Grex Music3 Conference

Item 132: Learning the Piano

Entered by mynxcat on Wed Dec 18 20:35:51 2002:

mynxcat Jan 10 19:26:20 2004 S M mynxcat Jan 10 19:26:20 2004 S M mynxcat J
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42 responses total.

#1 of 42 by dbratman on Wed Dec 18 23:21:14 2002:

This is a keyboard which can play chords, I presume?  The first 
electronic keyboard I got could only play one note at a time.

I am a two-fingered pianist: I play piano the way some folks type.  I 
admire the skill of anyone who can play full parts simultaneously with 
both hands.  I also admire the skill of anyone who can pat his head and 
rub his belly at the same time, though that is less artistically moving 
an effect.


#2 of 42 by jaklumen on Thu Dec 19 07:17:20 2002:

resp:2 How about playing and singing at the same time?  I acquired that 
during my years of accompaning for church services and education 
classes.

resp:1 E key a little loud?  Playing that key too hard?  Unless your 
keyboard has touch sensitivity, I doubt it.

Beware that the action of electronic pianos and acoustic ones tend to 
be very different.  Electronic piano keys generally respond to a fairly 
light touch; you will be in for a surprise should you play on an 
acoustic, more so because the action of the keys might vary with its 
age.  I remember at least one concert I did where the piano keys were 
really stiff.

Beginning piano books for adults are available-- Alfred has one.  It 
moves through concepts a bit more quickly, and addresses the concept of 
chord positions when simple fingering sufficed for children.

Glad to hear you're getting piano lessons.  Having a teacher is 
invaluable even when you've got skills-- everyone can use a coach and a 
mentor.  If you can find one, get a teacher who can arrange and compose-
- they can specifically address problems with your skills by writing if 
they can't find existing exercises or repetoire.

My roomie wants to learn but hasn't been very diligent in asking for my 
instruction.  I explained the clefs to her so she could better 
understand how to read standard notation.


#3 of 42 by remmers on Thu Dec 19 14:09:36 2002:

Glad to hear you've got the piano and are enjoying it.

I looked up the Roland EP-75 on the web.  It features touch sensitivity
and weighted action, so key response is probably at least approximately
like that of an "acoustic" piano, although jaklumen is most likely 
correct that the touch is somewhat lighter.  

There's a picture of the instrument at
http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/SNAMM97/Roland/ep-75.jpg

Did it come with a sustaining pedal?  If not, you'll probably want 
to add one at some point.


#4 of 42 by mynxcat on Thu Dec 19 15:46:30 2002:

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#5 of 42 by albaugh on Thu Dec 19 18:12:57 2002:

Some things you'll need to "master":

1) You need to learn to "count".  That is, to recognize (when reading music)
the "values" of all the notes *and* rests, and make sure to play the music
accurately with the right rythmns.

2) They are "boring", but you need to learn your scales - they train your
fingers to "go the right places" even when you're not playing scales.  And
you'll need to play scales simultaneously on both hands - good training for
when you advance to playing both hands of a music composition.


#6 of 42 by remmers on Thu Dec 19 18:31:45 2002:

To that I would add:

3) You need to master patience.  Playing music is a synthesis of a number
of different skills, and they won't all come easily or fall into place at
the same time.  They come with practice (and more practice, and yet more
practice).

Sounds like you're motivated to practice, though.  From your description
of the lesson, it sounds like your musical training is off to a good
start too.


#7 of 42 by mynxcat on Thu Dec 19 18:37:47 2002:

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#8 of 42 by jaklumen on Fri Dec 20 08:10:03 2002:

resp:4 I recognize the name James Bastien-- I've used his books.

resp:7 Yes, play your scales slow until you master the fingering.  
Fingering is so crucial to smooth playing.  *chuckle* Eventually you'll 
find out what the Hanon scale studies are all about.  I'm glad I wasn't 
a piano major-- I would have had to master them eventually.  I replaced 
them with the Segovia scale studies, hehe (for guitar).  Hmmm.. lost my 
last copy.  I'll need to get a new one.

Remmers is right about patience.  I really had to learn it all over 
again when I started guitar.  I had forgotten that my piano skills were 
developed over years.  Still, I had the love and used it to get where I 
am now-- I've had to work without an instructor and I am so ready to 
get one again.  Don't lose that love.

One thing that you will eventually want to do is get some recordings of 
master pianists to get a sense of expression.  If you can view concerts 
on television, so much the better-- you can study their technique.  But 
this is down the road.


#9 of 42 by mynxcat on Fri Dec 20 14:53:39 2002:

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#10 of 42 by albaugh on Fri Dec 20 16:31:12 2002:

Re: speed:  *Accuracy* is far more important than speed, and here is why: 
A music teacher of mine once taught me something I have found to be true:
By repeating your mistakes, your are actually "practicing" your mistakes, and
you therefore get "good" at your mistakes and they can then become permanent.
That is, if you charge right through the easy stuff and then always slow down
or stop at the hard part, your "muscle memory" will learn and remember that
behavior, and it will be a plague to cure.  So with your scales, play them
sickeningly slow until you can plan them accurately every time.  *Then*
increase the speed, bit by bit, until you can play them accurately at the
higher speed, and so on.


