Grex Oldcoop Conference

Item 226: Cyberspace Communications finances for December 2004

Entered by aruba on Mon Jan 3 23:04:23 2005:

Here is the treasurer's report on Cyberspace Communications, Inc. finances 
through December 31st, 2004.

Beginning Balance     $3,235.52

Credits                 $420.00         Member contributions
                          $1.59         Interest on our savings account
                   ------------
                        $421.59

Debits                   $84.43         Pumpkin Rent for January
                         $61.02         Electricity for December
                         $90.71         Phone Bill
                        $135.00         DSL December 15 through January 15
                          $5.85         Paypal fees (income = $122)
                         $38.31         Winter personal property taxes
                         $14.95         Renewal of grex.org
                   ------------
                        $430.27

Ending Balance        $3,226.84

Our current balance breaks down as follows:

$2,970.30               General Fund
  $173.99               Silly Hat Fund
   $60.00               Spare Parts Fund
   $22.55               Infrastructure Fund

The money is distributed like this:

  $338.57   Checking account
$2,888.27   Savings account earning 0.55% interest annually

We had two new members in December (blaise and nharmon).  We are currently 
at 70 members, 65 of whom are paid through at least January 15th.  (The 
others expired recently and are in a grace period.)

Notes:

- Grex pays personal property taxes on all the stuff it owns.  About 2/3 of 
the taxes are paid in the summer, and 1/3 in the winter.

- It's been my honor to be your treasurer for the last 4 years, and for 8 of 
the last 9 years.  This is my last report - I'll be handing over all the 
data and the duties to whomever the board elects later this month.

My parting thoughts: Grex survives solely on good will.  Grex can only exist 
if people care enough about it, and feel positively enough toward it, to 
contribute their time and their money.  Since its inception, I think, there 
has been a danger that Grex will descend into a whirlpool of self-loathing 
and ennui.

It's survived largely because there has been a core group of people who 
cared enough to try to make it something else.  That means contributing 
money and time, and it also means entering items and responses to counter 
those that eat away at our community.  And sometimes it means fighting the 
good fight, when people have sought to destroy us.

There are more of us here who want Grex to survive than there are people who 
want it destroyed.  Sometimes it doesn't seem that way, if we measure the 
balance of constructive versus destructive posts.  But if you count people,
the positives win hands down.

My parting wish is that if you care about Grex, if you want it to survive, 
you'll act, at least once in while, to help it be a healthy community.  If 
everyone who cares does a little bit (becomes a member, contributes ideas in 
garage, becomes a staff member, or ignores a twit, for example), Grex should 
have no problem staying alive and vibrant.

But, don't get me wrong, there is a real danger that the bastards will wear 
us down.  Our membership has eroded during the last 3 years, and we have 
lost a lot of money over that time.  That's *not* healthy.  The board is 
working to cut expenses, but don't count on that to be the end of the 
matter.  If our solution to shrinking income is to shrink what we do, then 
that is the path toward decline.  If everyone starts to feel like it's 
someone else's job to keep Grex alive, then Grex will die.

I've done my time, and will take a break now, and try to write my thesis 
this year.  If it goes well, and I have a Ph.D. in a year, then maybe I'll 
run for the board again.  Who knows.  I've put a lot of myself into this job 
over the last 9 years, and it's time for someone else to have a turn.

So, let me say it again: if Grex is important to you, even a little, 
consider doing something more to help it be healthy.  Even (or especially) 
if it's not exactly what you think it should be.  Become a member, 
contribute ideas, contribute time, contribute joy.  All of these are needed 
to make a community.

Thanks to everyone who contributed in December:

arabella, blaise, charcat, dpc, glenda, kd3hw, nharmon, robh, steve, 
witling, wlevak, and one person who asked to remain anonymous.

If you or your institution would like to become a member of Grex, it 
only costs $6/month or $60/year.  Send money to:

Cyberspace Communications
P. O. Box 4432
Ann Arbor, MI 48106-4432

If you pay by cash or money order, please include a photocopy of some 
form of ID.  I can't add you to the rolls without ID.  (If you pay 
with a personal check that has your name pre-printed on it, we 
consider that a good enough ID.)  Type !support or see 
http://www.cyberspace.org/member.html for more info.
56 responses total.

