Have you noticed that when you google stuff, you never get the Grex
conferences as a result? That's because we have grex configured to request
search engines like google from indexing it.
It would be trivial to change this. Grex could be opened up to google in
seconds. Any selective opening, like opening only certain conferences or
certain items would be much harder, but perhaps not impossible.
Grex already has a feature where you can make all your responses invisible
to anonymous readers (like Google). ("shy y" adds you to this list, "shy n"
removes you).
Do we want to open Grex conferences to google?
I think it would be a dramatic change. Make Grex less of a dim little
backwater on the Internet, vastly more visible. That has it's pluses and
minuses, obviously. But it's been a long time since we've thought about this.
Grex has changed. The net has changed. We've changed. Where do we stand
on this today?
71 responses total.
Go for it.
I agree.
As long as we could change our minds later, it might be worth an experiment.
You want to remove ROBOT from blocking search engines? I'm against that.
I think this would be great although we might want to restart and archive conferences first. There are lots of posts that were made by people with the understanding that grex wasnt indexed by search engines. Many of those people are no longer regular users of grex so they might not see any warnings we post here.
There are lots of posts that were made by people with the understanding that grex wasnt indexed I agree 100%
Restarting lots of existing conferences, many of which haven't ever been restarted before, seems like a bad idea. Why not just issue an announcement of the change in policy, and allow agora to be indexed starting with the summer edition. We can see if that does any good and, if other confs want to also be indexed, they can do restarts as well.
Wasn't the present policy (no indexing) the result of a member vote? Certainly the issue was discussed at length in connection with a very contentious vote. I don't have time to dig back & try to identify it right now.
Maybe popcorn's scribble script should be offered to the userbase for 1 week prior to removing the member voted and instated robot file.
I'm not in favor of the idea.
I am also not in favor of the idea.
Which idea; #0 or #9?
#0.
Go 4 it.
I think the idea of allowing search engines to index a Grex conference is a good experiment to undertake, subject to some restrictions as suggested above. Only Agora should be indexed, and only after the conference has been restarted, and not including any old versions of Agora. There should be a reminder header on every item indicating that this is happening and that it is a NEW feature, highlighting the change for those who may be or have been concerned about it. Linked items from other conferences, if at all possible, should not be indexed, or if that is not possible, then linking items from other conferences into Agora should be prohibited, at least for a trial period of say, three months (the duration of a single iteration of Agora). Then, linked items should only be indexed if they include the same header announcement I referred to above. Users should be given fair notice of the extent of the obscurity of their posts. No post on Grex is any less public than any other post anywhere else, in theory, but the reality is that Grex itself is fairly obscure among all the noise and fury of the internet, and indexing will raise awareness of Grex and of the content of its conferences far beyond anything we have ever considered. This can be a very good thing, and this can be a very bad thing, depending on your perspective. It is eminently reasonable that those people who wish their postings to be read only by the small community of Grex conference participants should be given as clear an indication as possible that their expectations will no longer have even the flimsy basis they once had. So, to make a short story long, we should do this; slowly, gradually, gently and loudly.
How can you be "gentle" yet "loud" ? Pleas demonstr8
A reminder in every item? Bleah! It's silly enough that we have a reminder that the conference has been restarted every time we join and we can join winter for the old version when it's been months since the restart.
This is a major change, and it is far more valuable for Grex to make sure that people who might be used to things being a certain way are fully and properly informed of the change than it is to make sure that you never see the same text twice if you don't want to. I suppose an alternative would be to include a link or an instruction in the header that would allow users to turn off the warning by indicating understanding and acceptance of the new practice. Anyway, I'd suggest the warning only be in place for three months, which is plenty of time for existing users who may not conference regularly to be considered to have been reasonably notified.
It's not that major. I typed this into google: http://www.google.ca/search?q=naftee and the third result is this : http://www.grex.org/grexdoc/archives/minutes/2004-09-10 which is a GreX item, found on google, without any permission asked. The most interesting was the output of ric(-k)'s finger programme showing up on google.
I think that starting this new accessibility is an excellent idea, for Agora only, starting with the summer Agora.
(1) The robots are currently blocked only from the conferences, not
other Grex pages.
(2) Yes, the current policy was the result of a contentious vote.
(3) I'd suggest that people who don't want their responses indexed should
use the "shy" command, not the scribble command.
I like the idea of indexing only selected conferences, with the policy
that the conference must be restarted before indexing is enabled.
I like the idea, but I don't know of an easy way to implement it. The
files used to control indexing aren't that good at fine distinctions,
and the distinction between two different backtalk conferences can be
pretty fine. I'd have to think about it.
Hmmm...I think the cleanest way to implement this is to get rid of the robots.txt file and use <META NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="NOINDEX,NOFOLLOW"> tags on all pages that should not be indexed. Of course, this requires changes to an awful lot of backtalk pages. I could alternately create a copy of backtalk that generates normal pages except that links to indexable pages are given as links to the copy and links to non-indexable pages are given as links to the main backtalk. The robots.txt file would be set up to allow indexing of the copy, but not the main backtalk program. Might be easier, because I need to change fewer pages, but a fundamentally kludgier approach.
How do you apply "shy y" if you use Backtalk? Does it mark your posts as being unGoogleable retroactively? Can we create a test conference which is Googleable, perhaps called "Google Agora" or something, and try opening that one first?
Can I suggest someone whip up a quick man page for the undocumented "shy" command?
re 21 The web page is an exact copy of a GreX item. What's the difference?
Yes, how does one use the shy command? I tried it and got "Cannot open /home/janc/src/backtalk/shylist." Or does it only work in backtalk? If that is the case what do those of us that do not use backtalk and don't want anonymous readers seeing our responses do?
Do we need to add a level of shyness here, call it "very", that hides your comments from both anonymous readers and robots, change shy "y" so it only hides comments from robots, then make the "y" everyone's default (except change the current "y" crowd to "very") as the experiment begins? I think that many people says things in our conferences that they might not want to share (via Google) with someone like an employer...
Sounds like shy is broken. Permission issue probably. I need to look at that. "shy y" means that your responses won't be visible to anonymous readers, including bots. "shy n" returns you to normal. Yes, it's retro-active. If you are on the shy list, all your past and future responses are hidden. I'm not sure Walter's suggestion is practical. It's hard to tell bots from other anonymous readers. I'd have to base it on the User Agent string sent by the browser/bot and there are an awful lot of browser/bots out there.
I wish shy were pro-active :(
Re 28: permissions may be a problem, but the immediate problem seems to be the specified path. /home/janc doesn't seem to exist.
So, all the instances of polytwerp calling me a paedophile will be googlable? great.
Yea, "Rick Root" will show up with paedophile on google
lolz
I'm in favor of the idea. IIRC, minutes have always been searchable. I'd like to see it start with an Agora restart, or with a conference that volunteers (by vote within the conference and an agreeable fw). I think it needs a member vote however, especially if we are experimenting with Agora. Ric's comments started some ideas in my mind. It seems that we might have some users who are willing to be members of a conf that has a somewhat more active fw than is traditional, leaning toward a "moderator" level of involvement. Could we have an experimental conference lead the way? One that was clearly intended to be a public Web conversation pit, and inteneded as a marketing tool for Grex?
btw, if you're going to publish conferences, you should place google ads on the pages - at least for people who are not logged in. Could be a nice source of revenue if the item threads are indexed well by google.
I agree that this is a big enough change that putting it to a member vote is a good idea. I also *really* like the idea of putting google ads on the pages although I dont know if anyone else would agree
I would consider google ads or any ads in the same category as school vending machines and I would be willing to pay higher dues to avoid it even though it does not affect me personally since I don't access grex by web.
Google ads are dangerous and could link people to spyware sites
I suppose people who wished to hide their identity even beyond what is already in place could just create pseudos for themselves, using newuser. Oh wait...
Grex could always start requiring a National ID.
Do Google ads pay only for click-throughs, or based on impressions (times served)?
I think they pay for click-throughs but I am not sure. I think polygon uses them on his site.
Google pays per click. I have google ads on my blog and some other pages, I've made about $210 in the last month or so. Polygon uses them too.
I think ads are things for which the Grex world is not prepared.
Don't speak rashly. If it's possible to only place the ads on pages displayed to users who are not logged in, then Grex can benefit from google indexing of items, without affecting any current user of grex. Google text ads are unobtrusive, and surprisingly effective - much more so than banner ads, because the google text ads are usually relevant to the page they're being displayed on. Without displaying them to users who are logged in, they would only be effective if grex items showed up in Google or other search engines. If the conferences were well indexed, I could see that revenue leading to anywhere from $3 - $20/month, again, without impacking users who are already logged in. Who knows, maybe more. Certain items could lead to higher ad rates. Enter an item and have a discussion about Misothelioma, and you'll probably get $5 or so for every ad that's clicked on! Heck, turn on the ads for grex users, and encourage grexers to click on the ads. Grex users know that clicking on the ads would support Grex. I'd do it.
Google ads would be effective on Grexers? Are you thinking of selling Dr.Demento boxsets and Dr.Who mugs?
I would much rather pay more per month instead of going commercial.
How much more?
I'd pay if there were no ID rule.
You can naftee. You can pay without being a member.
re 46 - not necessarily, but when someone google searches something, and views an item on grex, they may click on one of the content-appropriate text ads in search of more information on the same topic. If you're going to make conferences google-able, you might as well take advantage of the extra hits (if any). I mean, those people coming in via search engines to specific items are going to be looking for information, not Grex. They may stick around or not if they're intrigued enough, but not likely. To most people it probably wouldn't be any different from any other message board or mailing list archive out there.
If conferences are going to be on google then make sure everyone knows first.
Can we like, purge all conferences before putting them on Google?
Is this the chase-your-own-tail item?
re 50 I can, but I won't pay until the ID rule is rescinded.
Re: #55. You do know this isn't Grex's rule. It's Michigan's rule...
re #56 Cite that reference.
what tod said
MCL 450.2413: "The officer or agent having charge of the shareholder or membership records of a corporation shall make and certify a complete list of the shareholders or members entitled to vote at a shareholders' or members' meeting or any adjournment thereof. The list shall: (a) Be arranged alphabetically within each class with the address of each member or shareholder and the number of shares held by each shareholder." Grex has to verify your address in order to comply with this rule. This why a personal check, showing your address, is sufficient. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-450-2413
re resp:47, resp:48: Membership rates have been the same for all of Grex's existence. If Grex needs the money, I'd be willing to see the membership rate double. If Grex already receives all the money it needs, then I see no reason to use ads to generate revenue. How about some discussion on how much money Grex needs, what it would buy, and what it is needed for?
(1) I wouldn't be opposed to having the current Agora be open to Google. I don't want to see other conferences mass restarted. (I thought past Agoras were not available via Backtalk anyway? But I haven't looked.) (2) I wouldn't be opposed to experimenting with Google text ads. They are not intrusive and pay surprisingly well. However, Grex's financial needs are modest (especially now that we're not paying Pumpkin rent), and we do have 60+ paying members. Arguably, it's not necessary to go looking for ad revenue.
Re #61: Any conference that's still online at all is available via
Backtalk. This includes all the Agoras except for a few of the early
ones when we had a lot less disk; they were taken offline to free up space.
I've been taking a sabbatical from Coop for the last month and just
encountered this item.
Some history: Anonymous conference reading was authorized by member
vote in 1997. The discussion is in the coop9 conference, item 55, (for
Backtalk readers, the link is item:coop9,55) and was *very* contentious.
Quite an interesting read, eight years later. The motion itself does
not mention indexing by search engines, so I suppose one could say that
there's no official policy one way or the other on that. However, the
Backtalk developers (Jan Wolter, and also Steve Weiss at the time) made
it clear that if the proposal passed, the implementation would exclude
search engines, so I think members had that in mind when they voted.
I hope that the benefit of eight years' experience has helped put the
issue of anonymous reading in better perspective than it was in 1997.
I voted for the proposal because I saw it as a way of increasing
Grex's visibility on the web, and thus helping to attract new users, by
allowing people to sample Grex without committing to an account. I
don't think we have statistics on how much actual benefit anonymous
reading has been in that regard, but I think it's fair to say that none
of the dire consequences envisioned eight years ago have come to pass.
Allowing anonymous reading but requiring registration to post is common
practice in web forums, so Grex certainly isn't doing anything unusual here.
The web is a big and noisy place - much more so than in 1997. In
general I'm in favor of things that increase Grex's visibility and help
drive traffic - and hence users - to us. One of the best ways to do
that is to open up to search engine indexing, so I'm for it. Anybody
who doesn't want their own responses indexed can opt out via the "shy"
option.
One caveat: Sites that allow posting for free, and whose content is
indexed by search engines and permits posting of links, tend to attract
spammers. The fact that posting requires registration protects us from
spam to an extent, but since registration can be anonymous it doesn't
protect us perfectly. There's a protection that the major search
engines actually support (rel="nofollow" on the anchor tag, for HTML
techophiles) that tends to discourage spamming for reasons I won't get
into here. Nonetheless, conference spam might be something we'd have to
figure out how to deal with if we open up conferences to search engines.
Re advertising: Does the fact that we're a 501(c)3 non-profit restrict
what we can do? (Just asking; I don't know the answer.) In any case,
I'd be opposed to subjecting registered users to ads, even the
unobtrusive Google ones. As for anonymous readers - dunno. I'll have
to ponder Rick's idea.
I believe we need to get a certain percentage of our income from donations in order to maintain our 501(c)3 status. I want to say it's 33%, but I could be way off.
I do not like the idea of chasing ad revenues just because we can. I don't see a need for more money for Grex. I don't see what we would use more money for if we had it. Aside from future upgrades and paying the monthly Internet bills, we don't have expenses, do we? What do we *want*? Give me that first, then let's discuss raising more money. Is there anything Grex wants money for? Paid staff? Advertising? A bigger faster computer or better Internet connection? What? If we needed more money, I'd be more willing to increase membership amounts than advertise. But I think we're fine right now.
Is Grex in trouble financially?
We have $100 per month in recurring expenses, and $3000 in the bank. I don't think we're in trouble financially.
your estimate is way off, jeep
I don't think it is.
Our fixed expenses are around $150.00 a month right now.
Right - John, our two monthly expenses are $100 for colocation and about $45 for phone lines. Plus a few other miscellaneous things that occur only once a year. I think Grex is in much better shape financially than it was before we moved. I'm not too worried about it right now. I'd always like to see more members, but at our current level I think we'll be operating in the black. (Note - I haven't figured this out rigorously, and don't have time to do so right now.) So I guess I agree with jep. Let's talk about how people would like to improve Grex, and if we get a sense that it will take money to do so, then talk about raising it.
TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE
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