#11 of 42 by mynxcat on Fri Dec 20 16:41:18 2002:

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#12 of 42 by scott on Fri Dec 20 17:49:32 2002:

I don't know if you need a metronome yet, but what you could do is just use
it when practicing scales.  Start by counting 2 or 4 clicks per note in the
scale, and eventually work up to one note per click and beyond.


#13 of 42 by orinoco on Fri Dec 20 22:15:49 2002:

It's useful to be able to play with a metronome.  It's also useful to be able
to play without one.  In my experience, playing with a metronome doesn't
really help your rhythm when you're playing without one, or vice versa --
they're two different skills.


#14 of 42 by cyklone on Fri Dec 20 22:26:50 2002:

Huh? I seriously doubt that to be true or people would have stopped using
metronomes years ago. Indeed, I have run into many musicians who seem to
skip metronome work, as reflected by their serious inability to keep a
steady tempo. And for any group with a *good* drummer, the non-drummers
should be playing along just as if with a metronome. I guess I just don't
understand your point, so maybe you can give some examples. Are you
thinking about recording/performing with a "click track", which is often
done to keep everything in synch with prerecorded tracks (although
sometimes a "click" will be used for initial tracks as well)?



#15 of 42 by scott on Fri Dec 20 22:39:22 2002:

Ditto #14 - playing with a metronome is very useful in when you don't have
a steady beat to play with.  And I've worked with drummers with that problem,
and it sucks.


#16 of 42 by mynxcat on Sat Dec 21 00:02:56 2002:

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#17 of 42 by cyklone on Sat Dec 21 01:36:24 2002:

At some point, yes. When I started playing music, I was in bands with good
drummers almost immediately, so they were my metronomes. Later, when I
wanted to develop better practice habits in non-band situations, I used a
metronome.  There are also a number of tricks you can use when you get
more experienced, like setting the metronome for the back beat (beats 2
and 4 of a four beat bar) or setting it only to hit the first beat (again
out of a four beat bar). Since you aren't playing in a band, you might
want to start right away, for the "good practice" reasons mentioned
before. I would also suggest isolating each hand sometimes and play only
one hand or the other with the metronome. I say this because I have notice
most musicians tend to be slightler faster or slower with one hand or the
other. 

Having said all this, you should also remember that certain styles of
music involve tempo changes and nuances, either as a matter of
interpretation or as called for in a score (mostly in classical music). 
Still, it's a very solid foundation, and most musicians that don't have
rock solid rhythm will always sort of suck no matter what kind of chops
they otherwise develop. 



#18 of 42 by albaugh on Sat Dec 21 02:21:26 2002:

Since scales are boring yet a necessary "evil", you might as well get all the
boring drills "out of the way" at once - after you have learned the scale
fingering and have convinced yourself you can play them repeated correctly
at a snail's pace, maybe that's the time to introduce the metronone.
Set it for a *steady* snail's pace, verify your scale accuracy, and then dare
to increase the tempo a bit.


#19 of 42 by remmers on Sat Dec 21 12:43:04 2002:

Metronome work has been very useful to me.  I have a tendency to speed
up the tempo when I play; practicing with a metronome makes me conscious
of that and thus helps me keep the tempo steady when I'm *not* using
a metronome.


#20 of 42 by jaklumen on Sun Dec 22 07:15:54 2002:

resp:10  Accuracy and avoiding "practicing" mistakes is right on in my 
experience.  It's harder to play slower sometimes, especially when that 
tempo doesn't sound enjoyable, but it's worth it.

A metronome is indeed a useful tool.  Electronic ones will be the most 
consistent.  I'm not sure how useful tapping your foot to the beat is 
alone, but I suppose if you do it with a metronome running you may be 
able to internalize tempo better.  It takes some coordination to do it 
while you're playing, but I'm sure it will help.

resp:9  Teaching skills can be gained only after some time and 
experience.  You're fairly new to this, so you shouldn't expect to be 
able to teach someone right away.


#21 of 42 by cyklone on Sun Dec 22 14:55:02 2002:

BTW, avoid battery operated metronomes and use one that plugs in. I once
had the bizarre experience of listening to my drummer practicing with a
metronome and still slowing down. It damn near drove me nuts until we
figured out the metronome was slowly reducing the tempo as the batteries
drained.



#22 of 42 by mynxcat on Sun Dec 22 15:25:36 2002:

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#23 of 42 by scott on Sun Dec 22 15:33:03 2002:

I've never noticed a problem with my battery-operated metronome - that drummer
must have had some really crude design to actually slow down with low battery
power.