#1 of 56 by mary on Mon Jan 3 23:57:39 2005:

For me, it's people like Mark that make Grex special and worthwhile.
Thank you, so much, Mark.  Your comments are right on the mark.

Grex is so much more than what is most obvious.


#2 of 56 by twenex on Tue Jan 4 00:36:57 2005:

Hear, hear. Although I'm sure many people would say that not all of my posts
are positive (including myself), I'm one of the people who wants Grex to
endure.


#3 of 56 by spooked on Tue Jan 4 00:43:28 2005:

Thank you, Mark - you are clear-minded, hard-working, and a true inspiration.

As someone who is in the middle of his PhD thesis write-up, I wish you the 
very best during this mammoth task - but, I know you will succeed with your 
application and attention to detail.

Thank you again :)




#4 of 56 by charcat on Tue Jan 4 03:06:59 2005:

Thanks for all your hard work Mark, you will be hard to replace I'm sure.


#5 of 56 by jep on Tue Jan 4 03:18:48 2005:

Thanks, Mark.


#6 of 56 by dpc on Tue Jan 4 14:24:13 2005:

Thanks, Mark.  You have done a marvelous job.  Big shoes to fill.


#7 of 56 by i on Wed Jan 5 03:52:05 2005:

Thank you, aruba, and best of fortune with your thesis.


#8 of 56 by albaugh on Wed Jan 5 04:48:29 2005:

There can't be too many thanks given to aruba.  And that goes for the rest
of the baff, including janc, mary, gelinas, and many others.  Thanks for all
you have done, and continue to do to keep grex running.  Whether or not it
remains a place worth supporting is TBD and largely in the eye of the
beholder.  I think that most would still say YES!  :-)


#9 of 56 by jjnoyles on Sun Jan 9 10:27:29 2005:

0.55% interest??  Sheesh!  The Internet bank NetBank gives me 1.9% 
annually on my Money Market account!  It may have just gone up in 
the last few months, but I know it's never been less than 1%, and 
you don't need a lot of money to get this rate, which is their 
lowest.

Check out www.netbank.com for more details.


#10 of 56 by jjnoyles on Sun Jan 9 10:32:50 2005:

NetBank has the following benefits:

     No monthly service charge with an average monthly balance of
     $500 or more

     Interest compounds daily and is credited monthly 

     Free first box of personalized checks

     Free online statements

     Free ATM card available

     No minimum balance is required to earn interest

     Access your account via computer, telephone, wireless PDA or 
     WAP phone

     Account may be used as overdraft protection on your NetBank 
     Checking account
----------
I know I'm new here (just a few hours), but when I saw how little 
was earned on the savings, I had to speak up.

Shutting up now...


#11 of 56 by aruba on Sun Jan 9 15:39:16 2005:

It is a pretty sucky rate we have, that's for sure.

A while back Grex decided that we wanted to be conservative with our
savings, and that money markets were just a bit too risky.  Because, after
all, a money market is an investment, and its value can potentially
decrease.

Perhaps it's time to revisit that decision.  But we don't really have enough
cash reserves for it to make much of a difference.

Juan - thanks for contributing ideas!  They are most certainly welcome here.


#12 of 56 by keesan on Sun Jan 9 17:50:10 2005:

Grex also decided against a 5% CD - because it was not insured?  


#13 of 56 by jp2 on Sun Jan 9 18:27:11 2005:

This response has been erased.



#14 of 56 by mary on Sun Jan 9 21:00:13 2005:

Right, but with a CD your money is locked up for a period of time, 
years worth of time usually.  

Grex's money needs to be safe and readily available.


#15 of 56 by jp2 on Sun Jan 9 21:03:19 2005:

This response has been erased.



#16 of 56 by mary on Sun Jan 9 21:15:21 2005:

I wouldn't the little money Grex has tied up at all.  Not even for 
one month.  That money should be available to keep Grex up and 
running.  

But I love how this discussion comes up from time to time.  It's a 
little like thinking about what you'll do with all those lottery 
winnings you'll have, someday.


#17 of 56 by mary on Sun Jan 9 21:15:56 2005:

s/wouldn't for/wouldn't want


#18 of 56 by cross on Sun Jan 9 21:36:51 2005:

That's you, Mary.  Personally, I'd like to see grex make a little money
by putting $1000 or so into a CD.


#19 of 56 by mary on Sun Jan 9 23:49:33 2005:

Okay, let's think it through.  That's about half the money we have.  
Say we sink $1,000 into a CD, 90 days, paying 3%.  That's about the 
best deal I can find with my quick 30 second internet search.  At 
the end of each ninety day period we'll be ahead (drum roll here)... 
$7.50.

Wow, let me catch my breath.  And for that $7.50 the treasurer will 
need to keep an eye on yet another account and we'll have to hope 
nothing goes wrong and we need that money to keep Grex online.  If 
we did need to get at it sooner, well, I'm not sure what the penalty 
would be, but I'd bet it would eat away at our awesome profits 
pretty damn fast.

Half our income, tied up for 90 days at a time, for $7.50.

Are you really advocating we do this?


#20 of 56 by cross on Mon Jan 10 00:47:32 2005:

I guess I just don't see the problem.  Have we really needed to get at
our money *that quickly* in the past?  What could happen that could possibly
cost use $1000?  We could buy a whole new Grex machine for what we'd have
left in savings.  Let's seriously evaluate the risk here: it's just not
that great.

Am I seriously advocating an account that earns more interest than the
savings account we have now?  No, not really.  It would be nice, but our
financial situation isn't so dire that I feel it necessary.  But, on the
other hand, I'm not willing to dismiss ideas out of hand.


#21 of 56 by marcvh on Mon Jan 10 01:06:47 2005:

Logistically it increases the burden on the treasurer to manage the CD
investment, and when rollover time comes around to either allow it
to roll over or not if we think we might need the money, with a penalty
for not acting within a fairly narrow time window.  I guess this
would be up to whomever becomes treasurer but if we value his/her time
at all it seems unlikely to be worth it.


#22 of 56 by jp2 on Mon Jan 10 02:18:49 2005:

This response has been erased.



#23 of 56 by aruba on Mon Jan 10 04:33:10 2005:

What Marc says is correct.  We did have a CD at TCF for a while, and it
worked like this: you could buy a CD for any number of months.  Most of the
possible periods had pretty low rates.  But there were a few periods which
were "on sale" - they had a much better rate.  We bought one of those.  The
thing was, the periods that were on sale changed once in a while; so 8
months might be on sale at one point, and then a while later it's not, but
6 months is on sale instead.  However, if you bought an 8-month CD when it
was on sale, it will automatically renew for another 8 months unless you go
down to the bank within a certain one-week windo and tell them you don't
want that.  And if it renews, it will no longer be at the special high rate,
but rather at the standard, sucky rate.

So buying CDs requires the treasurer to keep on his toes.  It's not a great
hardship, but still, I feel like it's a big enough job already.  But if
someone wants to be Grex's CFO and do the legwork to move money around, then
hey, it might be worth the extra $7.50 per quarter.


#24 of 56 by charcat on Mon Jan 10 04:50:24 2005:

Couldn't the treasurer be reimbursed say $20 an hour for time and travel
expenses to do the job. ;-)


#25 of 56 by mary on Mon Jan 10 11:50:30 2005:

(I'd love to see the personal finances of some of those advising 
Grex.)

Yes, we could pay the treasurer for this time.  Counting driving, 
parking, banking and return, that's about an hour a renewal.  Four 
times a year.  $80 to the treasurer.  $28 for Grex. 


#26 of 56 by tod on Mon Jan 10 13:05:42 2005:

re #25
 (I'd love to see the personal finances of some of those advising
 Grex.)

Who in particular?


#27 of 56 by keesan on Mon Jan 10 16:23:38 2005:

A five-year CD paid about 5% at the time and the penalty for early withdrawal
was not very high and after half a year or so you would be ahead even if you
withdrew early.  I thought the objection was to the lack of insurance but some
people also felt it would be immoral to withdraw early.  


#28 of 56 by aruba on Mon Jan 10 17:47:05 2005:

I'm not sure about immoral, but I think maybe unethical.  Some people will
disagree.  I certainly was afraid that withdrawing money early might not be
as simple as saying we wanted to and paying the penalty.  I suspected there
might be hoops to jump through and other obstacles, and that we might ruin
our credit rating (or some other statistic about us.)  And that even if we
understood the rules at the time we bought the CD, they might change by the
end.

But, I don't really know about any of that.  If anyone has expeience with
cashing in a CD early, I'd like to hear about it.


#29 of 56 by tod on Mon Jan 10 18:03:41 2005:

You pay tax on it and any penalty fees the bank has. That's the sum of it.


#30 of 56 by cross on Mon Jan 10 18:04:52 2005:

Regarding #25; You know, Mary, that was just a rude thing to say.  And you
seem to say rude things with surprising frequency.  If someone has advice,
even if you disagree with it, why not thank them for their opinion, and
move on?  Why the continual stream of snide comments?


#31 of 56 by mfp on Mon Jan 10 21:50:08 2005:

[this, by the way, let me remind you, is because of the rude things mary said
to cross that made him <s>resign</s> from staff, but it can only come out now,
when he doesn't have anything PERSONAL riding on it.].


#32 of 56 by mary on Mon Jan 10 22:22:36 2005:

Play nice, everyone. ;-)


#33 of 56 by jp2 on Tue Jan 11 00:03:00 2005:

This response has been erased.



#34 of 56 by lowclass on Tue Jan 11 03:00:39 2005:

        It does, as mary states, come down to one simple fact. We're staffed
by volunteers. Just how much time and money do YOU think they should pay for
the priveledge?

 It's MUCH easier to talk about what somebody ELSE should do, than do it
yourself.


#35 of 56 by cross on Tue Jan 11 03:10:15 2005:

Regarding #32; Hey, please apply that advice to yourself!


#36 of 56 by charcat on Tue Jan 11 05:11:32 2005:

Regarding #24; I hope no one thought I was serious, just my attempt at
humor.


#37 of 56 by naftee on Sat Jan 15 09:39:37 2005:

mary remmers is a kerl


#38 of 56 by jp2 on Sat Jan 15 15:33:28 2005:

This response has been erased.



#39 of 56 by cyklone on Mon Jan 17 23:23:25 2005:

They can't wrap their brains around the fact that supporting anti-restoration
of the valerie and jep items was truly immoral and unethical. It's an
Orwellian definition issue they need to work through.


#40 of 56 by jp2 on Tue Jan 18 03:05:49 2005:

This response has been erased.



#41 of 56 by janc on Tue Jan 18 04:01:26 2005:

I completely don't understand what jp2 is talking about.

(1)  Grex didn't crash.
(2)  If it had crashed, how would that have proved which empirical claim?

Before I attempt to explain why people might think that "breaking a CD"
would be immoral or inethical, I should note that I personally don't think
that it would be.  However, I like to think I have some capacity of under-
standing points of view different from my own, so I'll try to help you out.

Let's say two party's agree to a contract.  Party A later invokes a clause
in the contract the consequences of which are seriously detrimental to
party B.  Has party A acted in a manner immoral or inethical.

Business logic says "no".  Party B agreed to the contract, and has nothing
to complain about so long as party A is within the terms of the contract.

Personal logic isn't so clear.  Whatever business logic says, party B is
likely to stop regarding party A as a friend.  Party B may feel stabbed
in the back.

The question of which kind of logic applies to which situation is frequently
difficult.  Personally, even in my business dealings, I do not care to push
my own advantage too far at the expense of others.  My concept of an ideal
business deal is one where everyone wins.  Some people, however, go much
further than I in prefering to apply what I called "personal logic" to all
their dealings.  I think that end of the spectrum is where the idea that
things like "breaking a CD" is immoral come from.

Personally, I think in this particular instance, it just doesn't apply.
The bank wrote the CD contract.  I'd be astonished if there is any clause
in it that isn't advantageous to them.  Withdrawing early for some penalty
is just exercising one of the options the bank offered you at the time you
signed the contract.  If they didn't offer that option, very likely they'd
sell many fewer of them.

