Here is the treasurer's report on Cyberspace Communications, Inc. finances
through August 31st, 2004.
Beginning Balance $3,580.31
Credits $150.00 Member contributions
$2.00 Payment for a Grex Handbook
$1.41 Interest on our savings account
------------
$153.41
Debits $84.43 Pumpkin Rent for September
$61.02 Electricity for August
$91.54 Phone Bill
$135.00 DSL August 15 through September 15
$3.99 Paypal fees (income = $92)
------------
$375.98
Ending Balance $3,357.74
Our current balance breaks down as follows:
$3,101.20 General Fund
$173.99 Silly Hat Fund
$60.00 Spare Parts Fund
$22.55 Infrastructure Fund
The money is distributed like this:
$475.30 Checking account
$2,882.44 Savings account earning 0.55% interest annually
We had no new members in August. We are currently at 73 members, 65
of whom are paid through at least September 15th. (The others expired
recently and are in a grace period.)
Notes:
- I was away for most of August. Thanks to gelinas for paying the
bills.
- I moved $500 from the savings account to the checking account.
Thanks to everyone who contributed in August:
bookie, mooncat, n8rxs, witling, and one person who didn't give his
login.
If you or your institution would like to become a member of Grex, it
only costs $6/month or $60/year. Send money to:
Cyberspace Communications
P. O. Box 4432
Ann Arbor, MI 48106-4432
If you pay by cash or money order, please include a photocopy of some
form of ID. I can't add you to the rolls without ID. (If you pay
with a personal check that has your name pre-printed on it, we
consider that a good enough ID.) Type !support or see
http://www.cyberspace.org/member.html for more info.
80 responses total.
The erosion would seem to be continuing...
Yes, we're not doing well, financially. Becuse I was out of town for most of August, I didn't send a lot of reminders I would have sent otherwise, which accounts for some of the loss of income. That should carry over to September. But even so, the membership numbers are lower than they've been since 1994.
The sporadic downtimes probably haven't helped much, either.
The "Personal favors for favored persons" vote didn't help any, either. Why the hell would a non-favored person donate to fund someone else's personal playpen?
cyklone, blow yourself out, and give it a rest, already.
re #4 Even though there are some hobbyhorse hogs, I don't subscribe to the idea that Grex is solely their property. The vandalism of Jan Wolter's girlfriend was unfortunate but I try not to let that rain on the idea that Grex is worth saving from decay both administratively and hardware wise.
The problem may be that something, though worthy, which is not accessible on a reliable basis might not survive.
Maybe Cyberspace Inc should consider going colo in order to keep the membership from being shut out and turned away.
I think that most of the board and staff are willing to consider colo at this point, if we can find a good enough deal. The last time we looked into it, it was going to cost more than what we pay now, which is hard to swallow.
What about colo on the host's hardware?
Is that more expensive?
Regarding #9; Well, wait a sec; colo space providing vastly more than grex needs was going to cost a lot more. I suspect that colo supporting just what we need to be significantly less expensive.
re #12- that would be wonderful- if we can find it.
Or we could move the community to an forum-hosting entity, drop the hardware, drop our software, drop insurance and rental space and have no need for volunteer staff other than those fairwitnessing the conferences. Of course we'd also be dropping dial-in capability and access to unix utilites and disk space. Ultimately, I see this in Grex's future.
M-Net is colo What's Grex's excuse?
Re. 14: Why are you a pessimist?
I'm not a pessimist. Grex was configured the way it was when it first opened in 1991 because that's what we needed to be and could pull off. Lots of changes since then. It's not doom and gloom to recognize that and be willing to adjust to changing times, needs and available support. I'm actually quite positive about the community and feel we'll survive even if the context changes.
re #17 Ditto
Re #5: Is that the best answer you can come up with? What a weak mind you must have. Your mother must be quite proud.
I would have to disagree with Mary on the idea of turning Grex into just another web forum, with no unix access. My observation from party is that the few new people we're getting came here originally looking for a "free Unix shell." A tiny percentage of those people are interested in community and communication, and that's where the new users who stick around are coming from.
I know I wouldn't be here if Grex had been a web forum when I arrived.
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Re: #20 They can come here *thrilled* to find unix access but if they aren't skilled in unix system administration and willing to volunteer and chunk of time, well, we still have a problem. Chipping in with support would also be nice.
(I have repeatedly offered to chip in!)
It is an interesting issue to be sure. The hard truth is that if we find we dont have the resources to continue as we are, we have to do something else. It is true that some of those options arent as nice as what we have now. But they are cheaper and would require much less staffing. We might find we have no choice but to go that route. And we might find that the change isnt as bad as predicted.
mdw and STeve aren't around anymore to fix the box and popcorn lost her mind altogether..seems like alternatives should be entertained for logical reasons
What happened to mdw and STeve, exactly? Lose interest?