For that matter, I'm not sure I've ever needed to even change the battery in
my metronome.


#24 of 42 by rcurl on Sun Dec 22 17:29:27 2002:

You might enjoy the book

    Piano Lessons: Music, Love, & True Adventures 
    by Noah Adams


#25 of 42 by cyklone on Sun Dec 22 19:41:46 2002:

Re #23: Well, this was about 25 years ago, so hopefully technology and
batteries have improved.


#26 of 42 by dbratman on Sun Dec 22 19:57:27 2002:

About learning the wrong note - my brother learned a particular tune 
from a parody of the song which deliberately included a wrong note.  
Now he can't sing the original song without putting the wrong note in.


#27 of 42 by mynxcat on Sun Dec 22 23:05:29 2002:

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#28 of 42 by mynxcat on Mon Dec 23 15:30:22 2002:

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#29 of 42 by orinoco on Mon Dec 23 19:47:33 2002:

re metronomes:

I see I've misspoken.  I think here's what I meant to say.

Keeping good time in solo playing is one thing.  Playing well with a drummer,
say, or following the tempo of a soloist you're accompanying, that's something
else.  In the end you want to be good at doing both, but getting better at
one doesn't seem to necessarily make you any better at the other.  There are
musicians who are great at following a beat but terrible at keeping the beat
themselves; there are musicians who can keep perfect time on their own but
are terrible at accomodating to other people's playing.  

Practicing with a metronome is great for learning how to play with a
drummer.  And there's other things it's useful for: double-checking your
tempos, gradually increasing the speed of your scales and whatnot, etc. 
But for learning to keep a steady beat on your own (with no drummer, no
click track, no conductor, etc.), practicing with a metronome has always
seemed pretty useless to me. 

Of course, that's just my personal experience, and I'm definitely a
low-level amateur, not a serious musician and certainly not a
professional.  I'd be curious to see what some of the other musicians here
think. 



#30 of 42 by scott on Mon Dec 23 20:57:04 2002:

Using a metronome seems useful for solo play, to me anyway.


#31 of 42 by jaklumen on Tue Dec 24 08:10:21 2002:

Well, Dan, that's why I suggested tapping your foot along with the 
metronome.  When you take the metronome away, keep tapping.  I think 
physically doing it helps internalize your sense of beat.  Or maybe 
following the flashing light on your electronic metronome might work..

There's also the TAP system.. are Midwesterners familiar with it?  It 
was developed in Bellevue (Seattle area) but I would gather many music 
majors should have heard of it.  The old system involved tapping a 
button on a machine with a counter that was sensitive to an audio 
patched tape player.  You would tap out rhythms to various recordings.. 
I remember the theme from Sanford and Son and a selection from Wendy 
Carlos's "Well-Tempered Synthesizer" being among them.

We were stuck with the machines at Central although a company called 
MusicWare bought the rights and reengineered the system to a software 
program.  You should be able to find it online.  It will cost you some 
money unless you can prove you're a teacher or an educational 
institution in need of it.


#32 of 42 by cyklone on Tue Dec 24 14:10:22 2002:

A variation on the "tap along, turn off" method: Pick a recording you know
has rock solid tempo. Count or tap along with it while turning down the
volume for a few seconds, then turn it back up. Gradually increase the
"volume down"  time. If you are still on the beat after ten to thirty
seconds of silence you are well on your way to developing good rhythm. 



#33 of 42 by jor on Tue Dec 24 21:27:29 2002:

        (great item)


#34 of 42 by jaklumen on Tue Dec 24 22:57:05 2002:

Isn't it, though?  Music in action.


#35 of 42 by mynxcat on Wed Dec 25 01:51:18 2002:

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#36 of 42 by jaklumen on Fri Dec 27 08:21:11 2002:

That's all it takes.  And make your practice time count.

Other tips:

Tape record your practicing, and then go back and listen to it with the 
music to pick up your mistakes.

Play duets with your teacher.  There's a lot to be said for ensemble 
experience, and this is a place to start-- you'll be able to rely on a 
teacher's strengths somewhat in tempo and continuity.


#37 of 42 by mynxcat on Thu Jan 9 17:53:26 2003:

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#38 of 42 by albaugh on Thu Jan 9 18:35:06 2003:

C D7 G7 C  :-)


#39 of 42 by mynxcat on Thu Jan 9 19:26:03 2003:

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#40 of 42 by albaugh on Thu Jan 9 19:43:50 2003:

C D7 G7 C is a common chord *progression*.  The notes might be thusly:

C  - G C E G
D7 - A C D F#
G7 - G B D F
C  - G C E


#41 of 42 by mynxcat on Thu Jan 9 19:48:14 2003:

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#42 of 42 by dbratman on Sat Jan 18 00:07:39 2003:

There are some inverted chords there all right.


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