So, I don't agree with this particular way of thinking, but I do, in a way,
admire it.


#42 of 56 by aruba on Tue Jan 18 08:17:29 2005:

Jan explained that better than I could have.  I guess I apply personal
ethics to all my dealings, for better or for worse.


#43 of 56 by keesan on Tue Jan 18 15:53:38 2005:

I think the penalty was something like losing half a year's interest on the
amount withdrawn.  So if you got a 5 year CD and withdrew some money after
a year, and it was paying 5%, and a savings account was paying 2.5%, you
would be even.  If the CD paid 3% and savings 0.5%, you would be way ahead.
If a current CD pays 3% and a savings account 1%, withdrawal after 1 year
instead of 5 would net you .5% more than leaving it in savings.  (3% minus
1.5% = 1.5% as opposed to 1%).  What are current rates and someone please
correct me if the half year is wrong.  

I thought the major objection was lack of insurance on the investment.
Or something of the sort - some escape clause that the bank tells me has never
been using, in case of national emergencies.


#44 of 56 by mfp on Wed Jan 19 00:42:30 2005:

Re. 41:  If you had an capacity at all to understand other people's point(s),
blunts, etc. of view, you would have realized that Jamie was just being silly
and taking a cheap shot at empirical methods of producing/reducing evidence.


#45 of 56 by janc on Wed Jan 19 02:21:12 2005:

I guess Jamie and you are in my blindspot, because I understand neither his
comment nor your explanation of it.


#46 of 56 by jp2 on Wed Jan 19 03:53:22 2005:

This response has been erased.



#47 of 56 by mfp on Wed Jan 19 03:55:18 2005:

The best test of any theory is its predictive power.


#48 of 56 by naftee on Wed Jan 19 08:23:39 2005:

I predict that the GreX CD will be a MuchMusic hit.


#49 of 56 by tod on Sun Jan 23 16:27:33 2005:

Why does anyone want to kill the CD?  Isn't it an investment?


#50 of 56 by gelinas on Mon Jan 24 04:19:59 2005:

Yes, were we to own one, it would be an investment.  But sometimes,
investments have to be liquidated.  In general, it is better to liquidate
at maturity.  However, that is not always possible.  Still, you don't want
to get a reputation for cashing out early.


#51 of 56 by marcvh on Mon Jan 24 04:57:43 2005:

What would happen if you "got a reputation for cashing out early"?  At
the next nonprofit organization dance, all the other nonprofits would
gather around and make fun of you for your "premature withdrawal"?


#52 of 56 by gelinas on Mon Jan 24 05:32:37 2005:

Banks might be less willing to sell you a CD.


#53 of 56 by tod on Mon Jan 24 06:35:18 2005:

That is not my experience.  They still get their dough.
If it were such a bad thing, they wouldn't allow it.


#54 of 56 by janc on Mon Jan 24 18:10:57 2005:

In any case, if banks (strangely) became reluctant to sell us CD's then we'd
be no worse off than we are now, when we aren't buying CD's for other reasons.

I have two reservations about buying CD's.  First, I don't think Grex should
normally be sitting on a large amount of cash.  Our money is donated to us
by users, who would probably prefer to see it invested in the system than to
see it deposited in the bank.  So we should not be sitting on more than a
short term cushion, which isn't really a lot of money and isn't going to earn
a lot no matter how you invest it.  If we have a big disaster and need a lot
of money, then we should expect to have to raise it from our users.  Grex's
real financial cushion rests in the good will of our user community, not in
our bank account.  If we ever had enough money that we could confidently put
a substantial sum away for a long period of time, then I think that money
should be invested in Grex, not put away.  Grex should invest in Grex.

Second, it adds extra work for the treasurer, who already has plenty to do.
For the limited amount of money it earns us, this may not be worth the bother.


#55 of 56 by tod on Mon Jan 24 18:33:25 2005:

I also believe there is some sort of income threshold where Grex would be
expected to start making voluntary disclosures about its operations to the
Michigan State tax enforcement squad of auditors.
They kind of keep an eye on non-profits that start operating at a higher
level of liquid capital than the previous year.



#56 of 56 by jesuit on Wed May 17 02:15:22 2006:

TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE


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