What happened is other obligations, either family or health or jobs, or all of it. STeve is still around. But you know what, it's okay to lose interest too. Just because you give generously of your time for a long time doesn't mean you are obligated to do so forever. That's always been true and it's wrong to hold a sense of entitlement over how our volunteers spend their time.
re #28 I agree and think that is why flexibility needs to be examined in Grex's existence in order to survive.
Did I say anything in #27 that required a defence a la #28?
I think Mary was responding more to #26.
I guess when I think about it I have assumed that the people who have stuck around grex have been those who are attracted by what grex is. I'm willing to be proven wrong, that it's "the community" that keeps them here, regardless of the underlying technology. But I believe, at least for myself, if grex just become some conference SIG somewhere on some system, part of a "corporate takeover/buy-out", that it will cease being grex, and will therefore cease being something I'm interested in continuing participation with. I am also admitting openly that if reliable access to grex remains dubious, I will discontinue or greatly curtail participation.
I wouldn't be around if Grex went corporate. I'd stick around if the machinery were changed around a bit to support reliable connectivity though... There would still have to be a "party" and "bbs" though and it would have to not suck (i.e. no GUI lameness)
I'd give money if and only if GreX removed the ID rule
I think the confusion here is because the sense of what Grex is includes more than the design of the community, but the fact that it is an entirely self-contained and self-controlled entity, financially and technologically. By that I refer to its occupying its own space in the physical and Internet worlds both. The power that the communty has to shape Grex is limited only by imagination, law, and the dynamics of Grex's democratic style governance. A big part of its history is resident in the experiences of members of the community who dealt directly with the physical and codebase components of Grex. The makeup of the community has shifted largely away from those who literally created it, and like with most things, those community participants whose behavior makes it clear that they least value the community that Grex WAS are those who came later and inherited Grex without contributing personal time and effort in either its construction or governance. What has typically been characterized in an us-them dichotomy as Grexers versus M-Netters is really a dichotomy between "Old Grex"ers and "New Grex"ers, or between those who built Grex, and took up care and management of Grex to nurture it into adulthood and those who moved in like a college frat into a beautiful old house and trashed what was there (or created something new -- depending on your viewpoint) simply because they could -- or didn't know any better...
The "Old Grex"ers are more like a frat, dipshit. I've been on Grex since its inception and it was always plagued with xenophobic redtape. The ID rule being one of those fine examples.
And I'm a newcomer who felt like there was *no* us versus them mentality, and dthat it was not that hard to be welcomed into the community.
Okay, I keep seeing this complaint about connectivity and reliability. Can anyone tell me the last time Grex was down for any length of time OTHER than the last couple weeks? We had two things happen closely together- this doesn't make for a trend. Tod, how is the ID rule xenophobic?
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Yeah. I'll probably give money now, but only 'cause now I've got a credit card or two waiting for me at some bank or something somehwere and can send money without hassle, even though I still don't like having to give my ID, even though I've freely given out my name and address and probably even phone number numerous times. BAsically: fuck you.
re #38 Grex was down a bunch in May, wasn't it? I find it a bit hypocritical that free speech is touted and even a blurb about the ACLU actions are on the website, yet staff has deleted items and ID is required for membership on an "open" system. Yes, its xenophobic. Anyone that has observed the fiasco with popcorn's actions being condoned by Grex would see how xenophobic it is. Common arguments "She is a friend of mine" rather than "what is good for governance of actions on an open system". Why is membership tied to "ill will"?
It's not xenophobia, it's identity-theftophobia. And like murderophobia, that's a good thing. To be honest, I'm not sure where you get the idea that it has anything to do with hatred of foreigners.
Locals are favored when the decision making processes ensue. Haven't you noticed that by the board minutes?
I find minutes boring; I don't read them. Apart from anything else, it's usually bleeding obvious which among us are the foreigners and which are the all-American baseball players with perfect teeth, so why should an ID requirement make any diff whatsoever?
re #41- you do realize that as 'company' Grex has to be responsible, on some level, for it's members?
re #45 Are you referring to the system being down so Members couldn't access it? ;)
I haven't noticed M-net's no ID needed policy causing any problems.
re 47- so you're saying that it never will cause problems?
re #48 We have a staff that keeps an eye on the system over at M-NET so problems usually don't last long.
re #49- Oh really? So M-net doesn't ever have periods of downtime?
Putting words in my mouth doesn't hide your defensiveness about the ID rule for membership on Grex. My comments state that our attentive staff on M-Net is sufficient enough to not warrant ID checks or background checks or invasion of privacy in order for someone to be a paying member of Arbornet.
re #50 Are you saying that Grex's downtime is solved by knowing the private information of the Grex membership? Is a member of Cyberspace tinkering with the outdated DSL modem at the pumpkin and you're somehow able to summon the secret Grex cops to stop such mischief?
Grex is not doing any background checks or ID checks on anyone. (Though we have received fraudulent ID on at least one occasion, and rejected it.) Tod - If you don't like any of Grex's rules, the thing to do is make a motion to change the rule. Then we vote on it, and if enough people agree with you, the rule will be changed.
re #52- I'm saying the ID rule and downtime are not at all related.
re 52 Very funny. I don't like the rule, but I can't vote on it. I'm sure you know why not. AND don't say it's because I don't want to give money to GreX.
re #53 Mark, the thing to do before making a motion is to create a stir in order to muster enough interest in changing anything. Grex historically does not attract interest in change. I'm also engaging in a discovery process with this. I'm not at all convinced the ID requirement holds much weight as a safety net for Grex.
"Grex historically does not attract interest in change." I engaged in a discovery process and discovered that over the years, 12 of 19 member proposals passed. (Including one that enabled Todd and other non-local members to run for the Board.) That's an average of almost one per year. http://cyberspace.org/local/grex/votes.html
re #57 Were it not for mynxcat's incessant whining prior to the motion, I doubt it would have gone anywhere.
I believe I was the one who proposed that motion, and I don't remember whining at all. Tod - give us some examples of systems that allow people to telnet through them, anonymously. I know you mentioned M-Net and the Armenian Freenet. What others are there?
King County Library System. I wish I could come up with more but I stopped bouncing pseudos about 10 years ago and have noticed most forums going the way of web browser.
There're also guest.sailor.lib.md.edu and rootshell.be, and plenty of places to telnet anonymously if you look around you. LIKE< WHETHER IT"S WIRELESS OR WHATEVER OR ON SOME UNIVERSITY OR WHATEVER OR SOMETHING< YOU KNOW?! JUST THAT NO_ONE"S GOING TO HVEA MUCH OF A PROBLEM TELNETTING ANONYMOUSLY.
Long live sailor.
I get "Unknown host guest.sailor.lib.md.edu" when I try to ping it. md.edu is apparently the University of Muldova. Speaking for myself, I don't want to take sites in Armenia and Muldova as examples of how Grex should behave, any more than I'd emulate them in anything else. They exist in a different legal and social climate than we do. rootshell.be is in Belgium, which strikes me as a little closer to home, but still not all the way there. Is the King County library system in Seattle, Tod? Do you have an URL? I'd like to point out that allowing anonymous telnet from Grex means allowing mfp & company to telnet through Grex, thus making us the target of anger from those downstream when vandalism is comitted.
Oh. Sorry. It's guest.sailor.lib.md.us. I was just in an edu sort of mood.
rootshell.be does indeed let me ssh out as soon as I log into my account for the first time. However, they require an alternate email address to which they sent my username and password, so they have somewhere else they can point a finger if I do something bad. It's not much security, but it's more than Grex would have if we allowed (essentiallly) anonymous telnet.
Moldova is probably the correct spelling unless they changed recently. Once it was Moldavia.
Aren't they 2 different things?
Nope. (Unless pre- and post-Communist Mold-place are).
Romanians don't say "Moldavia"
What was the country in "The Mouse That Roared"? ;-)
The Dutchy of Grand Fenwick.
That's pretty close to mole-davey-eh.
Long live polish sailor.
When I telnet to guest.sailor.lib.md.us I get a menu shell, which doesn't (obviously) have a telnet option. It has Lynx, but Lynx is configured not to accept telnet:// URLs. How do you telnet out?
You go find a telnet:// and follow it. Grex has such a link on its website, but I think they may have blocked Sailor or something.
Yeah, try the m-net link.
M-Net hasn't banned Sailor?! Whoa!
Whoa!
I haven't been reading this for a while, so I have some comments heaped up. I don't think moving to a web-only interface would be a good thing. I'd expect to lose about half our users. I do think we should look for a non-commerical colo kind of arrangement - something similar in spirit to what HVCN has. I think I am getting close to getting nextGrex up. I wish more people were working on it. I don't really wish I had more time to work on it. I'm afraid I hate this kind of work. Porting software. Dead boring. I'd rather develop new software. I have very little faith in claims like "if you would only make such and such change in policy, then I'd start sending money in." I think there is a lot that could be done to make Grex better. What's usually lacking is people willing to do work. Plenty of people willing to talk about what other people should do.
TROGG IS DAVID BLAINE
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