been treated? I'm no slouch at this computer stuff myself, but to have my good advice continually ignored and not even have my ideas given any sort of discussion, and then to be insulted for it to boot, is just too much to take. Grex isn't worth it, because you and others like you haven't made it worth it. You have failed. Way to preserve that precious volunteer staff commodity! I think you're the one who hasn't a clue, personally.
I was completely aware you were on staff.
So I guess that whole volunteer staff commodity thing isn't that important after all, huh?
You are still clueless. I'm not sure I'm the best person to help you out here. Venting, on STeve, as you did, here, was wholy inappropriate. Until you see that, it's all going to be everyone else ignoring and underappreciating you.
Dan, please don't go away. Grex is a good place to practice ignoring insults. Most of us appreciate your work.
I appreciate Dan's work also.
I agree 100% with #43 Dan don't leave...your services are appreciated. :)
Regarding #49; If you'd read what I wrote without your blinders on, perhaps you'd have read the part where I said that I wasn't commenting *just* on Steve, and went to lengths to say that I wasn't ``venting'' on Steve. Maybe it's your anti-military bigotry showing here, Mary, but you've had it out for me for a while. Fine. You've got your wish. But, I'm really not the clueless one here, you are. What's more, you're a hypocrit and rude. Mary, you are the problem.
I appreciate those who appreciate my work. Like I said, it hasn't been too much. But frankly, I just don't have time for it, and I don't feel like putting up with the Mary's of grex any more. I honestly don't see why anyone would want to put any effort into this machiine.
I think I speak for many when I say we understand your time is limited and commitments many. We'll only hope sometime in the future you might change your mind and come back.
Dan, you've done some good work here. It's not always appreciated, but, well, welcome to Grex. Mary has done good work here, too. Give her what's due to her. And STeve has done more technical work than anybody
Steve' ANdre's most recent work has been related to using his official status on Grex to send libelous, completely false e-mails to the aministrators of other systems where those users have accounts. Dan Cross is much more of an asset to Grex than that!
still bitter about the GMail fiasco ?
Steve' ANdre is bad news for Grex.
steVE touches GreX in a very bad way :(
I hope SteVE strokes out again.
And I hope he' gains another 100 pounds. He deserves it.
Dan is just the type of person we need on staff. He is anything but clueless. Most of all he has contributed to Grex A LOT. Steve once did, too, but that was - admittedly - leap years ago. John (remmers) has been doing quite a lot of work recently, also, and mcnally, too... probably others I have missed (my apologies, my interest in the decaying Grex community has seen me increasingly less on here - when it is actually online!)..... I think it is simplistic to blame others, goes for all of us - even worse holding personal grudges which blinds reality so blaringly - so I will just say grow-up peoples... If we move to a less archic operating system, something like FreeBSD - MacOSX - or a more vanilla linux system - I can guarantee you will see more staffers with the necessary knowledge and interest contributing, including yours truly. You will also see a lot more support readily available from the OpenSource codebase community, and I dare say a more reliable, useable system.
Well, if nothing else, this has been way more responses to a grex BoD meeting item than I've even seen. :-)
shit, son. you're right!
Just saw this discussion for the first time. STeve, Mary and Dan have all done invaluable things for Grex. They care about Grex, and have (different) visions for Grex. Like many people, they occasionally screw up and often disagree. None of them are clueless. All of them are assets to Grex. I like and respect them all, and will continue to disregard the occasional mistake, like misplacing a filesystem or participating in the name-calling in this item.
Well, at least someone is an adult around here.
Shutup pottyface
I feel cowed by Jan's maturity. :-)
You've only done invaluable things here, Dan.
67 and 68 are just being pissy because Jan didn't praise them as well.
#67 is pissy?
Yeah.
re #71 Praise for?
in the minutes of this borg meeting .. where was the Q & A about 'were teh monthly backups accomplished?' borg abdicating knowlege of the necessity of such a confirmation in the face of *such* a huge, imminent danger action to be attempted in teh very near future demonstrates a pathetically rudderless insiders-cabal. where was teh oversight?
I think we should consider going to a for-pay, professionally hosted Grex system, where all of the money that comes in goes to the company that keeps the hardware and software running. Of course, we'd lose dial-in capability and access to the shell and party, but we wouldn't be dependent on the kindness of volunteers. Lots of communities thrive on such platforms.
I don't think we're there yet. But I see it coming. And insisting the board rule the staff, dictating they do more, better, and now, is a great catalyst to that environment.
Re#75 Board policy generally defers to staff on most technical issues except where those involving significant cost or steps into policy issues. It was, in fact, confirmed that a backup was taking place before the start of the upgrade. I know because I asked the question myself during the meeting. This is not a question of inadequate oversight. The system was for the most part backed up. The backup for the mail spool failed due to a simple mistake that could have happened to anyone.
re 76 - then grex becomes just another web site. The shell and the party attract new users, not the BBS. Some of those shell and party users find their way to BBS, but new people don't generally just wander into the grex BBS.
when do the minutes get posted?
Re 79, we started on grex because of free dial-in email, then I got curious about the bbs and Jim started playing with the shell account programs.
Re #80: The last board meeting was November 10. No minutes yet. They're usually posted sooner than this.
re 81 - If you were trying to refute my point, you failed. "email" qualifies under the "shell" access. In grexes case, it's not that different from having access to a C compiler. Just another unix program/service that is part of pretty much every unix system out there.
re #76 That was tried before..it was called ARBORNET. Remember?
hah
btw, how is teh atempt at restoring from those old 8mm tapes steve was talking about in another item? mcnally and i are not the only ones who could use some retrieval ... even if it is imcomplete (up to date) but more importnatly, ancient/archival.
TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE
aside from the 'newness' [[g]] caused by 'dork,' ... what about those 8 mm tapes ????? please see #86 and previous
You have several choices: