Grex Oldcoop Conference

Item 235: Vandalism at grex

Entered by keesan on Mon Jan 10 17:08:34 2005:

How can we deal with vandalism?
20 responses total.

#1 of 20 by keesan on Mon Jan 10 17:13:05 2005:

Is it possible to put a limit on the percentage of cpu time used by a single
process (say 5%?) or the number of times a single process can be run at one
time?  I would suggest exempting a few basic processes like bash.  Also can
we restrict the number of logins from one source at one time?


#2 of 20 by mooncat on Mon Jan 10 17:51:36 2005:

What source do you mean? As in an IP limit? Or something tracing back 
further than the stop just prior to Grex? I can see either of the above 
being really problematic- and not necessarily helping decrease 
vandalism.

And I have no idea if process size can be limited.


#3 of 20 by keesan on Mon Jan 10 18:01:17 2005:

Some way to keep the same vandal from logging in multiple times under
different names (or even under the same name).  Then restricting the number
of times a process can be run each time someone logs in.  The most recent
vandal was running the same process at least 20 times, probably 50-100.
If you restrict a process to 5% of cpu time that will not help if someone runs
in 20 times at the same time. The previous vandal was running one process that
took up 98% of cpu time.  How would you suggest blocking this sort of
vandalism?


#4 of 20 by cross on Mon Jan 10 18:08:23 2005:

The easiest thing is to get Robocop back up and running.  Jan is working
on that, but it's taking a bit of time; the old version was highly turned
to the environment of the Sun, and grex is now much different in terms
of its internal structure.


#5 of 20 by keesan on Mon Jan 10 20:45:06 2005:

How does robocop work?  
And until it works again, what is the best way to notify someone who can
quickly deal with vandalism, if not emailing staff@grex.org?


#6 of 20 by gelinas on Mon Jan 10 20:46:41 2005:

E-mail staff@grex.org and be patient.

Staff deals with things as quickly as they can.  Sometimes, that won't be very
quickly at all.


#7 of 20 by steve on Mon Jan 10 22:15:48 2005:

   Vandals are nothing new on Grex.  As an open system, the founders had
the idea what we needed to be secure as people would be beating on us.  I
think we underestimated the amount of beating that would go on, but still,
we've done very well over the years.

   If we want to stop the vandals we have to close all of Grex's open
aspects, give a menu system to do things and probably eliminate email.
I don't think thats what Grex is.

   It is definitely the case that 99%+ of the vandals now have little
idea of what they are doing, and often can be seen bringing over 
programs for the wrong OS or machine type, etc.  

   We have various tools to help out, and OpenBSD is really second to
none in terms of security.



#8 of 20 by cross on Tue Jan 11 02:53:25 2005:

I disagree.  Plan 9 is more secure, but probably because it's a system
that's an order of magnitude smaller and is worked on by a much more
talented group of people than OpenBSD.  C'est la vie.


#9 of 20 by keesan on Tue Jan 11 03:12:58 2005:

How would Robocop have stopped the recent vandalism?


#10 of 20 by cross on Tue Jan 11 05:25:46 2005:

Robocop looks for users using excessive amounts of any given resource (memory,
CPU, etc) and kills all his processes.


#11 of 20 by steve on Tue Jan 11 06:32:58 2005:

   Has plan9 been audited the way OpenBSD has?  I don't think so, from
what I've read of it.  The continuing, relentless anal checking of
things over and over again is one of the great points about this
op system.  Perhaps there are other groups doing this on other
platforms, but I haven't heard about it.


#12 of 20 by remmers on Tue Jan 11 12:25:35 2005:

(I thought that Plan 9 was mainly good for generating papers about
operating systems.  ;-)


#13 of 20 by cross on Tue Jan 11 14:12:51 2005:

I'm sorry, but I'm really not all that impressed by the `auditing' done
by the OpenBSD people.  The code rewriting they do just isn't that good.


#14 of 20 by albaugh on Tue Jan 11 23:29:53 2005:

Wasn't Plan 9 written, like, in outer space?  ;-)


#15 of 20 by steve on Wed Jan 12 00:54:08 2005:

   Heh.  That sounds like an interesting discussion item in garage or
somewhere else like that, Dan.


#16 of 20 by cross on Wed Jan 12 01:43:49 2005:

Regarding #14; By Ed Wood.

Regarding #15; Fair enough.


#17 of 20 by janc on Wed Jan 12 03:45:21 2005:

Many of the vandal problems we've seen recently would have been trapped
and killed by robocop on the old Grex.  I have ported robocop to the new
Grex, but it needs more debugging and tuning.  Right now it has a
holster full of blanks.  It only logs problem users instead of killing
them.  I need to do more work on it before it is ready for live ammo.


#18 of 20 by cyfapunk on Sat Jan 15 12:09:36 2005:

Sindi, up until just now I would have been all for limiting
the use of resources (I was thinking of suggesting that the
use of "lynx" be banned - if someone can telnet to Grex surely
they can browse from their own system more easily).

However, while playing nethack, I got sick of the poor I/O
so I logged in again and ran top to see if I could see anything
that could account for the poor I/O. The result was nothing.
What was odd was that while once seesion appeared to be hung
the other worked just fine and vice versa. So I can only conclude
that its a hardware issue with either the NIC or the cable modem.

Does netstat report any network problems, for example?


#19 of 20 by keesan on Sat Jan 15 14:01:44 2005:

I dial in to grex and use links and lynx.  If I telnet instead there is often
a lot of lag.   Lynx is much faster at grex than it is over my modem.  Have
you tried dialing in to grex and playing nethack?  I find there are more
sudden freeze-ups during a telnet than a dialin.


#20 of 20 by jesuit on Wed May 17 02:15:24 2006:

TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE


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